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No right answers to this one, but I am eager to hear opinions. A televised concert segment and a short PM conversation here led me to ask you all about writing solo vs collaboration.
Such a matter of opinion, but as soon as I hear "collaboration" my mind thinks "I am not good enough to write quality songs myself so I have to lean on someone else who will write the song and let me put my name on it."
Sports fans here will remember Elgin Baylor, one of the early great NBA players. He was a high flyer who set the stage for Dr J, then MJ, now LeBron, playing high above the rim and floating through the air.
There is also a lesser known player named Rod Hundley who was about the 10th man on the bench for every team he played on. One of his running gags is to talk about the night he and Baylor teamed up to score 73 points in a game. The joke is that Baylor had 72 and he had a free throw,
That story kind of sums up how I think when I hear "collaborate".
There is someone on Soundcloud who is constantly posting songs where she goes on and on about collaborating with "another writer". Well, the "other writer" writes the song, records it, writes the lyrics, sends it over once with him singing it and once without and she sings his words onto the naked version on a 2 track. And calls that collaborating.
So show of hands. How many of you prefer to drive the whole way yourself?
(Oh, PS. She can't sing. But she's pretty and the guys like her.)
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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Reading the Beatles history and listening to their three Anthologies where past or early versions of their songs were recorded, they used whatever worked. One song that comes to mind was Harrison's While My Guitar Gently Weeps. This song was submitted to the group as an acoustic ballad with three verses. The final details were worked out in the recording studio. Fascinating listening to the evolution of some of these songs. Collaboration is what it is. Often I write a full tune and send it to an old singing buddy for his opinion - if he favours lyric changes or structure changes, I'll consider them . . . . quick changes using BIAB is great . . . and if I use them it is a collab. But if someone suggests I add a bridge - and I do all of the work - then that isn't a collab. Everyone sees it differently. Best just shake your head, steer clear and move on.  I'm curious to know what Noel will have to say, and Sundance and Robert. Ian
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Quote:
if he favours lyric changes or structure changes, I'll consider them
What do you do when he FAVORS them? LOL!!!
The main reason I don't like to do it is that I have an idea in my head and I can't explain it to you but only I will know when the sound matches what is in my head. I will consider advice, which is just what Ian said, but if someone suggests that one line o one verse be phrased differently so the phrasing more closely aligns with the melody and tempo, that is hardly co-writing.
One of my songs that I have posted, The One That Got Away, did not have the 2 measure caesura before the last tag in it until a musician (who's opinion I value and respect beyond depths of explanation) listened to it at my house and suggested it. I recorded it again with that pause in it, listened to many times it both ways, and it stayed. But again, he didn't co write it. In fact, what he "wrote" was 8 beats of silence.
Now, if you and I sit down and write lyrics, sit and go back and forth with a lot of the "how about this progression on the bridges" kind of thing, THAT is co writing and I don't mind it at all because it wasn't my thought to start with. Obviously songwriting teams from the Beatles to Broadway partnered to write wonderful music, but every song at some point comes from one brain and grows from there.
Where I get annoyed is when some media darling superstar has their name as a co writer and you can hear the style and be 100% sure that the other party wrote it all and just allowed the other name to be listed. Stevie Nicks comes to mind. Leather and Lace, Stop Draggin' My Heart Around.... the male half (Henley and Petty) wrote those but they were on her albums, so.... and one of her biggest was Stand Back, written by Prince. It's just the chords from Little Red Corvette with a different groove....
That my dime on the subject. Hope to collect more dimes on this one because I am interested in knowing.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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Quote:
(Oh, PS. She can't sing. But she's pretty and the guys like her.)
Are you kidding?
That's the name of the game.
"Baby, you really have it, you've got a killer presence, you need to be on TV, I really think you've got a great shot, you're stuff is wonderful, all I'm doing is adding a touch here and there, it's all you baby, really. You're awesome..."
The foxier she is the thicker it gets and the bigger the shovel.
Really baby, I swear I promise I won't....
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Hi Ian  and Eddie As you've pointed out, some of the most famous songs of all time have been collaborations. I'm thinking of teams like Rodgers and Hammerstein, Lennon and McCartney, David and Bacharach, etc. It's a really long list. Many collaborators do so because one writes lyrics and one writes music - e.g. George and Ira Gershwin, Rice and Lloyd-Weber. There have also been some hugely successful solo writers: Irving Berlin, Cole Porter, Dianne Warren, Avril Lavigne, Dolly Parton, etc. My experience is that co-writing definitely brings something extra to the table. Mixing another person's ideas on lyrics and/or melody with mine almost always result in a stronger song. For collaborations to work though, it has to be a joint effort and it's necessary to respect one another's points of view. What the woman in Eddie's post does is not what most songwriters would call collaboration. She is simply performing an already written song. As such, the writer of the original song is under no obligation to include her as a co-writer. If, on the other hand, the already written song is simply a song in its beginning stages and is used as somewhere to start and the two writers toss the music and lyrics backwards and forwards between them to arrive at a new and improved song, the process would be collaboration as I understand it. I've found that before any collaboration starts, it's better to agree on percentage split on publishing and royalties. That usually avoids any later upsets. Just my two pennies worth! Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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Quote:
Really baby, I swear I promise I won't...
AND the check's in the mail!!!!
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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I never imagined I would ever see Avril Lavigne mentioned in the same sentence as Irving Berlin, Cole Porter, Dianne Warren and even Dolly Parton. But that is just my opinion as I compare, in my mind, "Sk8terBoy" to "I get a kick outa you".  I played in a 4 piece band where either the pianist or I wrote the songs BUT we'd split the writing 4 ways so all members of the band would benefit if we became famous, which we didn't LOL. But the idea was there! After all we all threw in ideas in rehearsal to make each song sound like it was played by THE CONMEN! not a song written by one and played by a backing band. We rehearsed a lot and consequently we all got to know our musical idiosyncrasies really well and were able, sometimes, to add to/change the song live and on stage. It meant however that we all had to be on our toes, and sober, at each gig. The buzz afterwards was intense and, thanks to our drug and alcohol counselor bass player, sober.  The only collaborations I do these days are between me, my 12 string and BIAB.
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Hi Gibson, Avril is quite an incredible songwriter who's managed to find a style that works for her and has mass appeal. The below link is one of her co-writes ... maybe it will help you see her in a more positive light https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJSOJHBZQG4Regards, Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2024
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Hi Eddie.
As you probably know, it's quite common for session players to write their own parts from the chord sheet, but none of them would claim to be co-writers. It just makes sense for the composer to use the skills that are there - who better to suggest a bass part than an experienced session bass player? Similarly, the producer will have a lot of input to the final content of the song.
The thing is, none of this can happen until someone comes up with an original chord sequence, melody and lyrics and in my view, this person is the real composer. If this task is shared, then it becomes a collaboration.
But I suppose this is pretty much what you were saying, anyway.
ROG.
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Quote:
maybe it will help you see her in a more positive light
I do not recall saying that I saw her in a negative way as a composer, it was after all just my humble opinion with your grouping. My opinion was subjective with no grounds sufficient to produce complete certainty and not my formal expression of a professional judgment. I respect your opinion.
I like Avril's music as I like some of Beyonce's, Dr Dre, Usher and 50 cents stuff but despite their success I still would not compare their songwriting skills to that of Cole Porter. Just my humble opinion.  again.
Thanks for the link as it has given me inspiration to try to write a song using the I VI IV V formula.
Alyn
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And I suppose you have to apply "collaborate" in proper context. If you mean "everybody works on it together" that is one context, but that doesn't equal "everybody wrote it". The Motown band I was in did a handful of originals that I wrote, and while I said "Okay axe man, here's 8 bars for you to do with as you please" and the tenor player/vocalist was free to embellish, it was still my song and there was never a question about it.
There is no better feeling for me than when you slip in a song and introduce it only as "Here's one you have not heard until tonight" and nobody knows it's original until you finish. AND nobody has left the dance floor. Right after that up tune I said "This one's called 'Mirage' " and hit the sequencer start button. It was a ballad, and the floor filled up even more. After the set we had people asking where they could buy our CD (which of course did not exist with only 4 songs ready for it).
Now one day at rehearsal, the guitar player was noodling around with some chords and I said "Keep doing that", and put a clavinet part behind it. The drummer hit record on the 4 track and we made a copy of the vamp. I took that home and wrote a melody and lyrics. At the next rehearsal we ran what I wrote, the guitar guy added a bridge and a key change after the solo, and we ran it to 4 track and played it the next night. I considered that a group collaboration and we announced it that way. "Here's a new one called Not This Time". Wish I still had that tape, but there's been a lot of chicken wings and celery (with blue cheese) since then....
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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And I wanted to add a thought as one of the replies mentioned Diane Warren. When I hear her name, I often stop and genuflect... HOW DOES SHE DO THAT???? How can she keep cranking these great tunes out? She is on the list of 3 people I would like to have dinner with and mentally record every word of the conversation just to see what makes that creative clock tick for her.
And I am sure someone will ask... the other 2 are Todd Rundgren and Sting. The 4th would be Frank Zappa, but I'm too late for that one. If I had to go 5 it would be Carole King. She could have stopped after Natural Woman and Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow and been one of my favorite writers ever.
But Diane Warren.... good god I lost count of her hits. By so many artists on so many charts.... so many of them borderline anonymous because nobody thinks of Diane Warren and Milli Vanilli in the same cloud. Or Aerosmith...
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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I write mostly solo - because nearly always it's a personal story that I'm relaying. Sometimes it's a lucid dream that I write down. For example, how could anyone have collaborated on this song? http://rockstarnot.rekkerd.org/fawm2010/Scott%20Lake%20-%20That%20Poor%20Cello!.mp3This was my lucid dream and I had to write it down and turn it into a song. I'm looking forward to meeting David the Psalmist. That guy knows how to write lyrics! -Scott
Last edited by rockstar_not; 06/30/12 06:24 AM.
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I just started a "team effort" in earnest. Met a guy online years ago on the VSPlanet (much like here; musical, social...) He invited me to play sax on several of his songs which I contribute freely and happily.
Recently he suggested we collaborate in the most pure sense....literally both work. I tossed in some changes I'd assembled with no melody, he asked for the Title and the Theme and wrote some lyrics and a melody. I'm producing, we both arrange.
One mostly done, the second in the nebulous stage.....quite fun.
But Eddie....to your point about "having a sound in your head"...I won't contribute my stuff that I've got plan for....I just contribute the sketchy stuff...motive, string-of-changes that haven't coalesced. I'd recommend you break out your stuff into 2 groups like that and contribute one "rough idea" to a collab w/ a pal. See where it goes. Its quite fun, and I've felt the sum of the 2 so far have exceeded the value of their parts.
When I worry that I'm letting something go that I might miss, I recall the quote of some famous composer (name escapes me) who, when asked how he came up with so many melodies, answered "the trick isn't to think of them, the trick is to not step on one when getting out of bed".
They're everywhere.......
One important part is the relationship; trust, respect, ability to be honest without cocking up the whole thing.
Best of luck.
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One of the best interviews I've read was some years ago with Stevie Wonder in Keyboard Magazine. He sat in his home studio, full size of course, with his producer running tape while he noodles on a keyboard. As he's noodling the producer makes notes of the time on the tape when he hears something good. Stevie just plays and plays, sometimes humming or singing. Whenever he wants to take a break he goes into the booth and the producer plays back what he noted. He said pretty much all of his classic hits were done that way. He said at that time he was sitting on a vamp that would make a great bridge for something but not a whole song and we might hear it eventually. He also said after a two hour session there might be 8-10 snippets and out of those there might be one he decides is worth developing. He freely admited most of it really is junk noodling but I wonder if we would think that.
We all have the same opportunity to do that now right in our little desktop studios and we're not even burning up expensive tape.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Boy, busy thread today. Quote:
The main reason I don't like to do it is that I have an idea in my head and I can't explain it to you but only I will know when the sound matches what is in my head. I will consider advice, which is just what Ian said, but if someone suggests that one line o one verse be phrased differently so the phrasing more closely aligns with the melody and tempo, that is hardly co-writing.
I made it sound as if I give up too easily on my ideas. Not so.
As you Eddie, and the others here mentioned, writing is a solo act following the vision in your head.
But suggestions do not co-writing make, still they help to hone.
Ian
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If you are creative enough and so full of ideas that you have no problem assembling unique songs from scratch time after time, you'd be crazy to collaborate.
But most of us run out of fresh ideas, or the next song starts to sound a bit like the last one. When that happens, allowing somebody else's creative juices to comingle with yours can elevate the final result to something that is bigger than the sum of its parts.
But, the other person's contribution, if it isn't on the same level as yours, can also dilute the end result into something less interesting.
My son once said that the likelihood of randomly hooking up with a musical collaborator and ending up with something you'd want your friends to hear was like sticking your hand in a toilet and pulling out something you'd want to eat.
I'm not so sure I'd go that far, but I do think there's more opportunity for collaboration to disappoint than to exceed expectations.
It probably depends on the person you pick to collaborate with. A lot of people here on the forum have excellent collaborations in place, and I find that fact encouraging.
Speaking for myself, I've never yet had a satisfying collaboration... but that probably just means I was the weak link.
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Eddie you like to rattle on and on about why this or that. Just do it. I was in sales and marketing for years. Every salesperson regardless of the product keeps a prospect list and some kind of organized call back schedule. Eventually you learn to give up on some people because they're never going to buy, they're just stroking you. They're also known as china eggs. You can sit on a china egg forever and it ain't gonna hatch.
When we talk about originals some of us get all paranoid thinking I'm not going to share this with somebody, what if it turns into a real hit? That's whats really in the back of our minds about this. Just copyright the thing and get it out there, let anybody who wants to work on it. All they need to do is email you and you can send them the working tracks. Who cares about it becoming a hit or not, we all know the chances of that anyway. If by some miracle one does happen to hit and you gave half of it away, well now your name is out there, just write another one.
You can sit on your collection of china eggs if you want and what's going to happen to them?
Squat.
Bob
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Yeah, what Bob and Pat said. A collaborator should "fill out your hand," so to speak. If you are short-suited on lyrics then collaborate with someone who's writing you admire. If you have no short suits then you are, indeed, a rare bird and may be well equipped for a solo flight. Only you can judge your "hand."
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Quote:
So show of hands. How many of you prefer to drive the whole way yourself?
my first response didn't address this part of your question
I MUCH prefer to do the whole project myself, even though that inevitably means the end result will be crummier than if I had gotten somebody involved who has strengths where I have weaknesses. The reason I go this route is because I'm not marketing the songs, so end quality is less important to me than the value derived from learning from my mistakes.
What I like about the user showcase is the way people explain their techniques. I know I'm less skilled than others, so I don't have to worry about competing... it is ONLY about learning how to do it better the next time than I did it the last time.
These PG forums are an excellent resource for learning.
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