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Being a musician is not what I do, it's what I am.
I also have a sideline selling Band-in-a-Box aftermarket styles and fake disks. It's an extension of what I do for my own gigging, and it keeps me from having to travel or take a cruise ship gig during the dead season here in Florida. But I still make most of my yearly income by gigging.
And I don't regret my career choice for one minute.
Notes I played in a band back in the 70's with a guy who decided to follow the music path in life. He ended up in Florida and working on the cruise ships. From what I understand, he did make a career out of it. About a year ago, the cruise line let him go, said he was getting too old and the cost of his insurance was the reason...... so he is now still in Florida, trying to sell his house and move back in this area.... but still gigging for that daily bread. BTW, he said the cruise ship life was "the life" with all the perks and the very little time he actually had to work. Especially if you liked to eat and lay around in the sin at the pool watching the people.... 
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Sorry about your friend. He should have put some away. There are no expenses on the ship, they feed you and house you, but it's easy to blow all your money in port - I've seen crew members drink their paycheck away, spend it on hookers, blow it on drugs, and worst of all get to the in-port gambling businesses and turn over their paychecks to the house. Not that your friend necessarily did any of this.
My house is paid for, I'm still gigging as much or more than many of the people much younger than myself. I don't intend to retire - this is too much fun.
Gigging is a business and must be treated like one. You have to dress appropriately, learn the right songs, have good presentation, work the audience, promote yourself, and go the extra mile to be better than your competition.
Knowing what I know about cruise ships, the people in the office do not know how good of an entertainer you are. They go by a few things, passenger comment cards and if you are playing in a lounge, the bar receipts in the lounge in which you are playing (the thinking is that the people will spend their money where they are enjoying themselves - full cash register means a full room).
We got on our first ship, surveyed the entertainment in the other lounges, decided what the ship didn't have that there was a demand for, worked the crowd so they discovered our lounge at the beginning of the cruise, and ended up doing so well that Carnival gave us a double sized cabin with a porthole (in cruise ship land, that's the ultimate raise in pay).
If you are doing a great job, and if you are following the rules on the ship, they aren't going to let you go.
And how old is too old? A friend of mine gigged from the time he was 14 until he dropped dead on stage in his upper 80s. Great pianist, good singer, and you could learn a lot about working the audience by sitting in his bar a few nights.
Being in a band or having a single act is like a small business. Many small businesses fail, many just keep going in a steady state, and a very few make it to the big time. One family pizza restaurant can't make a couple of years without going belly-up, but there is one in town that has been packed for well over 35 years now. Great product, good prices, excellent service.
Just because many musical businesses fail, doesn't mean others cannot do it.
I do admit, that it is more difficult to make a living gigging than it was when I was young. I blame it on TV. When I was in my prime, TV had 3 channels, went off at midnight (playing the national anthem), had a grainy picture, tinny sound, and it was free. You had go go somewhere to hear decent music.
Now we have hundreds of 24/7 channels, giant HD screens, 7.1 surround sound, and a cable subscription that could easily run over 300 bucks a month (there goes the entertainment budget).
People just don't go out as much as they used to. And when they do there are sports bars, DJs, and people who don't play instruments gigging by singing to karaoke tracks. There is more competition out there, which means you have to be a lot better than your competition to keep working.
I know a lot of people still making their living by gigging, so it can be done. But like any small business, you have to have the right product at the right price in the right location to do it.
I hate to see people telling everyone that you cannot make a living by doing music and nothing but music, but I do admit, owning your own musical performance business is not for everyone. It's not easy, but then neither is running any business, but it can be done.
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
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Notes, love ya buddy and you're a valuable contributor here but you need to put one of those legal disclaimers to start a post like this.
"I married the girl singer".
Without that, you're likely a part time weekend warrior like the rest of us you lucky dog...
Bob
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Music is a hobby for me. It is definitely a negative cash flow proposition. Now I did make some money over at streetjelly.com -- but I spent twice as much tipping other folks! I miss you Kevin! I know what you mean, I donate my tips to charity and then buy more for other performers. :> So until SJ and other sites like this draw enough civilian audiences it will be hard to make money, if indeed we can call a few hundred dollars a month "money" in this day and age. Later, I think a single site like SJ is unsustainable, for the reasons mentioned. With no new money, it ends up costing the participants, and eventually people walk away from negative cash flow situations. But the dynamic changes when you consider a whole bunch of similar sites. With many sites a musician can "play the circuit" and not wear out the same audience with the same songs. By "travelling" from site to site, there is also potential to gain new fans who will follow you to other "gigs" If you like the SJ concept, why not sign up at every similar site you can find? Here's a list of places I've found... there may be more: streetjelly.com concertwindow.com stageit.com justjamit.com showslinger.com numubu.com and hopefully before too much longer, BitCONCERT.com with 8 sites, you could play twice a week with no repeat audiences for a month. And once you are bringing your own audience, the necessity of buying your way into the clique by donating your hard-earned tips to the system would no longer be necessary.
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Outside of playing live, the best way to make money in music is to start a website promising people “access”. “advice” or “professional services” like “radio-ready demos”. This does not require any industry knowledge, contacts or expertise. Hey, it's the internet. You can be anything you want to be.  Unfortunately it does seem to me that most of the money goes to people who ENABLE musicians in some way, either through software, gear, networking web sites, CD marketing, Booking, Lessons, Music critique, etc. And the irony is that we are becoming conditioned to accept the paradigm of paying for the privilege of having somebody tell us our songs suck. So here's my money-making idea: Send me your song and $6. I'll tell you its no good then send it back to you. ;-)
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"You can't make money doing it, why don't you set up one of those websites and make money teaching others how to do it?"
This advice comes from far too many.
Apparently, they cannot fathom the irony in that lack of logic.
--Mac
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Notes, love ya buddy and you're a valuable contributor here but you need to put one of those legal disclaimers to start a post like this.
"I married the girl singer".
Without that, you're likely a part time weekend warrior like the rest of us you lucky dog...
Bob Great observation - especially about the lucky dog part. I was making a living doing music before I met her. I played in every state east of the Mississippi and a few west, was the warm up band for the headliner concert acts of the day, before and after that singles bars, show clubs, and so on. I was in a band that landed in a Florida town and met the girl singer from another band. We were each others' groupies for a while. Then our band broke up at the same time hers was falling apart, so we started one together. Did a 5 piece band, and when we had some personnel problems with that, we started our duo. I was working as a musician long before I met Leilani, and if I hadn't met her I would still be making my living as a musician. Not everybody can make a living being a musician - not everyone can make a living owning any other business, but a lot of people do succeed at it. You have to be a good musician, a good entertainer, and a good business person. I live my life on my terms, don't answer to any boss, and do what I enjoy doing to put bread on the table. It's a good life. I've been self-employed for so long, I'd probably never pass a job interview to work for someone else even if I should want to  Notes
Last edited by Notes Norton; 03/31/14 06:26 AM.
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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"You can't make money doing it, why don't you set up one of those websites and make money teaching others how to do it?"
This advice comes from far too many.
Apparently, they cannot fathom the irony in that lack of logic.
--Mac as ironic as it may be when you look closely you see that those selling shovels and treasure maps are usually the main ones making money!
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I was working as a musician long before I met Leilani, and if I hadn't met her I would still be making my living as a musician. Well maybe, that's my point. Trying to make a living after 1985 or so on half the money (unless you managed to hook up with another girl singer) would be pretty difficult but sure, if you had high enough connections it might have worked out for you, maybe you would be with Tower of Power or somebody. Your resume is pretty much exactly the same as mine except I didn't marry Pat Benatar, she was already taken! She was the third and last girl singer in our show group before it all broke up in 1976. I knew that whole scene very well because after that band broke up I was an AFM booking agent for about five years. Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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"You can't make money doing it, why don't you set up one of those websites and make money teaching others how to do it?"
This advice comes from far too many.
Apparently, they cannot fathom the irony in that lack of logic.
--Mac as ironic as it may be when you look closely you see that those selling shovels and treasure maps are usually the main ones making money! Some of us don't want nor need that kind of filthy lucre, man. --Mac
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"You can't make money doing it, why don't you set up one of those websites and make money teaching others how to do it?"
This advice comes from far too many.
Apparently, they cannot fathom the irony in that lack of logic.
--Mac as ironic as it may be when you look closely you see that those selling shovels and treasure maps are usually the main ones making money! Some of us don't want nor need that kind of filthy lucre, man. --Mac Institutions like Berklee College of Music charge an obscene (at least IMHO) amount and crank out WAY more musicians than there will ever be a market for. And because large numbers of these students are not taking out these student loans just for their artistic enrichment, you could probably make a legit case that Berklee is a purveyor of the aforementioned shovels and treasure maps! But the professors there probably would not view themselves as scam artists!
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Can't argue with that.
It is why I changed Major over to EE many moons back, man.
There was (is) a limited number of symphony orchestras in this country, each has four, count them, four Trumpet chairs.
Seat don't come up unless or until somebody dies or retires...
--Mac
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<...>
Your resume is pretty much exactly the same as mine except I didn't marry Pat Benatar, she was already taken! <...>
Bob I think Leilani sings better than Pat Benatar does, but I would have boosted my career much higher if I married Pat -- no complaints though. I'm a survivor and a musical chameleon. I think you have to be in order to adapt to the ever changing world we find ourselves in. I learned to sing lead when we had a hard time finding singers in the band and got pretty good at it. I don't have the pipes to be great, but I'm better than a lot of others. In the psychedelic era when nobody wanted to hear saxophones, I played bass for a living. Learned the flute when Jethro Tull was big. Played disco when it was in vogue. Learned to sequence when bands were being downsized. And so on. Whatever it takes. I live in a house one lot away from the eastern shore of the mainland of Florida - and it's paid for. I buy new cars but keep them well after they have been paid off. I probably would have made a lot more money if I went to the Electronics Engineering option that I took in college, but I think I'm happier being a musician. I could do a single act if I had to, I have that much material. But I'd rather gig with Leilani, we have a lot of fun. No, everybody can't make a living doing music and nothing but music, but some of us can. Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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My buddy from the cruise ship did that gig for nearly 20 years. So my guess is that he did a good job at it and knew how to entertain a crowd and keep the dance floor packed. He was well along that path as an entertainer when I was in a band with him many years before that..... however, the lesson he learned from that band was to play music the people liked, knew and could dance to..... because we did none of those things. We all learned those lessons..... after the fact. I'm thinking that he also saved his money because he was never the kind to blow his money "in port". He bought a house on the other side of Florida's peninsula, and would drive about an hour to get away from the hustle and bustle of the Miami/FL area on his shore leave time. After having played in a number of bands with varying levels of financial success,one of which was very successful even before I joined them. We traveled and played different clubs always being invited back. We had a stage show, not just playing music, and the people loved our slapstick goofy show. Combined with great dance music and a really, really nice light and sound system, we were building a good reputation with fans and clubs. After that ended, I gigged solo for maybe 6 months. That was fun, and very different and in many aspects freeing to the soul. I left music for about a year and did much of nothing, then... I gigged in a house band for 2.5 years. Now that was a fun, and lucrative gig. Same crowd generally speaking and we got to know the owner and bartenders well. We honed the set list and the stage banter to a fine art. The goal was to keep that dance floor packed and the people moving.... 2 fast, one slow.....never start or end a set with a slow song...People who are dancing get hot, and hot people get thirsty, and thirsty people drink from the bar.....and that makes everyone in management happy, and we keep our job and even got bonuses and raises. That first gig was the scary one. We were replacing a house band which was very well known and had been there a long time. The club owner was in deep for us. He purchased the stage piano, the PA system (it was really nice) and the lights and provided a rehearsal place. We had 12 rehearsals and one night with about 4 weeks left until we started, Brooks, the owner, walked in and said "Boys.... I'm concerned since I haven't heard you play a full song yet". the rehearsal place was his garage behind his house. We explained that we only needed to work on the intro's and endings to get them tight and everything else in between was easy. He insisted that we "humor him" so we did. He was relieved. The first night on stage.... we cranked out the first song....an uptempo easy to dance to beat, and.......... nobody got up to dance. Not one person. They all just sat there looking at us. At the end, a few people clapped, most didn't. Geoffry, the drummer, said something to the effect of.... hey, if y'all just wanna sit there and get drunk, that's OK with us, but we came to have a good time and PARTY..... 1,2,3,4.. and we were into the second uptempo..... it was like throwing red meat to ravenous wolves.... the dance floor was packed in 15 seconds and stayed that way for the next 2.5 years. About 2 years in, I began to see the signs appearing that the band was fixing to implode. So I started to purchase some basic studio gear. When it did finally reach that point, I pulled my gear off stage and bid them farewell. The band crashed and burned just a few short months later. Yes, you have to treat it like a business. Give the customer what they are paying for. You're not there (in a club) to play for yourself necessarily. You have to enjoy what you are doing obviously, but if you're not making that paying customer happy, they will not be back and neither will you. I've seen band after band in club after club through the years, first come to town and rock the joint and keep it packed.... then over time, they would be working so much that they didn't have time to work up a new stage show, and the crowds only want to see and hear the same songs so many times before they get bored and go elsewhere. Crowds thin out, bands don't get re-booked. I have a video of the house band: playing in the True Value Country Showdown https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RppltkKsFQA&list=UUvsxe9zrCwjhAjw09YoBw6wwe won first place that day. My 2 cents
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 04/01/14 05:20 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Interesting discussion. Except for a few coffee house venues years ago, I've never really gigged. I enjoy singing in public, but I'm more about songwriting.
Having said that, I'm going to give Street Jelly a go, to get it out of my system, and because the fear of stinkin' up the place forces me to play and sing.
But, back to the question. Would I be accurate in saying that the odds of generating income from an original song are equal to those of winning the lottery, or less? And that few, if any, of us here have ever had that happen?
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But, back to the question. Would I be accurate in saying that the odds of generating income from an original song are equal to those of winning the lottery, or less? And that few, if any, of us here have ever had that happen?
You could say that. However, the odds increase that you would get a cut if you work hard on your song writing skills, network and make connections, and be persistent in pursuing the dream. Sometimes, being in the right place at the right time helps, but it's often said that success is a result of preparedness meeting opportunity. So even though you're setting next to someone who can make it happen, you must be prepared and at the skill level needed to avail yourself of that opportunity.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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...you must be prepared and at the skill level needed to avail yourself of that opportunity.
Well stated. Because "there will always be room for the best."
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...you must be prepared and at the skill level needed to avail yourself of that opportunity.
Well stated. Because "there will always be room for the best." The only thing I would add is "the best" is now absolutely amazing and the size of that group is also quite large! What was good enough 20 years ago, even for a demo, ain't even close now. And, yes, luck is a very large factor but as others already said, you are going to need to do a lot of hard work as well. And you need to do that hard work for a very long time with no guarantee of success. Ya better love what you are doing!
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Just get out in the street and play. If you're any good, people will give you money. Success.
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"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
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