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A true professional knows when to play, and more importantly, when not to play.
Bingo....I especially liked that one^^^^^
Good common sense things that, unfortunately, many bands and musicians have yet to learn.
Learn them, apply them, and prosper..... ignore them at your peril.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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What an odious way to make a living. Cover songs. Disgusting. 
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In reading the comments after the various articles, it's interesting to see the various points of view.
Some bands see themselves as a commercial venture that provides entertainment that has to appeal to a very broad demographic... Which generally means cover songs. As the demographic becomes less broad, the cover songs might focus on a specific genre. Hirability is directly proportional to the broadness of a band's appeal. Proficiency in many genres brings more opportunity than proficiency in one.
Once the songs become originals instead of covers, broad appeal gives way to fan appeal. Unless an artist has already gained a following, he is more of a liability to a business than an asset. The AVERAGE customer wants to hear his/her favorite songs, and they aren't interested in hearing new stuff. I always make it a point to ask cover bands if they play any original material, and the usual response is: "we have several CDs worth of original music. We try to slip our songs into the set, but people don't want to hear originals. If we focused on original material we wouldn't get hired anywhere"
People go to live concerts for different reasons than they go to clubs, bars, parties, festivals, parks, wineries etc etc. Each type of venue has its own listening expectation. If you're playing fan music, you'd better have fans.
If you don't have your own fans, the next best thing (from a commercial standpoint) is to appeal to other bands' fans by playing their covers
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@90db: So what your saying is that 99.99% of all profesional musicians earn their living in an odious way?
After all most musicians get paid to play the music someone else wrote. Be it a classical musician playing Bach or a studio musician recording for an artist, the musician touring with an artist and even most artists: neither of them actually wrote the music they play and therefor cover a song someone else wrote...
Personally I don't find anything wrong in playing cover songs. After all; when you're gigging for a living you provide a service. That service is called entertainment. If the customer wants classic hits and evergreens, that's what the customer gets. My job is to read the audience, perform the best performance ever and make sure it sounds perfect. In other words be a pro. Besides that, have you ever wondered how many hit songs are originally recorded by other artists before and before and before...
I never heard someone say to a chef in a restaurant that he earns his living in an odious way because he cooks dishes that other chefs have developed...
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@90db: So what your saying is that 99.99% of all profesional musicians earn their living in an odious way?
After all most musicians get paid to play the music someone else wrote. Be it a classical musician playing Bach or a studio musician recording for an artist, the musician touring with an artist and even most artists: neither of them actually wrote the music they play and therefor cover a song someone else wrote...
Personally I don't find anything wrong in playing cover songs. After all; when you're gigging for a living you provide a service. That service is called entertainment. If the customer wants classic hits and evergreens, that's what the customer gets. My job is to read the audience, perform the best performance ever and make sure it sounds perfect. In other words be a pro. Besides that, have you ever wondered how many hit songs are originally recorded by other artists before and before and before...
I never heard someone say to a chef in a restaurant that he earns his living in an odious way because he cooks dishes that other chefs have developed...
I think you will find Mike that 90db is totally joking as there has been quite a few threads now about covers and some people on here say they would rather not play at all then do covers. That's the way I read it anyways. Now he's going to kick me up the A$$ for telling you, and make me buy him Guinness all night.  Musiclover
Last edited by musiclover; 12/29/14 03:01 PM.
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Mike,
Ditto to what musiclover said. 90db was joking.
Since Bob, (aka 90db), has a successful duo playing primarily cover songs, I think the "odious" comment was a joke aimed at recent comments about how you're not a "musician" if you play cover songs.
Or maybe it was a joke aimed at something else. Dunno.
But it wasn't a put down for performers who do cover songs.
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After all most musicians get paid to play the music someone else wrote. Be it a classical musician playing Bach or a studio musician recording for an artist, the musician touring with an artist and even most artists: neither of them actually wrote the music they play and therefor cover a song someone else wrote...
Yet another one who throws classical music into a discussion where it really doesn't fit. I doubt we will hear anything new from Johan, will we? Or Wolfgang, or Ludwig.... And also don't start telling me about Sinatra and Bennett. They do standards and showtunes. These discussions are about blue collar working class musicians. Some play covers, some hold out and try to prove to the world they can write. Somebody wrote EVERY song you hear. Be it Bach, Mozart, Gershwin, Copeland, Porter, Arlin, or Lennon and McCartney, they were originals at some point for somebody. Nobody goes to see the Cleveland Orchestra to hear a piece that the 3rd viola player wrote. Now I will say that the 3rd viola player is an outstanding player, far better at his craft than I ever was at mine, but that crowd at our Severance Hall does not want to hear "Bob's composition" in the middle of a Mozart program. One of the replies contained the comment about asking about original music and the band replies "...but nobody wants to hear original music." And to that I will add "so we sell out and hide our writing skills under a bushel just so the owner likes us and has us back for the same $300 and a bar tab." Once again, if you enjoy playing covers, god bless you for doing it. I hate it, and I won't do it anymore. It makes me feel like a painter selling copies of Whistler's Mother that I painted. I may have done the physical painting, but James Whistler had the real talent when, in 1871, he painted the portrait of his mother, Anna. People who can do a good job copying can sell their work and make money doing it, just like playing copy music. I have never sold a song. I have never put out a CD of my own work (in progress). I played cover music for years. And at the time I bought into the party line. Now, at an advanced age and in a different place mentally about music, I no longer play in the band because they play extremely long shows and do mostly covers. I simply don't want to do it. I will rarely go out to see a band that plays covers, and to compound the felony, the SAME covers. It just doesn't interest me. I would rather see 60 minutes of mediocre originals than 3 sets of perfectly executed covers. That's only me and my preference. But please spare me the apples to oranges comparisons of a classical orchestra or a famous crooner from the 50s. It's not the same thing. I have yet to see someone at the level of a national act come out and play 90 minutes of copy music to 19,725 people in an arena. And the reason THAT is not apples to oranges is because THAT is what I consider being a performer in earnest. Riding that bus from town to town, playing 3 shows a week and having your people sell those t-shirts for $45, and your CDs, your baseball caps, your posters, your keychains..... Yes, Todd Rundgren (my favorite artist by a longshot) did Never Never Land on A Wizard, A True Star, and he did a soul medley with I'm So Proud, Ooh Baby Baby, La La Means I love You and Cool Jerk, but that was an homage to his hometown Philly Soul, not his life's work. He even did a half cover album on Faithful. All I am saying is that I don't like copy bands, no matter how good they are. You can go see 2 or 3 every night if you like. I just won't be your wingman.
Last edited by eddie1261; 12/29/14 08:56 PM.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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Sooo Eddie,
While I absolutely "get" the preference for performing one's own work, but if I get what you're saying, then my art is worthless...
I do not, and doubt I ever will, have the sheer talent to write good music (or maybe I do, but I've never found it). For this reason I must play music written by others or I can't play at all.
Add to that the fact I am a trombone player, there is somewhat less repertoire available... Of course, the only way I know to hold a guitar is like a sledge hammer and I'm quite sure I wouldn't get the kind of music I hear Tommy Emmanuel playing if I do it that way.
On the other hand, I have been known to put together quite a nice rendition of many tunes, that sadly were written by others, yet still nice renditions. I've even been known to occasionally fluke some nice improv solos, but not enough to suggest I could be a talented writer or composer.
Now, you poo-poo'd the validity of comparing Sinatra with cover bands, yet the bald truth is Sinatra covered every song he ever sang. You cannot simply exclude him from a discussion of covers, all same Elvis, and the aforementioned Tommy Emmanuel and on and on and on...
As you seem to have the talent to write your own stuff then good on you. I envy that ability, but please don't relegate the rest of us to the trash heap just because our particular talents don't happen to lie in that direction.
We play, and we love OUR art.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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...then my art is worthless... Sometimes it is interesting how much people pay to experience or own something worthless. 
Desktop; i7-2600k, 8 GB mem., Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
Laptop: i5-2410M, 4 GB mem, Win 10 Pro, BIAB 2017; RB 2017 - latest build
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I've been away from these forums too long...
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I've been away from these forums too long... Mike - My comment was sarcastic- sorry it came off otherwise. Gelukkig nieuwjaar!  Regards, Bob
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My bad Bob. Didn't want to rant or take you down. Sorry :-)
A happy new year to you too!
I've been away from these forums too long...
Best wishes to all forummembers and their loved ones! And for all the fellow-musicians that are gigging New Years eve and/or new years day: have a good one! May the audience be good and the pay even better ;-)
Last edited by Mike sings; 12/30/14 02:57 AM.
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Sooo Eddie,
While I absolutely "get" the preference for performing one's own work, but if I get what you're saying, then my art is worthless... No. My point is that it isn't really YOUR art. It is you reproducing THEIR art. There is a difference between art and craft. From my perspective, the art is the writing. The playing is craft. Muscle memory. Do enough repetitions and you can't NOT eventually get it right. Everybody can write. Whether they write well is the key. And the people who buy the music will decide that. We ALL think we write like Diane Warren with her 150 some #1 hits. Sit and write all your bad songs and get them behind you. Nobody sits down and writes White Christmas. I am not all that when it comes to writing, but I DO have a handful of good songs. Everybody who is anti my position seems to miss my point of view. When I watch the Grammy awards, I don't care about anything but who writes the songs that win. But that's me. Remember Bonnie Raitt and her beautiful "I Can't Make You Love Me" several years ago? I don't call that a Bonnie Raitt song. I call it a Mike Reid song. She was just the vehicle. Now, though it never won a Grammy, so many people have covered it that Reid has been able to pull royalties from like 10 different artists, and when your song is so popular that 10 artists cover it, you are one hell of a writer who doesn't NEED to perform! That has been my dream for decades. I don't like to play, I don't want to play, and I don't need to play. Particularly other people's songs. I have no desire to spend 30 minutes loading my car, an hour getting to a venue, an hour setting up, 30 minutes sound checking, and then playing for a crowd that wish the band would shut up so they can focus on whatever is on the big screen TV above the bar. Now, if that venue is a music only room with no TVs or video games, maybe. The idea is that if there is music being performed, the crowd is suppose to be there to listen to the music. Quietly. Not chatting so the people around them can't hear the music. And put those cell phones AWAY. Listen to, and watch, the talent. Playing my own stuff vs playing covers is like comparing sex with a woman to masturbation. I prefer the former, but the latter would have to do if I don't have anybody with whom to do the former. In both examples, I prefer the former or nothing. When 100 bands play in this town on a given night, and 97 of them play covers, why even bother going out to hear them do "the latter"? I shouldn't have to keep saying this but I will until everybody stops trying to tell me why my opinion is wrong. EVERYBODY DO WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY! Play Gimme Three Steps twice a set, 6 times a night if you like. Right after Brown Eyed Girl, Margaritaville and All Right Now. I chose/choose to not do that. If people don't want to hear what I write, I am either a failure as a composer or playing the wrong kind of venues. I don't need to play music. It does not define who I am. I am also a good cook, a decent woodworker, a writer of words to where I have twice had columns, once about computers and once about food. Music is just one small thing I know how to do. However, I know MANY guys who have nothing else in their life. They are unemployed outside of the 6 times a month they play in their little cliche copy band and have a girlfriend supporting them because they only make $500 a month, and a large part of that $500 is spent drinking and/or smoking weed. If it works for them, and they have conned that girl into buying into supporting him (because I'm just THRILLED to be with a cool musician!!), god bless them. I'm a man. Nobody supports me. I have one venue near me that has a standard performer's guideline on her web page. Right in that guideline it says "NO COPY BANDS". In capital letters just like I typed it. I love her!! Bands go in there and may do one cover per set, but for the most part they are 95% original. Because of the standard thinking of almost every musician in this town, I can't find players who are willing to play in a band that does only originals, so I have no product to take to her room. She has actually reached out to me asking when I am going to bring my music to her room, and I have had to tell her that I have no band for the reasons I just stated. Ticks me off. Live performance means CD sales and I don't have that opportunity. Ever tried to sell music when nobody hears it until after they put out their 15 bucks? (Refer back to the "nobody with whom to do that" comment.... )
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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Sooo Eddie,
While I absolutely "get" the preference for performing one's own work, but if I get what you're saying, then my art is worthless... No. My point is that it isn't really YOUR art. It is you reproducing THEIR art. There is a difference between art and craft. From my perspective, the art is the writing. The playing is craft. Muscle memory. Do enough repetitions and you can't NOT eventually get it right. Crap! MY art is held in my interprataion and performance - the original song being the source material - and yes, it IS important. I am unable to create new songs they way I would like - I know that, but the enjoyment I have from performing is not diminished by not having my own originals to play. It's like a painter going to an art supply store and buying tubes of paint instead of finding their own raw materials and making the paints themselves. Not all painters have those skils, but they can still use the paints created by others to express themselves.
<snip>
I don't like to play, I don't want to play, and I don't need to play. <snip to end>
^THIS^ is the real difference between us - you hate playing - I LOVE playing - it doesn't matter to me who wrote it so long as I can interpret and perform it beautifully. For what it's worth, I play in 3*Big Bands, a Dixie style band, 2*Concert bands, a brass come show band, Sometimes in church and in 2*musical societies. I get paid for none of it (except for a very small equipment allowance from one of the musical societies and the occasional distribution - a pittance really - from the fees of the Big Bands.) It costs me FAR more to play than I am ever likely to get back but I still do it because I love to do something you hate - I love to play. You argued that someone who plays anothers composition is not an artist, but simply a performer of anothers art. My counter argument would be that if you are NOT performing what you have written then you are not really an artist either, you're just a writer... The real truth lies between these extremes - we are BOTH artists, but we have different emphasis. For you to look down on me because I feel I cannot write creditably enough to be happy performing what I have written is the height of arrogance. Especialy if you cannot perform what you have written creditably enough for you to enjoy playing it. I am happy to recognise you as an artist - please have the common decency to accord me the same privilege, even if you don't "like" my art.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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My counter argument would be that if you are NOT performing what you have written then you are not really an artist either, you're just a writer...
I am not an artist and admit that freely. I only WISH people would say I'm just a writer. I am a writer wannabe. Until someone major performs one of my songs and it gets heavy rotation airplay, I will remain a wannabe. Until I have one of those statues in my house for writing a huge hit, I will remain a wannabe. Until I have one of those platinum plaques hanging on my wall, I will remain a wannabe. A non-playing wannabe. Remember, I don't even listen to music anymore. I sometimes hear it in the background, like when shopping, etc... but to go out and buy a CD, or turn on the radio, or go see bands play.... rarely if ever. I just don't care anymore. And you know what is funny to me, is that many people I know who DO play don't really care anymore either. They are plastic with the audience on stage and bad mouth them afterward, and play music they hate because "that's what they want to hear". Well, as long as I am part of "they", you are wrong.
Last edited by eddie1261; 12/30/14 02:28 PM.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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My counter argument would be that if you are NOT performing what you have written then you are not really an artist either, you're just a writer...
I am not an artist and admit that freely. I only WISH people would say I'm just a writer. I am a writer wannabe. Until someone major performs one of my songs and it gets heavy rotation airplay, I will remain a wannabe. Until I have one of those statues in my house for writing a huge hit, I will remain a wannabe. Until I have one of those platinum plaques hanging on my wall, I will remain a wannabe. Would you believe: Crap! In the interests of being fair I just had a quick listen to some of your work on soundcloud and while you sing about as well as I do (there's a reason I'm a trombone player) the underlying ART is solid. The melodic lines, while perhaps predictable, are nevetheless sound, as are the accompanying chord progressions. I assume the recordings have been created by yourself in PGMusic tools - and that is an art in itself - one I also don't have. Don't sell yourself short. Many great artists of the past were never recognised in their lifetime. Fine, there's no rule that says you have to play and I'm happy to accept "wannabe" provided you will accept that what you do is art - whether anyone thinks it's good or not. FWIW I consider myself a "talented hack" rather than a great tromboneist...
Remember, I don't even listen to music anymore. I sometimes hear it in the background, like when shopping, etc... but to go out and buy a CD, or turn on the radio, or go see bands play.... rarely if ever. I just don't care anymore.
I can understand that, in fact I'm much the same - there is a LOT of stuff being released that is purely about the money machine and not about art.
And you know what is funny to me, is that many people I know who DO play don't really care anymore either. They are plastic with the audience on stage and bad mouth them afterward, and play music they hate because "that's what they want to hear". Well, as long as I am part of "they", you are wrong.
Actually, I don't think that's funny - I think it's sad and highly disrespectful to the audience. When I perform, I KNOW my job is to entertain, not judge those I'm entertaining because of their, to me, poor or limited or (insert preferred adjective here) taste in music. Thus, if my audience is having fun, then so am I! And that too is an art...
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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Many great artists of the past were never recognised in their lifetime.
Wait! What?? You mean all I have to do to have a shot at being famous is DIE??? I KNEW there was a step I was missing!!! Thank you for the kind words about my stuff. A lot of painful heartbreak went into a lot of those songs. I once had a singer here in town tell me "I listened all the way through the demos CD. When I finished I was glad I don't have a barn because some of those songs are so sad I might have gone out there and tossed a rope over a beam and hung myself. WHAT HAPPENED to you to make you write such sad songs?" And my reply to her was "Sad things." Songs are just stories set to music, right? And teh best place to get stories is your own life's experiences. When a girl breaks my heart, it ends up in a sad song. If I ever write a song about adopting a basket of puppies, it will be happy. I'll even take "predictable"! What I can't seem to get the hang of is that "radio songs must be exactly 3:34 and no longer!!" edict that the blue blazer wearing songwriters in the writing farms rigidly adhere to. I grew up with Pink Floyd and Yes and ELP who wrote 20 minute anthems and themed albums. It's hard to not write what my roots are.
Last edited by eddie1261; 12/30/14 08:53 PM.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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<snip>
What I can't seem to get the hang of is that "radio songs must be exactly 3:34 and no longer!!" edict that the blue blazer wearing songwriters in the writing farms rigidly adhere to. I grew up with Pink Floyd and Yes and ELP who wrote 20 minute anthems and themed albums. It's hard to not write what my roots are.
Yeah, that would be the money machine instead of art... 
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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