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How do you know how many people would be benefitted by either?
Did you do a survey?
I say that both are important items.
I also can find other criteria for what constitutes an "important" change.
Depends on who you ask in cases like these.
--Mac
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Mac,
Without getting snarky about a reply, I think even you would agree that here on the forums there are at least many more active requests (and moldy oldie requests) for full VST implementation with PG products than for ReWire.
No, I didn't do a survey.
Yes, I can recall many many requests for VST implementation, and a handful for ReWire.
Yes I count me as someone who left off buying PG products because of VST implementation; or rather the lack of it. I know that I'm not alone in this regard.
I still hang out here with the hope that real VST comes some day. I'll come back in a heartbeat.
I doubt ANYONE has left off using PG products because of lack of ReWire implementation.
Peter has given some 'importance' to the issue because of his starting this thread. That has the appearance to some (I include myself in this lot) that development effort will be spent on it. Those of us that have put lots of effort over many years into the wishlists kind of go 'what - why are you bothering asking about ReWire when we've been asking for better VST implementation for years?'
Perhaps what Peter should do is a survey to end speculation. I'd love to see him post 'What do we need for acceptable VST implementation' and see the responses there.
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Um, my reply was to Robh.
BTW -- I have had projects where Rewire was needed and that meant exactly what you doubt -- not using the pgmusic product.
But my experience does not constitute a survey of all users, just as this forum does not, which was and is my point.
When wearing my engineering hat, which does not come off, it having grown into my scalp over the years, the demand for hard data is the norm.
--Mac
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Quote:
But my experience does not constitute a survey of all users, just as this forum does not, which was and is my point.
This is true for all of us - but so hard to put aside personal experiences/frustrations.
It would be interesting to see how PG does Product Development & Market Research for setting importance of features. Because Peter Gannon posted the note and asked for comments, it sort of looked like market research on the surface.
When James Chandler Jr. used to post here, we got a little bit of an idea on how it worked in the past. James described PG Music's choice to go with DX over VST for plugin technology in one post back some years ago.
Market Research is such an art. I've had to study it somewhat in my past employment, as I would assist in customer clinics as it pertained to sound & vibration performance of GM vehicles. I attended a week long course by the Burke Institute (the math folks behind the Nielsen ratings) on statistics used in gathering and analyzing market research data. In my work, I at least interfaced with the customers. There were folks in that class that analyzed data based on mail-out cards. Almost impossible to get response rates above 10% for stuff like that. I was thankful for my direct contact after having dinner with those folks.
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Myself I havn't used RealBand that much. I'd much rather see Band in the Box Rewired into my main DAW, which is Cubase. That way, man, you got an idea, Rewire it in and generate some action right away without having to cart files from BB to Cubase. It'd be great. Mapping out a tune right there, generating some tracks, and getting to work on it all in the same environment. Now Reason is going to have its own DAW with Reason Record, so people who buy that won't have to worry about Rewiring Reason into another DAW. But BB, to me anyway, is an idea generator, and it'd be really cool to have it Rewired into my DAW.
Fivehands
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I admit to feeling strongly moved by the argument for fully-implemented VST (particularly where it concerns Jamstix). But I have a new motivation for wanting Rewire.
I've just run up against the deal where the Roland VSC doesn't work in Vista x64. With Rewire and Reason I'd have the world's most kickety-butt soft synth in my pocket, but nooOOOOooo, all I get is the Microsoft GS wavetable with 200 ms latency, until I can afford Forte or some such.
So near, and yet so far . . .
R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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My ReWire application that I've been using for the past 4 or 5 years now appears to have been orphaned by the parent company (Tracktion / Mackie). It has become my main DAW - I fly in it compared to anything else I've tried.
I've never had to use the ReWire capabilities simply because there was no need for me to do it, and I didn't have any other apps that were ReWire capable. Most other apps that are ReWire are other DAW software - which again normally come with a price tag of at minimum $50 and usually you can add a zero to that amount.
If RealBand had VSTi capability for real - I could divorce Tracktion and marry RB as my DAW. I've never been one to have one DAW as my main squeeze, then girlfriend DAWs on the side - too expensive.
If I had Reason, the product from Propellerheads that is, then I would certainly want the ReWire capability so that I could use it.
But what I do have is a list of VSTi and VST that I simply love to use right now. To use Ryzsard's terminology - I've got a stable full of 'kickety-butt' synths and plugins that I rely on their full VST implementation. Most of them were freeware (list too long to mention - but most VST delays tempo lock to the host tempo, dBlue's Glitch, Kjaerhus autofilter, etc.), but a few I have purchased (Jamstix) and/or won (Cameleon 5000, VB3, Mr. Ray's 73) through the KVRaudio.com monthly song contests.
But I'll agree with Mac - that's just my experience. It FEELS like that's what everyone else could use, but I shouldn't speak for them.
Now, Ryszard, there are many many excellent freeware soft synths out there that you can use RIGHT NOW. Forte is not the end-all-be-all GM synth. For now, why not just try sfz with a General Midi soundfont in it? There are some pretty decent freeware GM soundfonts you can employ and still make beautiful music with them. I did it for years.
Maybe even the freebie Proteus VX or the NI Kore player have a GM set you can use. Just need hard drive space for those.
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Mac i hear ya, on the debate, i do not have a survey to back my views, and i might be speaking from personal needs. I use RB more than BiaB, and i can see Rewire being huge in BiaB, due to the one synth architecture, but the question went out for RB, not BiaB. As five hands said above BiaB would be a very potent idea machine. My isuues is that (once again personal view) I do not have any Rewire synths. But i do have a couple rewireable DAWs, so i can see the advantage there.
I still run on the "fix the problem before moving on" platform. VSTi is not done, but is still bakin in the oven as we speak. But hey if the team is willing, let's have both! It was interesting to hear above that there was a time that PG music had to decide whether to go DX or VST, and chose DX. This reminds me of the earler Cakewalk issues, since they were also DX based, and as time went on they had to move furhter towards VST, first with a wrapper and then with full implimentation.
I am one that would use RB almost exclusively if it had two things:
1. Full VSTi implimentation, and
2. A bit more stabiliy.
The second due to it still crashes and locks up to much on me. So i accept your view on this as being more broad based then mine for sure, but i still bet that more people here use VSTi instruments than use rewire. But i could be wrong!
Lenovo Win 10 16 gig ram, Mac mini with 16 gig of ram, BiaB 2022, Realband, Harrison Mixbus 32c version 9.1324, Melodyne 5 editor, Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL, Presonus control app, Komplete 49 key controller.
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Quote:
Most other apps that are ReWire are other DAW software . . .
Scott,
I respectfully differ. Follow the link for Propellerhead's list of Rewire-capable apps.
If DAWs (which Phead call "mixers") are in the majority, it is by a slim margin. Granted, the names of the synth apps don't roll off of most users' tongues. I haven't heard of that many of them (which simply speaks to Reason as 'first among equals'), but they do exist.
Thanks for the heads up on the alternate synths. I'm going to start a separate thread with a question on sfz and Sound Fonts.
R.
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Quote:
Quote:
Most other apps that are ReWire are other DAW software . . .
Scott,
I respectfully differ. Follow the link for Propellerhead's list of Rewire-capable apps.
If DAWs (which Phead call "mixers") are in the majority, it is by a slim margin. Granted, the names of the synth apps don't roll off of most users' tongues. I haven't heard of that many of them (which simply speaks to Reason as 'first among equals'), but they do exist.
Thanks for the heads up on the alternate synths. I'm going to start a separate thread with a question on sfz and Sound Fonts.
R.
Ryszard, most, if not all, of those 'mixer' apps are DAW software. The list is pretty long of DAW that they call 'mixer' like ProTools, Reaper, Apple Logic, Digital Performer, Tracktion, ACID, etc. etc. etc.
Many of those come bundled with their own synths and when they do, they call it a 'synth/mixer' application.
None of them are cheap - well perhaps Reaper and now Tracktion. But their prime reason for being is to be a DAW.
If you are trying to get access to synths, then it's an overwhelming majority, on the PC platform, to shoot for VSTi rather than ReWire (exceptions are few and rare - acknowledge that they are there - my guess is the list of 15 or so on the Propellerhead's site is an exhaustive list). Compare that with the hundreds, if not thousands of synths available in VSTi format.
Those synths that are ReWire only have hefty price-tags. You'd probably find just as long of a list for DXi format.
VSTi also let you 'choose your size' for memory loading and usage. sfz is quite nice for this.
I used to be a General MIDI guy and relied first upon my Creative Labs Live card's internal soundfont synth - but the problem is that it actually loads fonts upon boot of the computer - and slowed down start-up time of the machine.
Then I migrated to sfz (after abandoning PTPA because of lack of VSTi support), and found that fonts loaded into RAM only when I had the sfz (with the fonts of my choosing) loaded in a sequence.
Now, instead of an o.k. piano in a GM soundfont, I can load up a big old highly multi-sampled sf2 into sfz like the Splendid soundfont, and have a gorgeous sounding piano (if that's all I'm really using from GM) rather than a clunky sounding one.
The latest version of sfz is available on the Cakewalk site - as a freebie download. It's one of the apps that Cakewalk inherited when they bought rgc audio. rgc also makes some excellent subtractive analog synth emulations in VSTi format. Triangle I and II are some of my favorite lead synths that are out there - very tweakable and very light on CPU, and free. They made other, even more complex analog subtractive synths, but they weren't free.
If I gigged with my PC rig, then I'd probably save my pennies for one of the Ketron hardware units. Every demo I've heard made with their GM set sounds pretty nice; exceptions being the really hard emulations like sax and electric guitars. Those are hard to nail no matter who is trying from both the sound design as well as performance aspect.
If you are trying to acheive certain kinds of sounds, send me a PM and I can guide you to VSTi (usually freeware or shareware) that will do the trick nicely for you.
Some places to start:
Electromechanical keyboard emulations (rhodes, wurly, B3, etc.):
Shareware and payware: GSi http://www.genuinesoundware.com/?a=products
Payware: Native Instruments http://www.native-instruments.com/
Analog subtractive synth emulations: Look for the elektrostudio thread in the PTPA forum - some of those are really killer and unique.
rgc audio stuff now from Cakewalk, freeware and payware http://www.cakewalk.com/Products/virtualinstruments.asp
minimogue VA and others from this guy: http://www.home.no/gunnare/
Amazingly cool subtractive synth that loads soundfonts, has FM synthesis built in also - you could spend a year learning this one - OakTree's Crystal. Some very rich and lovely sounding presets on this one.
http://www.greenoak.com/crystal/
Don't let the age of that one fool you - download the banks that are there - at least one is programmed by the recently departed Tim Conrardy.
Actually, rather than continuing to type my own list, KVRaudio has a user rating on plugins. Here's the freeware list: http://www.kvraudio.com/ratings/9.html
-Scott
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Doesn't a virtual midi cable take care of the basics that most of us would need? Just asking since I probably would never use it anyway.
Robert
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No.
Virtual MIDI cable does do only one of the things, though in a different way, more like a workaround than what Rewire is really designed to do.
--Mac
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Scott, This is a discussion, not an argument, okay? And I am learning a heck of a lot more from you, a working pro, than I could ever hope to offer in return. You are VERY persuasive in your support of VST. I ran up against your frustration in trying to get a DXi synth running in BIAB + Vista x64. You're right, there are probably a bunch of free VSTis that would work great--if they worked at all. I don't know what I'll do when the Forte demo expires; the GS wavetable I have is kinda sucky, and no one seems to know of anything else that works. I shore had fun playing around with wrappers and hosts and such--NOT! Might go to hardware (I have a Roland JV-1010 to which I'm rather partial). But it does seem a shame to waste all the computing power I have when there are so many cool toys out there--see laptop specs below. My vehement support of Rewire stems from my splendid isolation, probably. Reason is the best soft synth I know of--'cause I don't know of many others. But lemme tell ya, when I get Reason and Nuendo cooking together, issa byootiful thing, ya know? I prove it soon, I promise.  R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Quote:
.. Might go to hardware (I have a Roland JV-1010 to which I'm rather partial). But it does seem a shame to waste all the computing power I have when there are so many cool toys out there--see laptop specs below.
...
By all means, HOOK IT UP and use it!
Those sounds in the 1010 are a very good set, which blend with each other extremely well.
Hardware synth = ZERO latency problems. Ever.
--Mac
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With my laptop, a TASCAM US-224 Audio/MIDI interface and a couple of mics, the Roland and an M-Audio Keystation 49e, I have (to borrow the phrase from myself) a kickety-butt portable studio. The laptop bag holds the PC and all its accessories, and a rilly nice GigSkinz soft case holds everything else. I'm talkin srsly portable here. Only the Roland needs AC power, and I've got a 300-watt inverter in my automobile, ifn ya know what I mean. (DRIVE, mama, I'm makin MUSIC here!)
LOL,
R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Ok. Most of what I'm going to put here I've put in the wishlist forum. 1. Vst/VSTi complete support - The real thing ... not a work-a-round. 2. Real Instruments with good intro and outros. 3. Real Instruments that stop where the hi-lite region stops. (Usually plays a bar or two past the music)  4. More stereo/mono tracks. 5. Less overhead use. 6. Real Tracks to follow midi tracks instead of randomly playing a rhythm based on tempo. # 6 is important. If Real Band and BIAB were to use midi tracking it would save us a ton of hard drive space. We wouldn't have to wait for up to 2 minutes for the song to generate the real instrument before playing. Locking in the real instruments wouldn't be necessary. Just because your real instruments sound pretty good with a two bar ending doesn't mean they'll sound worth a hoot in Real Band when opened. I've created entire songs in BIAB just to have proper endings with the real instrumenst only to have the endings messed up when opened in Real Band. So ... 7. Absolute opening and closing duplication between the two programs. 8. Less overhead use. There has to be a better way to make all this stuff come together than what we got now. It's as if my computer is loading almost to the 2 gig of memory when I have an app that is using 20 tracks and a bunch of plugins. These programs need to find some way to call all this stuff during playback so as not to load the memory banks with a ton of program. I hope this makes sense. It's the only thing close to a gripe I have with this software. I can edit and tweak the heck out of a track. But nothing torques me off worse than to have my system stutter because it's overloaded in the memory banks with stuff that ought to be streamed. Just my opinion. Others mileage may vary. 
Russ Anyday above ground is a good day Computer is Hp Pavillion Vision 6 Ghz quad core AMD processor 8 Gig memory 1 TB hard drive 6 GB hard drive Windows 7 Premium Loose nut behind the keyboard 
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A couple of other things.
1. Need to make RB use ASIO drivers better across the board.
2. Need to fix DXi to work with Forte better.
There are several instruments, if not all, that do not respond in PTW nor RB. The controllers are ignored when using Forte but they work just fine in VSC Dxi
That may be a call on Norm's part.
Russ Anyday above ground is a good day Computer is Hp Pavillion Vision 6 Ghz quad core AMD processor 8 Gig memory 1 TB hard drive 6 GB hard drive Windows 7 Premium Loose nut behind the keyboard
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Quote:
7. Absolute opening and closing duplication between the two programs.
+1000
I'm tired of creating something with which I'm completely happy in BIAB, only to find it changed (or having to regenerate it completely) once ported to RB.
***
Thought it was just me and my ignorance causing me to have to wait 'forever' (in computing time, one or two minutes is forever) because I changed one chord while I create a piece. And another, and another; it's how I work.* Anything that can be done to improve this and other performance issues will be a blessing.
***
A couple of weeks ago I said elsewhere it was a sort of race between Steinberg Nuendo and RB to see which one became more functional first. So far Nuendo is winning. Rewire and Reason are a big reason for that, but the main thing is I can just plug in and go, the first time I've had that confidence with any DAW program. Haven't got that far with RB yet. When I have more to experiment I'll go back and give it another look.
R.
Yeah, I know, do it in MIDI. I just want all the wonderfulness all the time, lol. Srsly.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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If RB could do everything BiaB could do, PLUS the audio features... what need would there be for BiaB?
They are two different programs with two different purposes. I for one don't want them combined. I have no use for the BiaB features and the ones in there now get annoying. I wish I could just remove that whole middle song generating section from my screen (and the program) and just keep the realtracks feature.
I don't think I'm the only one who thinks this way.. incorporating all the features of BiaB into RB would eliminate the need for BiaB and skyrocket the price of RB.
Having purchased a couple of the drum programs that don't sync to RB in VSTi, I would MUCH rather see this problem get solved... tempo syncing in VSTi
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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