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Gary, Very well spoken. Here in WV, we probably have one of the highest percentage rates of gun ownership in the USA. We also have one of the lowest violent crime rates in the nation. The vast majority of our violent crimes invlove drugs. Break in's are rare, especially if the homeowners are at home. I guess the criminals don't like the idea of staring down a 12ga. shotgun or a .357 magnum. Those are 2 good reasons to mind your own business and leave other people and their families and property alone. Bob 
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 12/26/09 03:23 PM.
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And here we have a good example of the *French military practicing to protect themselves from an invader: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8MEVVU3bxMAnd do you know how many gears a French tank has? It's only got 1 speed in forward. But it has 6 speeds in reverse! Good thing for Europe that us gun toting Americans are always there to bail them out when the going gets tough! Maybe if they allowed their citizens to own guns, they might actually be able to use them instead of having to call on us "redneck cowboys" to save their a**es. LOL. Bob  *Actually it's French-Canadian infantry using a French made anti-tank missle.
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 12/26/09 06:39 PM.
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Quote:
Good thing for Europe that us gun toting Americans are always there to bail them out when the going gets tough! Maybe if they allowed their citizens to own guns, they might actually be able to use them instead of having to call on us "redneck cowboys" to save their a**es.
LOL.
Not something America is likely to be called on to do again thankfully. Besides if the US forces all have heads as big as yours seems to be there wouldn't be enough space over here to accommodate them.
Its doubtful if America's war effort was primarily for Europe's benefit anyway seeing as you only enetered it after Pearl Harbour. Apart from that how would a fascist victory in Europe have helped the America to achieve its aims of commercial dominance throughout the Western World? Thats something that could only be achieved if America could make Europe safe for its markets, its multinational corporations and its cultural products.
America as always has its own agenda for joiningand perpetrating wars; always has done.
in fact as far as the 'going getting tough' is concerned, one of the biggest threats to world peace since the second world war is America's desire to extend its sphere of economic cultural and political control far beyond its own borders. If America hadn't spent so much time backing right wing dictators like Saddam Hussein, General Pinochet and any amount of tinpot fascists around the globe simply because America could do business with them there might not be the kind of resentment that breeds conflict and instability in the first instance.
Regards
Alan
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Alan, I knew that with just a little bit of "coaching", you'd let loose with both barrels and show your anti-American hatred in all of it's glory! Thanks for cooperating! LOL. Bob
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Its not hatred, it just a statement of fact as to how America, or rather the people you invest your trust in to govern, operate. Why do you assume i hate all Amercans? I love lots of things that have come out of America and i like the people (most of them I have met ) as individuals. I find them warm-hearted funny and full of life. i do not hate Americans...so lets knock that one on the head! If I had i would hardly have gone half way across the world to marry one of them. LOL
You see its one thing to pass comment on american foreign policy and criticse it and another thing entirely to say one 'hates' America. I wish America and indeed Britain and other western nations would wake up and stop letting a powerful elite set their own self-interested agenda and indoctrinate their poulations with the kind of unthinking patriotism that sees any criticism as hatred.
Regards
Alan
Last edited by alan S.; 12/26/09 07:33 PM.
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Come to think of it ..if you really did say something deliberately inflammatory just to get me back on the thread so you and others could indulge in a bit of gloating and foreigner-baiting that doesn't say much for you I'm afraid. Its almost a microcosm of how American foreign policy operates. Do something to incite and provoke a response then try and crush it as a perceived attack on the nation.
Regards
Alan
Last edited by alan S.; 12/26/09 07:39 PM.
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Alan,
The only thing I said that was "deliberately inflammatory" was the video joke about the French rocket launcher. And it was just a joke.
Maybe you don't have a sense of humor, so I guess you didn't get it.
When it comes to critisizing our government, leave that us. Believe me, I, and millions of other Americans do it every day.
But we really don't like hearing it from across the pond. Especially when you're using the "imperialistic" cliches.
Anytime anyone in the entire world needs help, who do they turn to? The USA. And we always help. And our hands that are "feeding", (aka helping), the world are constantly getting bitten by the very mouths being fed.
So instead of focusing your hatred on the greatest and most generous nation on the planet, have ever heard of North Korea, Iran, China or Venezuela? Cuba maybe? Some of the many tyranical regimes in Africa?
If you used your misplaced ill will toward America and focused it on the other countries that are treating their own people like dirt, maybe someone over here would actually listen to it.
Bob
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Alan,
By the way, we are getting off track from the original thread of the right to self defense, and in America, the right to "keep and bear arms".
You never did mention whether you would be able to look into the eyes of the families of the victims of the masacre in Texas and tell them that no private citizen should have had the right and ability to have protected their loved ones that day. What about the lady who obeyed the law and left her gun in the car, only to see her family murdered? If she had brought it in and taken down the gunman, saved her parents and many other people, would you have called for her head for breaking the law that was current at the time?
Or is your hypocrisy so deep seated that you won't take a stance on this?
Bob
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 12/26/09 08:35 PM.
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My hypocracy? Thats rich. The situation you describe is partly the making of the gun laws and the society we live in anyway. The second is the refusal of western Countries in general and America in particular to be honest about underlying causes of crime or tackle directly them directly . You constanly vote for low taxation governments that put social programs, adequate policing bottom of the heap in terms of priority because you're indoctrinated with a concept of freedom that says its every man for himself, that 'big' government is basically a bad thing. And the free access to guns works both ways. How are you to tell whether legally acquired guns don't eventually get used for illegal purposes.?
I can look these people in the eye and say they have a right to be protected. Sure i can. Of course people given the situation as it stands will feel justified in using guns to protect themselves in cases like the one you mention and my sympathies are with them. You've misunderstood me completely on this.
I return to my original point about degree of provocation, and i dont see whats wrong in defending yourself or your family in extreme danger in this way if there is no other alternative. Its just that i dont believe any improvements in the long term will come about with gun laws the way they are and with the kind of mindset that leaves people to fend for themselves. The thing is that unless you get real about the need for collective provision in your country and taxation to fund change and address the social side of the crime equation you will never get to the bottom of it.
Regards
Alan
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Alan, Quote:
I return to my original point about degree of provocation, and i dont see whats wrong in defending yourself or your family in extreme danger in this way if there is no other alternative.
How are going to do that Alan if you don't have a gun? You say it's okay to defend yourself with a gun in "extreme danger". But you also say the general public shouldn't have guns. The criminals will always have guns!
There's the hypocrisy!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bob
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Also Alan, Quote:
You constanly vote for low taxation governments that put social programs, adequate policing bottom of the heap in terms of priority because you're indoctrinated with a concept of freedom that says its every man for himself, that 'big' government is basically a bad thing.
If you think our taxes are "low" in America, then you're more misinformed than I originally thought.
Yes I am indoctrinated with the concept of freedom! That's what my forefathers fought and died for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And in case you glossed over my previous statement about several cops telling me that it was up to each individual to protect themselves, let me relate one more story.
My ex-girlfriend lived in another state and had a stalker. I couldn't be there to protect her. The cops told her to get a gun,(SC), and blow the guy away if he came through the door. When we then met with a judge in his chambers. He asked me if I had a gun I could loan her. I said yes. Her gave her the same advice.
Maybe being self sufficient is a foriegn concept to you, but it is not to those of us who are proud to call the USA our home. Maybe you want the government to post a cop at every door?
Maybe you aren't man enough to stand up for yourself and your family? Do you need Big Brother to do it for you?
Would you really wait for "extreme danger" before trying to protect your wife?
I really hope you're not, nor do I think, that you are an example of the average Scottish man. If you were, Scotland would have ceased to exist long ago!
Bob
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 12/26/09 09:49 PM.
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All i'm saying is that In the situation as it stands poeple will do what they have to do in the absence of adequate enforcement. The question is what is being done about that? Is there an aim to do away with a gun owning culture by trying to make policing better, to spend more on education create a fairer safer society or is there just a resignation about the whole thing?
It might be naive to expect much to be done about it given America's lack of propensity for collective provision of anything far less making its streets safe but it's not hypocritical to say thats whats needed. It's hypocritical to say you're concerned about crime and then merely say that nothing needs to be done about it except ensure that everyone has access to guns. As if somehow that will be enough.
My point is that you seems to be extolling gun ownership as something that prevents crime, almost as an ideal. I dont see it that way. If youre as concerned about crime you say you area then you'll take on board my point about the underlying issues.
This is my last word on this as its late here (4.30am!!) and i dont think we're going to have much more to say to each other, so entrenched are your views on gun ownership and America's 'greatness'.
Regards
Alan
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Goodnight Alan,
It's late here too. (12:10AM).
I'm not advocating a soft on crime stance. Quite the opposite actually.
The government needs to come down HARD on crime, especially violent crime. They also need to protect and uphold our 2nd ammendment rights to "keep and bear arms" and the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".
Any criminal who is taken out while breaking in to someone's home, violating a child or a woman, stealing an old woman's welfare check, murdering, raping, kidnapping, etc., will never do that again if a citizen that's in danger gives him a one way ticket off this earth!
If you'll notice, I haven't said anything bad about your country. I have no reason to. And you have no reason or right to run this country down. When you run down America, you are running down Americans. If you ever move here and start paying taxes, voting and taking part in our system of government, then you have the right to run it down all you want.
Until then, please keep your offensive remarks on the other side of the pond.
Bob
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 12/27/09 08:40 AM.
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Alan, May I please address some of your points; Quote:
Adequate enforcement and better policing
Most Americans are for the above, however we don't want, nor will we tolerate living in a police state. The police are corrupt enough without us handing over even more power to them. And even the good and corrupt ones will tell you they can't protect everyone.
Quote:
Is there an aim to do away with a gun owning culture?
There is vocal minority that is trying to do just that. They are going against the very constitution that this country is based upon. The second ammendment is key to the freedoms we enjoy. That's why gun and ammunition sales are at an all time high. The American public will never allow that to happen.
Quote:
Spend more on education
I don't think there's any country in the world that spends as much on education as the USA. We actually spend more on education in OTHER countries than many of these countries spend on their own people.
Quote:
Collective provision
Lets' see. Unemployment, welfare, food stamps, WIC, Medicare, Medicaid, public housing, Social Security, and the list goes on. Every effort is being made to care for the needy in this country and others by the USA. Hell, we even provide most of these services to illegal immigrants! For the most part, crime isn't commited by the needy. It's done by people who choose this way of life, or by people who are inherently evil.
Crime has to be addressed by the police AND the general public. It's cooperation between the 2 that will reduce crime in our individual neighborhoods.
Quote:
America's greatness
The USA is great! To deny this is to deny history, past and present.
I hope someday that you have as much pride in your country as I have in my own. Don't put my country down and I won't put yours down.
Take care and good luck Alan,
Bob
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 12/26/09 11:33 PM.
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Allan:
I'm sure you're a good guy and all, but isnt it kind of asinine to question the motives of a country that, without her help, an entire continent would've been summarily run over by Germany? A simple " thanks" would've been nice. I'm a Vet so yeah; It's a touchy subject for me.
Kristen: sadly, I agree with almost everything you said.
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Hey Swanny,
I think I've told you this before, but I thank you and all of the other vets who've served our country.
If it wasn't for people like you, my dad, my brothers, my uncles and both of my grandfathers, then we wouldn't be able to sit around and freely talk about our views of anything without worrying about whether Big Brother was scrutinizing our every word.
Alan doesn't seem to realize that he owes this country a debt he can never repay. What America did gives him the freedom to sit in Scotland and pass judgement on this country and everything it stands for. The least he could do is show gratitude to the vets of this country for saving his country from being under the thumb of the Nazi's.
World War II would have been lost without America. All of the other countries would have fallen in short order.
Bob
Last edited by bobcflatpicker; 12/27/09 08:44 AM.
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Citaat:
Alan,
I knew that with just a little bit of "coaching", you'd let loose with both barrels and show your anti-American hatred in all of it's glory!
Citaat:
Good thing for Europe that us gun toting Americans are always there to bail them out when the going gets tough! Maybe if they allowed their citizens to own guns, they might actually be able to use them instead of having to call on us "redneck cowboys" to save their a**es.
LOL.
Bob
Ehm, let me get this straight: Someone making a critical remark towards the USA's political histoty is called an anti-American and that is therefor a bad person.
An American making remarks that are anti-everything-non-American is plain right?
Thanks for clearing that up for me 
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A part of the issue with the US is the desire to keep our freedoms and privacy. It is considered a right over here. We do not want cameras on every corner and a cop at every door. Some of us would feel we were being watched and oppressed, and may not trust the organization in charge of the cameras and cops anyway. There are other aspects of freedom that come into play that we do not want to compromise for the 'safety'. To some, this sort of 'safety' is confining and restricting, and freedoms have more value. We should not have to compromise freedom for safety, that is how too many countries start down the road to losing all freedom.
I know - if you are not doing anything wrong, then the cameras shouldn't matter.. but its a 'feeling' we would have to adjust to living with. Besides, the 'bad guys' have already figured out how to disable the cameras when they need to, so its a false security.
Crime in this country is more developed and violent than in many places. When gangs get into an area things become much more dicey as there is no respect for others, only members. While working in construction in Chicago I had the opportunity to spend a lot of time with a few 'ex- gang-bangers' that worked construction at the time. I learned a lot about how they view society. You would think that it would be easy to round these guys up, since they will stand on corners and flash signs announcing their gang membership, but alas we have laws about it not being a crime to belong to an organization..
These ex-gang guys told me that if there is a gun or a big dog in the house, the house will probably be left alone... they don't want to get injured they just want to steal and abuse..
I also had a situation in Chicago, just before I moved out to the woods here, where my home and family were protected by just the sound of my 12 gauge being pumped as a group of 'young men' snuck up on my front porch. They left quickly and never returned. It was not their first time visiting that day. They had thrown a smoke bomb into my living room, narrowly missing my 3 day old child about an hour before. (BTW the police never showed up that night after we called).
I was told (by those same co-workers) this was done to check my reaction and get a feel for how I would respond... and the fact that I had gone out alone to see who had done it let them know I was the only male there. The coworkers told me these guys would likely return so I put the large well trained dog in the back yard and the shotgun near the front door. I guess they got a pretty good idea of how I would respond when they did return. Never heard from them again.
So I would say firearms are a pretty good deterrant, even when not used.
What we need is to keep the criminals off the street once they are caught, that is where we most often fail. And if people would be more responsible when they do see crime, instead of turning away... many turn away out of fear, but that cycle needs to be broken. The fear would lessen if more people stood up to stop the crimes in the first place.
Don't want vigilantes, just citizens with a conscience.. the fear is that if someone said 'Joe broke into the pharmacy' that word would get back to Joe before it got to the police... and that is a genuine fear these days.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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Mike,
I hopes this "clears up" things for you.
1. I didn't say Alan was a bad person.
2. Nowhere did I say that I'm "anti-everything-non-American".
3. I'm sick and tired of the anti-American rhetoric, regardless of where it comes from. You've got a right to say it. I've got a right to be offended by it.
Bob
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Bob,
Often when this sort of discussion is going on here, the words "Anti-American" are written down as a reaction on a poster that was criticising USA gouverment policy. It seems like no non-USA citizen is allowed to disagree with or critisize any USA-related subject without being called a USA-hater.
In the your post that I quoted you degraded Europe to a todler that needs to be babysit by the USA. This may come as a suprise to you, but that is very insulting!
Now, back to the original topic (sort of)
Where I live gun-ownership is rare: Only people who practice sportshooting and have at least been a shootingclub member for a year can apply for a permit to have a gun at home. The gun must be stored in a gun safe. Ammo and gun are to be kept seperate. Only semi-automatic weopons are allowed.
I do not have nor do I feel the need have a gun in my house.
If I lived in the USA I might feel different about that. As a matter of fact: reading the posts by some forummembers I defenatly would have a Glock under my pillow!
So, it all boils down to situations. What's the right thing to do in one location/situation doesn't have to work for another place/situaion.
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