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#121674 - 07/20/11 03:45 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: BIABguy]
Matt Finley Offline
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Posts: 17323
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Quote:

I don't know why Flatfoot said you could.




I don't know anything about this topic, but did anyone ask Flatfoot to give an example? Maybe he does know something we could learn from.
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BIAB 2018 Win Audiophile; [& 2018 Mac UltraPak]. Software: Mixcraft, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & monitors.

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#121675 - 07/20/11 03:58 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: Matt Finley]
MartinB Offline
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Registered: 07/14/00
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I'm not a guitar player ... but it appears pretty simple to have BB show notes, tab and fretboard on one screen. Notes and tab are displayed properly for any guitar track. A fretboard pops up whenever you press the, well, fretboard button. Pressing on Play shows a similar appearance as in the Youtube video - up to the note stem gimmicks on the tab staff. Maybe I'm missing something, though ...
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#121676 - 07/20/11 04:31 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: BIABguy]
MartinB Offline
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Registered: 07/14/00
Posts: 4856
Quote:

Does anyone know the name of this software and the platform(s) it runs on?




That's a -> comment from the creator:

Quote:

J'utilise Logic (sur Mac), il permet de faire défiler la partition et j'ai conçu un manche de guitare virtuel qui s'allume à la réception d'un signal MIDI dans la fenêtre Environnement de Logic.


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#121677 - 07/20/11 04:50 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: MartinB]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3352
Loc: WV, USA
Quote:

Maybe I'm missing something, though ...




Martin,

I think there may be some confusion about the term “notation software”. The simplest analogy would be to compare it to going to your local music store and buying a book of blank music staff. Nothing but lines. (I still have a partially used one laying around from many years ago, aka the bad ole days). It’s partially filled with music that I laboriously entered note by note with a pencil.

Fast forward a few years and you have music notation software. You start with a blank slate. You either enter everything manually, import it, or use some sort of MIDI device to enter each note and nuance. (Notice I didn’t say record).

You can either write your own music, or take sheet music and manually enter the whole thing into the program. The programs include options for standard notation and TAB. They will even play the music after you’ve entered it, and use whatever instrument you’ve assigned to each track. You can then print professional quality sheet music, and the sheet music you buy was actually created on a “notation program”.

Examples of “notation programs” are Finale, (which PG Music sells and even offers bundles with BIAB), Sibelious, Guitar Pro, and many others.

BIAB is not a “notation program”. That’s why they sell Finale.
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Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#121678 - 07/20/11 06:43 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: bobcflatpicker]
BIABguy Offline
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Registered: 04/07/08
Posts: 673
Loc: Ontario, Canada
Quote:

Quote:

Maybe I'm missing something, though ...




Martin,

I think there may be some confusion about the term “notation software”. The simplest analogy would be to compare it to going to your local music store and buying a book of blank music staff. Nothing but lines. (I still have a partially used one laying around from many years ago, aka the bad ole days). It’s partially filled with music that I laboriously entered note by note with a pencil.

...
Examples of “notation programs” are Finale, (which PG Music sells and even offers bundles with BIAB), Sibelious, Guitar Pro, and many others.

BIAB is not a “notation program”. That’s why they sell Finale.




Thanks Bob!
Yup, you definitely need to be a guitar player to appreciate the question(s) being posed.

BTW I downloaded and used the Guitar Pro 6 demo to do the job this time, but it was not easy/user friendly, nor did it have all the features that I hoped it had for the job.
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#121679 - 07/21/11 08:44 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: bobcflatpicker]
MartinB Offline
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Registered: 07/14/00
Posts: 4856
Quote:

I think there may be some confusion about the term “notation software”.


Thanks Bob, 'course BiaB doesn't hold a candle to dedicated notation programs, such as Sibelius. Thought it was more about emulating what was being shown on this Youtube video. In terms of emulating the Youtube stuff, BiaB could do that. Plus it was virtually always possible to enter notes or notation into BiaB and have it then played back much in the vein of this Youtube sample.
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#121680 - 07/21/11 09:08 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: MartinB]
flatfoot Offline
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Registered: 06/15/00
Posts: 2181
Loc: Sacramento CA
.
>>>...PG doesn't market itself as a notation/TAB program, and it's definitely not, so I'm not sure why flatfoot said what he did...>>>

1. When I need to print lead sheets quickly, BiaB is my program of choice. While it is true that BiaB does not claim to be a full featured notation program, it fulfills the limited need for lead sheets really well. I can get a song printed in under half an hour, start to finish.

2. The interface-the way BiaB accepts mouse-click entries and figures out the note values is brilliant. Way more intuitive than any other program.

When I need more detailed charts I use Noteworthy, which was recommended by someone on these fora. Very happy with it.
_________________________
Flatfoot sez: Call me when 'Talent-in-a-Box' is ready to ship! -- [8{>

Got some tunes on You Tube:
http://www.youtube.com/user/flatfoot50
.
My BiaB lesson site:
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#121681 - 07/22/11 12:03 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: flatfoot]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Flatfoot,

Thanks for clarifying that. I just wanted to make sure we didn’t mislead BIABguy into thinking he could use BIAB as “notation software”. I know we all love the program, but we shouldn’t misrepresent it as a “one stop” program for all your musical needs. That would just leave folks pissed at being misled. I know I would be. If we tell them it’s the BEST backing tracks software on the planet on WIN or MAC, they’d find it to be to be true.

Finale is probably gonna be the closest to what he’s looking for compared to the vid on a Windows platform. I suggested Guitar Pro as cheaper alternative, (taking into account that Finale costs 9 or 10 times what GP does, and stringed instruments in general), especially for TAB, which was a criteria for BIABguy.
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Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#121682 - 07/22/11 12:16 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: bobcflatpicker]
flatfoot Offline
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Registered: 06/15/00
Posts: 2181
Loc: Sacramento CA
.
>>>.... I know we all love the program, but we shouldn’t misrepresent it as a “one stop” program for all your musical needs...>>>

Yeah,Bob, you are right about that. BiaB would never stack up if it were the only notation program I had.

AND make sure you give Noteworthy Composer a try before you buy any other notation program.

...I wonder if anybody here has both Noteworthy PLUS either Sibelius or Finale. Is there anything Noteworthy WON'T do?

.
_________________________
Flatfoot sez: Call me when 'Talent-in-a-Box' is ready to ship! -- [8{>

Got some tunes on You Tube:
http://www.youtube.com/user/flatfoot50
.
My BiaB lesson site:
http://jdwolfe0.wixsite.com/learnbiab

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#121683 - 07/22/11 12:18 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: MartinB]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3352
Loc: WV, USA
Martin,

Quote:

Thanks Bob, 'course BiaB doesn't hold a candle to dedicated notation programs, such as Sibelius. Thought it was more about emulating what was being shown on this Youtube video. In terms of emulating the Youtube stuff, BiaB could do that.




I have to agree with the first part of your statement, "BIAB doesn't hold a candle to dedicated notation programs". But the second part is terribly misleading. PG Music could emulate something similiar to what he saw on the vid, but a user can't.

I try to encourage every musician or wannabe musician to try BIAB, but I don't misrepresent the product and say it can do everything you want in a music program. PG doesn't offer Finale JUST because they want to make a buck. They do it because it fills a void.
_________________________
Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#121684 - 07/22/11 01:10 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: bobcflatpicker]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3352
Loc: WV, USA
I feel that I have to throw this into the discussion. I hope that PG Music DOES NOT incorporate “notation software” into BIAB, UNLESS they offer it as a separate product.

The cost of BIAB has already gotten prohibitively expensive with the introduction of Real Tracks and Real Band. I wouldn’t want to see it priced “out of reach” of the Joe Blow musician. I haven’t been able to upgrade since 2009 because of the price, and I’m a long time user. That sucks, especially since they’ve incorporated some of the things I’ve specifically asked for, such as treating 8th notes as 8th notes in bluegrass, and not 16th notes. That was a REAL big problem for me.

So I don’t want to see them do anything that will jack the price up EVEN HIGHER! I hope they stick to doing what they do best. Offering the best backing tracks that anyone could want in a user friendly format.

Hopefully someday I can upgrade to what I personally asked Peter Gannon to do in a lengthy thread in which he participated, (thanks Peter), and take advantage of BIAB treating bluegrass as it is written, and not as it’s perceived.
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Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#121685 - 07/22/11 02:21 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: bobcflatpicker]
MartinB Offline
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Registered: 07/14/00
Posts: 4856
Quote:

PG Music could emulate something similiar to what he saw on the vid, but a user can't.



Why?
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#121686 - 07/22/11 04:15 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: MartinB]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3352
Loc: WV, USA
Martin,

Maybe you know something I don't about BIAB. That wouldn't be too difficult.

So please emulate something for us using BIAB in TAB and standard notation with the fretboard that includes backing tracks that don't use tracks from BIAB in any way, shape or form.

Or, ................., realize what this thread is about. Notation software.

P.S. Using a clip from a PG lesson doesn't count, ......, unless you created it. I'm trying to keep from misleading a BIAB user. You appear to be trying to keep telling him he can do what he's looking for with BIAB. Please teach us how to do it.

We'd all like to know.


Edited by bobcflatpicker (07/22/11 04:22 AM)
_________________________
Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#121687 - 07/22/11 07:09 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: bobcflatpicker]
MartinB Offline
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Registered: 07/14/00
Posts: 4856
You might import or enter your guitar play into the melody track, and then make this track a guitar track (Melody|Track Type -> Guitar). Making sure you select 'Tab' in the Notations Window Options, you get your notation along with Tab. Then you'll just need to open up your floating fretboard, align your windows to your liking - and you're all set. Works here.
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#121688 - 07/22/11 01:49 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: MartinB]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3352
Loc: WV, USA
Martin,

I’m going to take one more crack at this. Most musicians who play fretted stringed instruments prefer TAB to standard notation, If you import midi into notation software the standard notation will be correct but the TAB almost certainly will NOT be the way the music is actually played, although it will be plausible or technically correct. What you created may look similar to you, but the TAB and fretboard will almost certainly be wrong.

Why does this matter? For example, an open G string sounds different than a D string fretted at the 5th fret, or an A string fretted at the 10th fret, or a low E string fretted at the 15th fret. But they are all the same note and same octave, yet they sound different, especially on an acoustic guitar. Midi and std. notation treat all these notes the same. Here is an excerpt from something I wrote several years ago concerning TAB vs. std notation.

Quote:

Tablature vs standard notation for stringed/fretted instruments. It’s frequently maligned and often misunderstood by people who don’t play stringed instruments, (and occasionally by those who do play them).

For anyone who may not be familiar with tablature, the number of lines = the number of strings. For example, a guitar has 6 strings and therefore has 6 lines in the notation. A banjo has 5 strings and therefore has 5 lines. A bass guitar has 4 strings and 4 lines, etc. A 0, (zero), on a line means an open string. A number on a particular line means you fret that string on that fret.

In the following, I have given 8 examples of a G major scale, all played in the same octave, in 8 different positions on the guitar. There are other positions you could play this scale in this octave, but “Eight Is Enough”. (I’m showing my age here). Tablature and standard notation are shown.









So TAB doesn’t just tell you what note to play, but where to play it.

Since you don’t play guitar, you might ask “why does it matter which one you use?” It some cases it may not, but each position opens up different possibilities for phrases or licks or ease of fingering. And they sound different when played on an instrument vs. playback of a midi file.

When “pickers” create music notation, they usually aren’t going to be importing a file, but manually entering the notes in TAB instead of std. notation, unless they’re a classical or jazz musician.

While it may be possible to create something that looks similar to the original post in BIAB, it’s extremely unwieldy, time consuming and impractical. And the sheet music when printed is definitely not professional quality, or as Finale calls it, “engraver quality”. Lets add track limitations to the list of reasons.

BIABguy came to the forum for help. Trying to steer him to use BIAB as notation software isn't helping him.

I hope this clears things up. Whew!!!


Edited by bobcflatpicker (07/22/11 02:11 PM)
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Bob
................................
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#121689 - 07/22/11 03:47 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: bobcflatpicker]
MartinB Offline
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Registered: 07/14/00
Posts: 4856
Thanks for the tutorial, Bob. The whole rigmarole makes a whole lot more sense now. The BiaB virtual fretboard allows in principle entering notes to the melody track via clicking on virtual fretboard strings. Notes looking identical on the standard staff indeed show then up at the correct and potentially different fretboard positions when pressing Play. In principle it appears thus possible with BiaB to achieve what was shown in the Youtube example.

BiaB does not seem to be particularly user friendly with this mode of operation, though. Dedicated programs may provide more comfort here.
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#121690 - 07/22/11 05:04 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: MartinB]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3352
Loc: WV, USA
Quote:

Thanks for the tutorial, Bob. The whole rigmarole makes a whole lot more sense now.




You're welcome Martin. Take care.
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Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#121691 - 07/22/11 05:28 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17323
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
That was interesting, Bob. With jazz charts, I never see TAB notation. Thanks.
_________________________
BIAB 2018 Win Audiophile; [& 2018 Mac UltraPak]. Software: Mixcraft, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & monitors.

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#121692 - 07/22/11 06:12 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: Matt Finley]
MusicStudent Offline
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Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 5509
Loc: Chicago
Quote:

That was interesting, Bob. With jazz charts, I never see TAB notation. Thanks.




Matt, Tab is everywhere for us guitarist - even in jazz charts. While, not so much for straight comping, it is very prevalent over in chord-melody tracks (which was actually the examples at the start of this thread).
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#121693 - 07/22/11 06:24 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Notation software [Re: Matt Finley]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3352
Loc: WV, USA
Matt,

I’m glad you found that interesting. I decided to save it in case I ever needed to explain it again.

With fretted stringed instruments, and the numerous ways available to play the same thing in the same octave, TAB is IMHO far superior to std. notation.

When I played piano for a year or so, and fiddle, I obviously used std. notation. But one of the great things about fiddle was that you could take mandolin TAB and use it for fiddle, since they are tuned exactly the same. So the songs I already knew on the mandolin instantly were available on the fiddle, with the exception of dealing with the bow and no frets. Fiddles can be screechy little bastards if you're off by the slightest amount on fingering or bowing.

TAB is an extremely versatile way to convey to someone precisely what’s being played.


Edited by bobcflatpicker (07/22/11 06:36 PM)
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Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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