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WHY LA CLUBOWNERS ARETOTALLY LOST AND SOME ADVICEFORTHEM FROM A PROFESSIONAL MUSICIAN by Dave Goldberg on Friday, January 6, 2012 at 9:53am AS I’VE BEEN LOOKING FOR GIGS LATELY, I’venever seen so many free and low paying gigs. Wellthe economy is bad, so I can understand that a littlebit. However, it is no longer good enough for the musician to be willing to perform for little compensation... READ the Rest here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/78468650/La-Club-Owners
John Conley
Musica est vita
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When the venues aren't paying, Doc, the agents aren't interested.
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It's LA guys. As an LA jazz musician I've talked about this before. There's probably a hundred thousand or more experienced, educated jazz players around here. The ones who are actually making a living are not doing it by playing in clubs. They're in the studios. There's a great little dinner place up in Studio City where top people play just to get their act together while recording their latest album. I don't know how much they make but I've been told not much considering who they are. It's just a paid rehearsal to help gauge crowd reaction just like Jay Leno does every month at the Comedy and Magic Club in Hermosa Beach. Ordinary average good players like me and my friends can't compete with that and all that leaves are the small local places that pay squat because they don't have to. They're hit up daily by people wanting to play.
Bob
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Quote:
It's LA guys. As an LA jazz musician I've talked about this before. There's probably a hundred thousand or more experienced, educated jazz players around here. The ones who are actually making a living are not doing it by playing in clubs. They're in the studios. There's a great little dinner place up in Studio City where top people play just to get their act together while recording their latest album. I don't know how much they make but I've been told not much considering who they are. It's just a paid rehearsal to help gauge crowd reaction just like Jay Leno does every month at the Comedy and Magic Club in Hermosa Beach. Ordinary average good players like me and my friends can't compete with that and all that leaves are the small local places that pay squat because they don't have to. They're hit up daily by people wanting to play.
Bob
Bob,
Is it because it's "Jazz"? As with the shear number of people you have living in that area I would think they have to be venues where a musician can get a gig playing a more popular playlist. Of course those numbers work the other way as well as you may have too many musicians for the gigs . . . just thinking out loud here.
Later,
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No, doesn't matter at all. The Lighthouse in Hermosa Beach is very famous as in "The Lighthouse All Stars recorded live blah, blah". It's one of the iconic jazz places in the history of jazz since WW2. They don't do jazz there anymore except for Sunday mornings and even then I'm not sure if it's every Sunday. I used to do a few of those Sunday gigs but not lately. Their budget has been $250 for at least 15 years. It's the same $250 a 7 piece horn band I used to work with got for playing there on a Friday night in around 1988. Now on the weekends they have different bands every Fri and Sat all kinds of styles. I don't go in there all the time any more like I used to but I know it's still the same $250. Doesn't matter how many people in the band. Four doors down the street from the Lighthouse is Sangrias, the Italian restaurant I used to play once a month on a Friday doing jazz. Same $250 but at least we also got a pretty good dinner. They just sold a 49% interest to three new partners and they fired all the bands effective Dec 1 and they don't have any live music any more. I even stopped in twice last month to check and it's true, no live music. Not that $250 is such a big loss, we had a 5 piece so again $50 each. It's not the money, it's the playing.
In the same area is a nice bar called Suzy's. Nice stage, lights and a sound system. It seats maybe 30 people, they have something happening there every night from open mic to different performers. Nobody gets paid anything, just tips. I used to do a few "gigs" there too if you can call that a gig. Just fun.
I'm not saying there's no live venues for bands there are, just very few and this thread is talking about LA. They're mostly out in Orange County around Disnyland. Lots of hotel lounges and bars that have entertainment. Those gigs are the kind of thing I used to do many years ago. They're all booked through agents and if I really wanted to work I could probably beat the bushes with some of them, acts are always looking for good keyboard players. But then suddenly I would have to commit to 5 or 6 nights a week and I'm not going to do that plus they're not making enough to be worth my while.
The only success story I know is a guy who has a Journey tribute band, killer singer, sounds just like Steve Perry and in addition he plays keys and horns. When he's not gigging with his Journey band he does a single on Fri and Sat at a very upscale place in Newport Beach. Makes $500 by himself but he's a total pro, a live wire when he's performing. Occasionaly they'll have a special thing happening there and he will bring in a couple of guys to play with him. He pays them $75 each, maybe 100 but that's it. He has a book full of good solid players he can call, no problem getting someone to play for that. He books the Journey band for $2-3,000 and does a few things in Vegas so he keeps busy enough. I've subbed for his keyboard player a few times and I hold out for $100. Thing is I was getting $100 in 1978...
There's another guy who has a big band and I make $200 with him but he only gigs maybe 5 times a year. Like my Journey friend when he works it's around $3,000, strictly high brow stuff like a Christmas party at the LA Country Club I did last month. The problem with all these gigs is they're few and far between. I'll bet there's still at least 10 good solid well rehearsed big bands around here going after those gigs. I'm lucky to work with him because for years I was the second call, but lately their regular guy doesn't seem to be available. It's not because I'm better than him, I've heard him, he's solid. Who knows what the deal is maybe it's a health issue, whatever it is I'm happy to work with them, it's a killer band.
Bob
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I've often thought that all the creative people in a town ought to pool their resources, lease a hall, collaborate with all the natural support niche markets like artists, musicians, caterers, flea marketers, hot dog vendors, pizza shops, video gamers, and build a reputation for having something going on 24-7. That way their marketing efforts would build momentum instead of requiring the same effort over and over for each low paying gig.
There was a guy here a few years ago who built a huge gym for a gymnastics business. Unfortunately, he couldn't pay for the building based on the limited income generated by his gymnastics customers. He eventually lost the gym and somebody else bought it.
The new guy got in touch with everybody he could think of who could use a gym on a regular basis. Now the place is booming with Gymnastics, Karate, Cheerleading, Inline Skating, Roller hockey, basketball, volleyball, private parties etc
By thinking outside the box and collaborating with others who could share the expense of a really deluxe building,everybody won. Alone none of them could have afforded the gym building... but together, they could.
I'm thinking that an artistic collaboration could draw crowds away from the other places that were too cheap to pay for live music, and they'd either have to start paying a reasonable amount or just get used to having fewer customers
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To Bob & others,
Thank you for that interesting insight into the LA music scene. Wow, I didn't realise things were so tough! Is that the general status quo for the rest of the US? Canada? Or mainly in the major cities?
At the risk of sounding like a prima donna, and to paraphrase a supermodel, "I wouldn't get out of bed for $50.00”, given that a four hour gig with travel time, set up/pull down time can stretch the job to seven or eight hours.
Although I haven't been playing regularly for quite a long time, when I finished playing in the early 1990's we were still getting $100.00 per person in a four piece band, for 4 hours work. These days the going rate is from $150.00 - $200.00 per player in a duo or trio, and about $200-250 for a good soloist/singer. Very little work for instrumentalists only – just a few restaurants. During the 70s & 80's our five piece was working 2 nights a week in regular gigs, and earning $60.00-$90.00 each. Keep in mind also that tipping is not generally practised here – the best you can normally expect from an appreciative guest would be a round of drinks.
Having said that, I understand that Clubs here in Oz are quite different that the ones you have in the US. Our clubs are mainly registered non-profit entities, ("owned" by the members) and generally come under the grouping of sports/social clubs (football, lawn bowls, ex services, golf, ethnic etc) and they are permitted to have poker machines (slots) which return great profits, and in many venues one can place bets on horse races, greyhound races, and have types of lotto etc. They offer reasonably priced meals and drinks, standard entertainment is generally free, and much of the profits are channelled back into the community by way of sponsorships of local sporting teams, charities etc, so they are well supported.
Please don't think that I'm criticising any of you that enjoy playing, irregardless of whether you make lots of money or not. Hey, you're playing music, and enjoying yourself, which is fantastic. I sometimes wish I still was.
I'd be very interested to hear comments from working musos in other areas.
Thank you for allowing my indulgence.
Cheers,
Keith
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Keith,
I'll answer for South Louisiana as follows: New Orleans is always jammin, but that is because New Orleans is always jammin. So there are many bands of all sizes playing the many live music venues 5-7 nights a week. Also there are the Mardi Gras Clubs and numerous Social Clubs who have "dances" on many occasions throughout the year. Now for the bad news . . . everyone, and I mean everyone seems to be a musician in New Orleans so even with all the venues some musicians get left out, however the rule of thumb is if you are worth hiring (and it doesn't hurt to have a connection or two) you can get a gig in the New Orleans area. Also I'll add the Mississippi Gulf Coast and it's many casinos keep many musicians working and they are just a short drive from Nawlins.
While I play gigs from the Mississippi Gulf Coast and New Orleans area I am located just outside of Baton Rouge, La. so I try to book as many in my area as possible. With this said there are only a handful of bars/clubs with live music in my area and in all honesty they too seem to want to get musicians on the cheap so I very seldom do a gig in one of these.
On the other hand we have numerous local business who have annual parties, from summer picnics and seafood boils to the usual Christmas parties and many of these hire musicians. They are also the American Legions, VFW's and other fraternal organizations who have dances a couple of times a year plus the Country Clubs. Add to this the ever growing number of Retirement Communities and we have more than enough venues at which to perform, and the better news is the going rate for a good act starts at 100.00 per hour per man for a single or duo type act.
While they still are a few good weddings available (but most use djs now) I left out weddings as I gave up playing weddings quite a few years ago, just too much hassle for this old picker. Keep in mind I am not saying that there is enough work for a single or a duo to support a family, just enough to make some extra scratch and keep you in the latest equipment.
PS: In an effort not to not jump all over this thread I thought I'd post my recipe for getting started (or in some cases re-started) playing live gigs on the Tricks & Tips Forum.
Later,
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Quote:
. . . everyone, and I mean everyone seems to be a musician in New Orleans so even with all the venues some musicians get left out,
...Keep in mind I am not saying that there is enough work for a single or a duo to support a family, just enough to make some extra scratch and keep you in the latest equipment.
This is exactly it, Danny. I haven't been on the road for 30 years so I don't know this from personal experience but musicians like to talk to each other and I've met lots of players here in LA who are from all over and it's the same story. The problem is the internet and all the software available including our beloved PG stuff. Anybody who has the desire can make themselves into a pretty decent player with some practice. There's no trick to it at all, just do it. That plus what I've talked about for years, all the colleges, universities and music schools are turning out highly trained music grads by the thousands every year and the majority of them are very good. Supply and demand, baby. What you said about NO applies to every music center in the world. LA, NY, Nashville, NO wherever. Everybody's uncle, cousin, brother and dog is a performer and unfortunately a very good one in most cases.
It is what it is.
Keith, very insteresting description of the music scene Down Under. Same as Up Here. Nobody makes any money, just enough to have some fun and pay for equipment, that's it.
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Is that the general status quo for the rest of the US? Canada? Or mainly in the major cities?
I can speak about Cleveland Ohio in some depth. Here we are in the home or the Rock and Roll Hall Of Fame. The music scene in the 80s was lively. There were more places to play than good bands to play them. That was great until about 1984 or so when the state drinking age was changed from 18 to 21. When that happened, half the bars closed down. That meant there were suddenly more good bands than places to play. Bands, just to play, started cutting each other's throats to where a band that used to get $1500 or more per night would play for $500.
All these years later, those rock club places are LONG since gone. Now bands play in restaurant type places that have music at night. Factor in the pariah known as "jam night" when all the wannabe players who aren't good enough to be in bands come out of the woodwork to go to places and play the 2-3 songs they know well enough to stumble through FOR FREE, and good bands don't have any chance to play at any decent venue until summer when there are outdoor venues, festivals, etc.... My band plays once a year at a reunon show that has reached "place to be" status and we sell out a very nice 450 seat venue every year. We get paid well for it and they make a ton of money so everybody walks away happy.
The scene here is awful. Open mic nights typically have 2 good performers and 7 bad ones. A lot of "I am singing with..." and "I am backing up...." from people who don't really play but want to delude themselves into thinking they are relevant by being at all the right places. Really bad bands get gigs because they work really cheap and the bar doesn't car as long as there is SOME band. Your typical musician here plays in 3 or 4 bands, none of which rehearse, and they show up and wing 40 songs, get their $65-70 each, and move on to tomorrow. All the scab bands play pretty much the same 30 songs and maybe 10 outside of the cliche list.
As I tell them, when you play at city park summer fairs to people who never hear a band, it's easy to sound good to them.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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Gee Eddie, you're even more cynical than I am, didn't think that was possible.
I think that everybody posting on this thread is 60ish. We're "old pros" and most of us pay no attention to what's happening with current music except for country. Even though country certainly is big, rap and hip hop is probably 10 times bigger if not more. With hip hop the star is the DJ and there's few live musicians, it's all prerecorded. I suspect Eddie that you don't pay attention to that scene but there probably is a lively hip hop scene in your area run by DJ's. That's where everybody under 40 is going you're probably checking out the wrong places. Talk to young people say 25-35 and ask them where they go on a Friday night.
A few years ago I was hired by a good friend for his daughters wedding as a single. She wanted traditional wedding stuff just for the ceremony, I didn't play the party afterwards. That party was all hip hop with, I hate to admit, a very good DJ. That DJ is a real performer just like we are. He knew the material intimately just like we know all about our stuff that's 30-50 years old. I was watching the party for about 30 minutes thinking about how would I do something like that and the answer is I wouldn't. I have no clue about that stuff and there's little for me to play on keyboards anyway. I would have to somehow learn about all those current hip hop artists, understand what they're saying, have all those songs memorized, grab a mic and DJ. Right. Grandpa DJ's a rap party. Ain't gonna happen. Oh yeah, this party was at a big restaurant complex and there were three other wedding parties going on and I checked them out too. All the same, all rap and hip hop run by DJ's.
This is just the normal cycle of things. All the thousands of big bands and lounge crooners doing Glenn Miller and Perry Como were suddenly being replaced by all of our beloved stuff starting in the 50's on through the 70's. Those guys fought it, bitched about it, talked about how terrible this rock and roll stuff was and how the quality of music is going down the tubes. Sound familiar? Now it's our turn, simple as that.
Bob
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Quote:
It's LA guys. As an LA jazz musician I've talked about this before. There's probably a hundred thousand or more experienced, educated jazz players around here. The ones who are actually making a living are not doing it by playing in clubs. They're in the studios. There's a great little dinner place up in Studio City where top people play just to get their act together while recording their latest album. I don't know how much they make but I've been told not much considering who they are. It's just a paid rehearsal to help gauge crowd reaction just like Jay Leno does every month at the Comedy and Magic Club in Hermosa Beach. Ordinary average good players like me and my friends can't compete with that and all that leaves are the small local places that pay squat because they don't have to. They're hit up daily by people wanting to play.
Bob
There's a church in Eagle Rock/Pasadena area called Christian Assembly. In the worship band rotation there, at least in the past:
Abraham Laboriel
Alex Acuna
Justo Almario
The worship leader is Tommy Walker. I've been there. The place just rocks since they only sing songs that everyone knows - the whole place is the worship band. Stage area is smaller than most live music venues and clubs/bars - and you have that kind of talent worshiping at once, it's pretty amazing.
OK - that's for free in a dinky little church on a Sunday. So I believe jazzmammal when he says that the city is full of jazz cats.
-Scott
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Gee Eddie, you're even more cynical than I am, didn't think that was possible.
(Doing my best Kramer impersonation.....)
Oh... it's possible....
I look at the ads every day in the local rags and it's just sad. verything is a "tribute" band. Well, tribute is just "cover" with a very narrow scope. Someone here did a tribute to Dio. How much more of a footnote could there be than Dio, and they did a TRIBUTE to him?
Oy....
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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Quote:
... Someone here did a tribute to Dio. How much more of a footnote could there be than Dio, and they did a TRIBUTE to him? Oy....
Dio was a pretty big deal in the heavy metal genre.
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..just to get this topic to appear correctly in the forum view...carry on...
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I think we should all be happy playing around with biab with a minimum yearly outlay for the upgrades and not worry about making any or much monry from it.
And good luck to the people who turn up at a open mic night sing a few songs enjoy themselves as well as giving their ego a boost by performing in front of an audience (and it doesn't matter how good or bad they are) or people or bands who will pay for $50 a night each.
Its not for us to run them down for doing this, they have as much right to do this as the guys who would only play for big money many years ago, and now blame everything and anyone for the those long gone days.
Just my opinion.
musiclover
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Transfer eddie1261 view to the country circuit & "animal clubs" and that is what happen to my gig's. I don't think I have heard the term "scab" in any way but the way eddie1261 said it, as a derogatory statement. Well, so be it, I was a "scab" for over 20 years, playing drums in 2 steady & 4 or 5 "pick up" bands 4 to 6 nights a week, very rarely making less then $75 for 4 hours, usually $100 +, up to about 10 years ago. Of course after you take out taxes it is a lot less. I use to be a "card carrying member" of the local so-called Musicians Union for a year....and they never helped me get one gig, and actually lost me gig's...so I became a scab, the money was a lot better!  I played a Jam Night at one American Legion club for over 25 years every Sunday night, and made $40 every night for over 25 years. Free food, free drinks, could leave stuff set up, and it was within 20min of our home. Lots of "armatures" with hearts as big as any "pro" I ever met. This was their night and we did our best to back them. And in reality I had lots of beginner drummers come in & take a 1/2 a set at times, and even came in early to "teach them" some stuff....it was a very enjoyable time of my carrier for sure. It is a different world now for a musician, and it will NEVER go back to the "glory days" of live bands no matter where you live...just a little IMHO..... 
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Scabs.....
Taken in the context it is usually used, a scab is someone who goes into a job and works cheaper than the guy who should have the job. The work is usually substandard, but Mr Factory owner doesn't care how well the widgets are made, just that a lot of them are made.
Transfer that concept to music and jam night, you have scab bands going in who never rehearse, often don't even know each other before showing up to the gig, songs don't start and stop correctly and cleanly because there was no rehearsal, and most of the night ends up boring 12 bar blues because the players don't know the same songs. We are from the same place, so you know the scene here. 45 listings for needy people to go play for free every week all to get approval from their drunken friends who do not play, would not know good from bad, think hanging around musicians gives them a free membership card to "the club", and just care that they can drink in a place where there's music, all the time not caring that the musician are being exploited.
Just some personal things from my perspective, and pretty much why I don't have a band (I am difficult to work with).... there is ZERO tolerance if you are in my band. There are 6 other nights in the week for you to drink. When you play on stage with me, you drink soft drinks or water. No exceptions, no excuses. I don't care if you make mistakes in the arrangement because I didn't work you hard enough in the basement, but make ONE mistake because you are impaired by alcohol or any substance, and you will be fired in mid song. I will play without you before I will enable your addiction. (Yes, I am an alcoholic.)
For every minute we spend on that stage, we will spend 100 minutes in that basement. My bands WILL be tight. The arrangements will be crisp, the starts and stops will be clean. We will rehearse until I say it's right. Bring a lunch. If you don't like that idea, the door opens out, too.
When rehearsal starts at 7pm, that means 7pm, not 7:10, not 7:12. 7pm. And don't come walking in with your fast food bag and expect to eat on my time. MUSIC starts at 7. Change your strings and drum heads at home, or come early. You can be early, on time, or late. 2 of those things are okay. One is not.
Nobody "sits in" with my band. Ever. If you knew how to play, you wouldn't be off on prime time gig night doing the pub crawl hoping someone asks you to come up and play those 2 songs you know.
But you know what the result is? A really good band that DOESN'T have to play AWFUL songs like Moondance and Brown Eyed Girl and Mustang Sally to fill a night.
JCS, private mail me. You being from this area, you will know my band history. I was in 2 of the best bands northeast Ohio ever saw, and 2 more that could have gotten there had we not decided to go different directions. The work ethic was there. Musical direction was the issue.
But to just play to play, nope. If I play, it has to be something people are going to talk about for weeks after. Otherwise it's just mailing it in for a paycheck. 55 years and a Bachelors Degree later, I respect music too much to treat it like a prostitute.
PS. I KNOW I am a dictator....
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
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2. Send it to us.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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User Video: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Paket | Was ist Neu
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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Forums66
Topics81,635
Posts735,274
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Jan 19th, 2020
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