PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Off-Topic I really need to ask general equipment questions (rather long)

I often talk about how I am "old school", and I think I had better elaborate what I mean before I ask what will be newbie level questions to many of you.

I got out of music in 1993. I stayed away from it for 16 years. And when I say stayed away, I mean exactly that. I listened to only my old CDs, never went to see a band, I have not watched MTV or VH-1 in 20 years because it isn't music anymore... That being said, I was also away from the evolution of equipment and recording. The last recording I did in those years was on 2 inch tape!

So now I wander back into music and face this new to me thing called "digital". With this new thing called "digital" comes a lot of new terminology. Many of you do this full time, heavy part time, or every spare minute time. I am just a hobby guy. When I get a thought for a song, I go up and scratchpad it. However, that doesn't move me forward in the learning process, just in the creation process, and I still produce pretty much like I used to, trading the 2 inch tape for Adobe Audition.

So, my questions.....

I see the term "control surface" a lot. I don't know what that really means outside of assuming it is some kind of device to control channel levels. That's what I do with my Mackie analog mixer. Is that similar in concept to what a control surface does in digital? Scott sent me a link to a beautiful and affordable piece of Tascam equipment that I may buy (except that it's only 8 channels - can I use 2 of them?) as a learning tool.

Scott also used the term in an email "mixing inside the box". I can only again assume, but I think he meant "mixing on the computer inside the software". And by extension I also assume that once this control surface I can make channel level changes and RB will record those changes if automation is enabled. What I don't see that Tascam unit is audio outputs. How does the sound get routed to my speakers if they don't go through my mixer? (Remember, that is the way I know. Out of the interface, into a mixer, and to my speakers.)

Without any feedback I picture that I need 2 interfaces. That's the only way I can see getting audio to my speakers given that the Tascam control surface doesn't have audio outs. The Tascam would connect via USB as inputs and the outputs would still go through the other interface, be it the MOTUs (which would become moot) or the M-Audio.

Is that the signal/control path I would use?

I'm an old one, but am a computer geek.
Don't have the Cojones of most of the audio vets on this site.

Using BIAB and REALBAND with plugins is "inside the box"

Control surface/s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_control_surface


Mixing inside the box....That's inside the PC your using. Link is better.
http://www.futureproducers.com/forums/pr...ide-box-282926/

Making a stab guess, actually know a bit because of my Older Alesis USB 12 mixer.
It only had USB stereo ability or rca jack stereo or digital stereo abilities to and from the unit.
The newer USB units have abilities to use whole group of channels via usb and PC software inside the box.

This to me would be ideal tool to have, but lucky to have what I now have.

Sidetracked a bit,but working with you folks and the various audio setups now know
now to use the Stereo only DIGIATL ports from my PC to the Alesis. Ideal for my unit.
Nother project tho.

Later

Be careful, one can get all ied up around the equipment and miss the song. I'd hate to see you turn into yet another constant gearslutz poster, you know, all about the equipment but never actually much about the song.

"Run what ya brung"

Which is my term, borrowed from my mispent youth hanging around the Western Pennsylvania drag racing tracks, to describe the act of using what you already have at hand to its utmost, actually producing good sounding recordings with it.

Anyone who follows that line of direction will find that Providence steps in concerning the equipment and the obtaining thereof.

Write songs.

Record songs.

Rinse, repeat.

Work out in that respect, and all the rest will fall into line, you will find out exactly what you need to do as you go. There is really no sitution where you put together all this junk and then you are magically ready to start doing what you could have - and should have - been doing in the first place.


--Mac

I wholeheartedly support Mac's points above. With that said, it was a behringer control surface with motorized faders. That's all that it does, control levels, sends, etc. in your DAW software the way you like to do it on your analog mixer. There's only 8 sliders, cuz you only have 8 fingers to use at a time. You assign which tracks of your unlimited number of tracks you have in the DAW software to the sliders. You mix a certain number of tracks the old school way-with faders, except all that is happening are commands to make level changes inside the DAW software - not actual gain changes. It's non-destructive; meaning, you can re-fade it till the cows come home.

I agree with Mac - don't dive into the deep end of the pool if you aren't ready to swim there.

BTW - you don't have to go through a mixer to send signal to your speakers. Nearly all sound cards have some outputs that you can connect to monitor speakers. I've never had a mixer in my home 'studio' since 1996 time frame. Last time I used a mixer at home was when I was doing some 4 track TEAC reel-to-reel stuff. Early 1980's, fiddling around as a high school student. Didn't have anything in the late 80's to mid 90's and all my songs during that time were sequenced midi using hardware sequencers. Then I heard about PTPA from a friend and made the leap into the box. Been mixing inside it ever since.

-Scott

"Control Surface" is Piano Roll in a Box for volume! I never used a mixer on a computer, had no need with the Piano Roll. But I'm a cheapskate Eddie!

Eddie,

You are in no way limited to eight channels in a control surface. You can have as many as you want--just as long as you are willing to pay the price. The great news is that a $90,000 control surface with a properly equipped and configured DAW can rival the performance of a million-dollar-plus studio--again given that you have the basics in hand, i.e., room, players, repertoire, etc., etc., etc. (Just wanted to see how far you'd go.)

A friend of mine has his basement equipped with the TASCAM DM-4800 48-channel digital mixer coupled to a homebrew DAW (mind you, he is in charge of networked PCs for a major power utility, so it's quite a machine) running Steinberg Nuendo 4, Cubase's really big brother. He's producing cuts good enough for broadcast and probably for CD. For less than $3500 plus DAW and software you, too, can be in the music bidness for real.

If you need fewer channels you can spend less. But once you learn the thing the automation and hands-on control of the software make recording a joy. Watching the motorized faders work is just cool. Remembering that it can remember settings for multiple recordings so that you don't have to write them down or remember them is plain awesome.

One suggestion as far as getting all the duckies in a row. I know (analog) recording. I know computers, mostly. And I know a little about music. But pulling it all together in a DAW-based studio about had me whupped. I recommend "PC Recording Studios for Dummies," which is far less condescending than it sounds. The hardware is a tad dated, but all the concepts are there. It really helped me put together my modest digital studio (which is about to become slightly less modest thanks to the wonks here).

I've probably said much that isn't related to what you're going after; I do that. But I hope I've helped shed some light on your quest for production excellence.

Eddie, you referred to Tascam equipment "with only 8 channels".

I use a Tascam FW-1884. Yes, it looks like it has only 8 faders for channels, plus a master fader, but those 8 faders are in four banks that you choose using two arrow buttons. This gives me control of 32 channels with those 8 faders. I have never even gone beyond the second bank.

This has been greatly informative so far! I love you guys!!!

Matt said:

Quote:

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Yes, it looks like it has only 8 faders for channels, plus a master fader, but those 8 faders are in four banks that you choose using two arrow buttons. This gives me control of 32 channels with those 8 faders.

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My question there is if there are only 8 faders, and they are bank assignable, how do I make changes to channels 2, 7, and 11 at the same time, because it sounds like 1-8, 9-16, 17-24 and 25-32 would be the configuration. That makes me think I can only mix 1-8 at one time, 9-16 at one time, etc.... I just don't get the concept of not having 16 faders there for 16 channels of music. Granted I can only have fingers on 8 at a time, but how often do it get 1-8 like I want them and then move on to 9-16 (and I rarely, if ever, go past 12).

The major thing that is throwing me in interfacing with the computer. If it is a USB connection, I then select that (Tascam) device in RB as my outputs when I mix down for print, and assign each track a channel 1 thru 12 (I will use 12 there because again I never go past 12).

Right now with the MOTUs I have to assign each channel to which MOTU and which channel ON the MOTU, so for example, my track one is assigned to "424(1) 1,2", and panned hard left to come out of #1 on the MOTU, and plugged into channel 1 on my mixer. Track 2 is "424(1) 1,2" and panned hard right to come out of #2 on the MOTU, and plugged into channel 2 on my mixer. And so forth until I get to 8. Then I route to "424(2) 1,2" and that send the channel to the second MOTU unit.

That is probably as old school as it gets, and I really DO want to work digital. I just don't have anybody around to show me how. All my friends run home studios close to the way I do. There is one guy here but we are not on a level where we know each other outside of here. I would buy the Tascam unit Scott recommended to me and sell the MOTU stuff TODAY if I thought it would be a smooth transition.

So I guess I can sum this installment up by asking "How do I mix 12 channels on 8 faders?"

I should also ask, when doing dubs, how would I route INTO the computer? Where do I plug in the mic, the keyboard..... Does this type of control surface ELIMINATE the M-Audio Fast Trak Pro or work WITH it, M-audio for in, Tascam for out?

And I need to also ask how do I plug INTO RB? Would the Tascam control surface REPLACE the M-Audio or work WITH it, the M-Audio for input and the Tascam for output?

Double post. Sorry.

First, changing the major part of your gear is never going to be a "smooth transition".

Time out: what exactly is the Tascam gear Scott recommended?

Yes, on my FW-1884 I can plug in microphones (up to 8) and MIDI (up to 4).

In your example, if I had to try to control the levels on tracks 2, 7 and 11, I would move the tracks around in the DAW so all three fall in the same bank. In this example, swapping tracks 1 and 11 would do it and put all the needed tracks on bank one. For convenience, I might also then swap 3 and 7, so new tracks 1, 2 and 3 that need adjustment are all together on the board.

EDIT: you have one more question. You would connect a TASCAM control surface unit such as the FW-1884 as both input and output in your DAW. You want the fader movement in the DAW to affect the Tascam, and vice versa. This is done in SONAR as a separate menu item for Control Surface, and I would guess other DAWs would have something comparable.

All this is great, and if you have unlimited money fun to have, but just mixing on the screen, and sending the signal in thru your mackie is fine. that is how all of us do it one way or the other. Just make music man.

I spend 10 years in constant search for the perfect DAW, now i just use RB, and a stereo card fronted with a Yamaha mixer board. I often wonder how many songs i could have written and recorded, had i just dove in and not worried about the tools so much.

Scott did not recommend Tascam as I stated. It was a Behringer B-Control Fader BCF2000. Sweetwater has it (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BCF2000) and it looks beautful. Difference is that Scott knows a LOT more about this stuff and actually, how should I word this, knows what he's doing..... LOL!!

If you look at that unit you won't see "inputs" like I know "inputs" to mean.

I'm so confused.....

To all who have posted thus far - In a private message to Eddie regarding his MOTU technical challenge and win, I had mentioned that I thought Eddie could accomplish his goal of live 'fingers on faders' mixing, with a much simpler setup than the dual computer, dual MOTU, analog mixer setup - by mixing inside the box with a control surface.

I am not a gear lover, nor am I a guy who has to have the latest software. In fact, I would guess that most people in this thread have spent way more on their software and hardware than I have - if they have made regular updates to their PG products over the years.

Eddie had some goals in the other mega thread which I was pointing out alternative ways of accomplishing the same goals, but perhaps with a technically simpler solution.

One of the goals: 'Live' mixing using fingers on faders.

This can be achieved destructively; that is, permanent changes, by the dual MOTU, dual computer, analog mixer in the signal chain method. Send out signal, mix live in the analog board, print it to new tracks in the second MOTU/Computer.

However, it can also be achieved non-destructively in the box, one computer, with a control surface. This all assumed pre-recorded material is on-hand. Remember, the goal that I understood was live mixing, not necessarily live multi-channel recording, nor live multi-channel outs to 'tape', since the tape is 'in the box'.

Eddie, you are not confused. Try watching this video of a guy simply setting the BCF2000 channels to tracks in Reaper. He is not recording any audio - he is simply recording the fader moves - which is the whole purpose of a control surface - controlling volumes, fades, effect parameters, etc. with knobs and sliders instead of mouse movements or off-line processing. What this video demonstrates is simply recording of fader automation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzjntcBx7wQ&feature=related

There are some audio/midi I/O boxes that have a control surface built in. Many of the Tascam recorders, from what I understand, can function this way as well. I think that's probably what Matt has access to.

Think of control surfaces as just another way to manipulate what is going on inside of the computer - in our case it's mimicing operations that you are doing on audio signals OUTSIDE the computer with the mixer.

Whether or not this is right for you is a different matter altogether. You can make use of one of these BCF2000 units in the MOTU setup you have right now, as long as PG software can record automation.

As far as I understand it as well, you can assign tracks that are non-adjacent in your DAW software, to adjacent faders on the BCF2000. So you might have 26 tracks in the DAW software, and you did a bad job of grouping channels and have the kick drum on track 1, snare on 5, hihat on 16, 3 rack toms on 21, 22 and 23, and a pair of overheads on 25 and 26. I believe (though unconfirmed), you could assign these DAW tracks to the 8 faders on the BCF2000 for one 'mix-down' session - except you aren't doing anything to the audio, just the playback volume of the audio, for those 8 channels.

Well, lunch hour is over and I must get back to work. Hopefully that clarifies some things a bit.

Using the control surface can eliminate all the work of sending out multiple audio channels to an analog mixer (which will introduce some noise - guaranteed), and then re-recording the live-mixed audio to new audio tracks either in the same machine or in a different machine.

-Scott

I may be missing something here but Real Band does not support control surfaces correct? That means another mega thread from Eddie in the Sonar, Cubase, Reaper (or whatever forum) figuring it out. The problem with that is those guys in the other forums won't put up with the 20 questions thing like we do. You get one or two basic answers and then like Arnold said in his Teutonic accent in Predator I think, "You on yu own!".

Bob

Hi Eddie,

I use a BCF2000 with reaper for all my mixing. its great for what I want. The Reaper forum is also very friendly and helpful. There's even a "Noobie Forum" just for beginners.

Its real easy to change faders from 1-8 to 9-16 with just a button press. You can see all of them onscreen so you don't need to wonder where they're set to. I use a "Klinke setup" which is downloadable from the reaper website. You can use more than one BCF2000 at the same time if you want to. It does take a little bit of time setting it up at first, and its helpful to print out templates, to tell you what all the buttons do.

It is so nice to have real faders and pan controls, as well as mute and solo buttons. Play, stop, rewind, fast forward. you can also arm tracks. play looping.

I'd like to see Real band and Biab, both accept control surface data. perhaps in the future.

Right now, I just drag my tracks over to Reaper, and after setting up tempo, and placing some Markers at verses and choruses, I can do just about anything I want with the tracks.

Andrew

That's not a big thing for me. I can compose in RB and move them to Sonar and mix to print from there. I agree though, that it would be nice if RB wwas 1000% full featured, and they are getting there. Every new version and patch between versions adds something new and positive.

Okay after watching and translating screen images and narration to mental notes, it appears that my one question is answered. I need both units, the M-Audio to get the sound from the software to the speakers, and the Behringer to sends digital control information to the software.

If for no other reason, I need to buy one because they look cool....

I'm not familiar with the Behringer unit (never had good luck with Behringer products) so my answer was based on the Tascam line. To my knowledge, all the Tascam units that are control surfaces also are audio/MIDI interfaces. If you have just a control surface though, you would indeed need the other device for audio & MIDI connections. The control surface, probably using USB, is still both input and output, or at least it should be. You want to see faders moving on the device and the screen, whichever you adjust.

By the way, BIAB does come with built-in support for one control surface of sorts, the Frontier Design Transport. Although it's discontinued, I can vouch for it working great with BIAB.

The future is probably in iPad software. We already have a very nice BIAB Remote app that shows a lot of promise. I have most recently been experimenting with Splashtop Streamer to control the whole PC remotely.