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#175627 - 10/09/12 09:34 AM [RealBand] Re: Making "the last mix" [Re: eddie1261]
Kemmrich Offline
Expert

Registered: 02/27/07
Posts: 1814
Quote:

...

And there again, 10 different people will tell you 10 different "the best way" stories. "You want a lot of sound deadening material." And the next reply says "Don't overdo it with the sound deadening material." ... They constantly contradict each other. ...




I think if you read enough "experts" as opposed to general forum posters (like me!), then the contradictions start to fade away alittle.

For proper mixing, everyone agrees on this point: You have to be able to trust what you are hearing. That means:
1.) good placement of listener and monitors in a given space
2.) Best quality monitors you can afford
3.) Adequate treatment to reduce mid and high frequency reflections and deal with bass nulls and spikes.

#3 has a lot of controversy, but the consensus seems to be:
a) Measure your room using an omni-directional mic and free analysis software. Actually measure using a few possible monitor listening locations (if possible).
b) Print out the graphs and send to pro acoustic suppliers along with room dimensions and layout to get suggestions on what to do. (or post to sites like gearslutz.com)
c) buy or build the least amount of acoustic absorption material that you think will help out (1st reflections and some kind of corner bass trapping).
d) re-measure and see if it has solved your major issues.
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#175628 - 10/09/12 09:40 AM [RealBand] Re: Making "the last mix" [Re: 90 dB]
rockstar_not Offline
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Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7256
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Eddie,

The acoustic treatment items I have described to you in the past are well documented physics/acoustics behavior that are tried and true. I could break out the Euler's formulas and teach the room acoustics portion of my master's program, but I think that would quickly bore folks to death.

The room does matter when you mix. Your monitor placement relatively to walls and other reflective surfaces does matter when you mix.

My mentioning of using some reference recordings earlier in the thread should help you to see how they translate to the various playback systems you employ. Put your mixing of songs aside and do that homework first.

Try to avoid some of the no-no's of monitor placement - one of them being too close to walls and or reflective surfaces. Some things that can happen - too close to walls - you might be over emphasizing the room acoustic modes (translation - your mix will be bass heavy), too close to a reflecting surface that is not a wall - you can comb filter your mix very easily and it messes with your ability to properly eq mids. Comb filtering results when there is basically a strong time delay of a signal arriving at your ears at the same time as the direct signal, causing constructive and destructive interference based on the time difference of the reflection/direct relationship. One source of this is mixing with monitors place directly on the meter bridge of a large mixing desk. Yes, you will see SOME pros put their Yamaha NS-10 monitors on the bridge. But they are getting strong reflections off the mix desk surface. In your posts from maybe a year ago, I seem to recall your monitors being quite close to your angled ceiling in your room. It was a recipe for comb filtering at your mix location.

You can't fix all of this. Period. But you can work with reference recordings to get an idea how they sound on all the different systems you have at your disposal.

You can fix some of it. It's worth the effort to do so to eliminate as much of the distracting anomalies as possible.

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#175629 - 10/09/12 11:03 AM [RealBand] Re: Making "the last mix" [Re: rockstar_not]
eddie1261 Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4035
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Scott, at some point tonight I am going to get some photos of my room and email you a link to them. I'd be grateful for your suggestions. They obviously don't have to be where they are now, but since I have never had them anywhere else I don't know the difference. Anybody else who would like to see the studio please let me know and I will PM you here with the link.

What I found interesting/astounding was that when my back is to the speakers, so my chair is spun around 180, it sounds different than when I am facing the speakers.

And I use powered Wharfedale monitors, 100w per side.
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#175630 - 10/09/12 01:03 PM [RealBand] Re: Making "the last mix" [Re: eddie1261]
oublaj Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 27
Loc: Glens Falls, NY
First, I have read a lot of books and articles on mixing. One thing I do is have a big pile of cd's and I burn one and go to my car and listen. Then I go to my main stereo and listen. Then I go to my second stereo and listen. I also will strem it via iTunes through my house and iPod. I take notes and tweak as best I can. It drives my wife crazy by the way.

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#175631 - 10/09/12 02:22 PM [RealBand] Re: Making "the last mix" [Re: eddie1261]
rockstar_not Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7256
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Quote:



What I found interesting/astounding was that when my back is to the speakers, so my chair is spun around 180, it sounds different than when I am facing the speakers.






This is due to the fact that your pinnae (your outer ears - Mickey Mouse's were big circles) have an intentional acoustic shadowing effect that will change the amount of high frequency that you can hear relative to low frequencies. This is one of the mechanisms/responses by which we are able to localize sound. This is not due to room acoustics - it's due to the acoustics of your ear shape and relationship to direct sound. You should note a decrease in perceived mid-high frequency content in the 'reverse' position. This is part of what tells your brain the sound is coming from behind you - this and the very small inter-aural time delays that occur as you rotate your head away from the source.

Look up Head-Related Transfer Function or HRTF for short, to see how your physical head and ear shape and whatnot 'EQ' sounds. It's a fascinating topic. There are binaural recording dummies (of which I have used Brüel & Kjær, Head Acoustics extensively, and to some extent GRAS and Neumann) which try to use generalized HRTFs to help record sound more in the way that we hear sound.

Regarding your room - from what I recall in previous photos, you had your monitors tucked right up against the angled ceiling of the room. This WILL cause comb filtering at your listening/monitoring location. To what extent remains a bit of a challenge - but one should avoid any hard reflecting surfaces within a few feet of your monitors - particularly the mid and high frequency driver locations for your monitors. Auralex recommends putting absorptive material (depth is dependent on wavelength) on surfaces where if you mounted a mirror, you can look from your listening location to the mirror and see the monitors in the mirror. This is simply ray-tracing acoustics at play. If the room is big enough, the comb filtering effect from walls dissipates as the reflected energy is much much lower than the direct energy from the speakers. However, the photo I recall from your room was that the monitors were nearly touching the angled ceiling. The reflected energy will be strong enough to constructively and destructively interfere (enhance and reduce) certain frequencies at your listening location.

-Scott

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#175632 - 10/09/12 02:29 PM [RealBand] Re: Making "the last mix" [Re: oublaj]
silvertones Offline
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Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 7174
There are 2 ingredients that no one has mentioned & they are the most important. You can have the best gear, the best room etc.,etc.If you don't have these 2 items you'll never get there.
1. Musical talent
2. engineering talent.
It's not enough to say "put a CD on and make yours sound like that"
You could put a painting of the Mona Lisa in front of me and I could try and replicate it until I die and it would still look like a 3 year old did it.
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#175633 - 10/09/12 02:46 PM [RealBand] Re: Making "the last mix" [Re: rockstar_not]
rockstar_not Offline
Veteran

Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7256
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
BTW - for anyone interested in purchasing foam based acoustic treatment, there is a Michigan based company that sells for WAY less than Auralex or Primacoustic or the other companies that do foam based acoustic treatment that advertise in magazines and online.

http://www.foambymail.com/blog/refine-a-rooms-sound-with-custom-acoustical-sound-treatment/

There is a direct relationship between the wavelengths absorbed by foam wedge type treatment and the depth of the foam wedges. Don't go too shallow. Deeper wedges will absorb down to lower frequencies. Yes, deeper wedges are always more expensive.

-Scott

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#175634 - 10/10/12 03:45 AM [RealBand] Re: Making "the last mix" [Re: eddie1261]
jcspro40 Offline
Expert

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 824
Loc: Ohio-USA
Quote:

What I found interesting/astounding was that when my back is to the speakers, so my chair is spun around 180, it sounds different than when I am facing the speakers.




Same thing I said 16 posts back....
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#175635 - 10/10/12 09:42 AM [RealBand] Re: Making "the last mix" [Re: jcspro40]
eddie1261 Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4035
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Quote:

Same thing I said 16 posts back....




That must be where I heard it then.....
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#175636 - 10/10/12 01:42 PM [RealBand] Re: Making "the last mix" [Re: Kemmrich]
CountryTrash Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 12/16/09
Posts: 373
Loc: Benoni, South Africa
I agree with the monitors. I used PC speakers before and my recordings sucked.

When i bought my Rhode NT2A mic I also,splurged on M-audio BX5 monitors. (No female supervision present of course)

When i started my new mixes i was shocked at the difference. Sounds as if i paid to have my songs mixed. At least that what the family also thought compared to my previous (now) junk.
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I used to care, but things have changed (Bob Dylan)

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#175637 - 10/10/12 08:17 PM [RealBand] Re: Making "the last mix" [Re: Kemmrich]
jcspro40 Offline
Expert

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 824
Loc: Ohio-USA
Quote:

You will see that the EQ curve is not "flat".




True, but it is something to aim for across all the tracks, THEN you can start trying to tweak them into a coherent collection. You have to have a unified starting point when working this type of stuff...well, anyhoo, it works for me when I get old cassettes & reel-to-reels in.


Quote:

Quote:

Same thing I said 16 posts back....




That must be where I heard it then.....








My AAMS suggestion is just a quick fix for the old material, of course it is better to "do it right" from the start, but hey, we all can not have perfect rooms or speakers.

I like to eat & be bill free, so until my next "royalty check" I just hang some moving blankets L-C-R to tame the reflections some, triple check bass thru 2 sets of headphones & boom boxes, and call it a day..
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#175638 - 10/10/12 08:29 PM [RealBand] Re: Making "the last mix" [Re: rockstar_not]
toucher Offline
Expert

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 1069
Loc: Arizona
Eddie,

One thing i have noticed over the years is that no matter how good your system is, it (the final sound) often comes down to a few factors:

1. How good is your own hearing over the entire spectrum.

2. As note, the mix sounds different on your powered monitors than on certain headphones. Some phones are prone to be very bass heavy to begin with, while others can be downright tinny.

3. Your listener may hear something totally different than you do on the same system. Very few people have perfect hearing in all freqs, and I would guess even fewer still have great pitch.

4. Some people don't "care" what it sounds like as long as there is a good beat.

5. Play your favorite track thru a boom box and you'll get one sound, thru a computer speaker system (also known to have bass tendancies), you'll get still another. Play it thru a high end audiophile system flat you'll get another, you get the idea.

Its a combination of all the posts above, I'm not sure if there is a perfect mix, if there was someone would be selling software for it a making millions.

Just my opinion.

Rob
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Dang....This is addicting.

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#175639 - 10/10/12 11:14 PM [RealBand] Re: Making "the last mix" [Re: toucher]
jcspro40 Offline
Expert

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 824
Loc: Ohio-USA
And just to show a couple of quick examples of AAMS, here are 2 clips from a track that is used in a course I have. I did not track this.

All tracks are 24/44.1 .wav, rendered down to 16/44.1 .wav. These examples were mixed down in about an hour using Reaper 4.26 & only it's native effects. Mastering was done in the AAMS system using the RockRMS Reference file.

The files were then edited together in Reaper.

Then uploaded at 16/44.1 to Soundcloud.


1. The Raw Tracks, 1st half just balanced, 2nd half Mastered

2. The 1st half tweaked with EQ, Comp, and Gating, 2nd half Mastered



**WARNING!!!!!**

THE 2ND HALF OF EACH TRACK IS MUCH LOUDER THAN THE 1ST HALF!!

PLEASE WATCH THE VOLUME JUMP & PROTECT YOUR EARS!!!!

**WARNING!!!!!**



You might like the sound, you might not. All I can say is that I have never had a compliant yet from a client.
_________________________
Custom Core2Quad 3.2Ghz, 8gb memory, 1gb nVidia dual monitor card, 1tb OS HDD, 2 2gb Internal HDD, 8tb External HDD, dual LG 27" Monitors, Win7 x64 Ultimate, BiaB/RB 2017, Reaper 4.75, Mixbus 32C, IK Multimedia / iZotope / Plug & Mix VST-VSTi Collections

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#175640 - 10/11/12 11:25 AM [RealBand] Re: Making "the last mix" [Re: jcspro40]
jazzmammal Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6412
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Eddie all I can tell you is to think about what courses you took and what certs you have in order to be considered an IT pro. When you respond to posts here from people having computer problems, you say things like I've been doing this for 20 years and I'm telling you it's this or you have to do that. You know that in order to explain it in detail would take you over an hour and require you to write a couple pages of very technical stuff that you know the person wouldn't understand anyway.

Same thing here. There's a whole tech language to this you know nothing about.

You're asking and making comments about something that requires full college courses and years of experience to learn. Check this out:

http://www.studio82a.com/Ohio.htm

You really want to learn this stuff and have an intelligent conversation with someone like Harvey, ROG, Scott or Mac? Sign up with one of these schools and come back in a few years.

Don't have time for that? Then just do what these guys tell you to do. Just like if I happened to develop serious PC problems and asked you for help. I trust your knowledge in that area so I would have to listen and do. That's it.

Bob
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#175641 - 10/11/12 12:06 PM [RealBand] Re: Making "the last mix" [Re: jazzmammal]
eddie1261 Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4035
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
You know Bob, that's a really good plan. I didn't even know CCC had that program! And when I looked at the link, I know 3 of the people on faculty. That downtown campus is a bit of a drive, but I would like to do something like that. I actually went to CCC for the computer degree. WAY back when....
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PG Music News
Beginners Help - Muting the Melody Notation

Visit our Beginners Forum, and you'll notice our amazing Forum Community helping out new program users!

Like this recent post regarding Muting the Melody Notation: http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=458716 - Forum user Matt Finley did a great job of answering the new program user!

Our Beginners Forum really is a great resource for new program users!

Q: When I have entered chords and notation for a song, is it possible to mute the notation and just have the chords playing? This would be helpful for when I just want the chord backing track but want to read the notation.

A: There are several ways to do this. The easiest is probably to use the Mixer window and change the volume slider to zero for the Melody track. Or, hit the Mute icon on the Mixer for the Melody Track.

Another way, with more control rather than all or nothing, is to press F5 at the measure where you want to mute, and select mute or change the volume to zero. Later, press F5 and select Return to Normal, or change the volume back.

Introducing... RealTracks Artists David Wise & Shelly Justice!

For the first time ever Band-in-a-Box® can generate backing vocals with some amazing "oohs" and "aahs" vocal arrangements with RealTrack Set 278: Shiny Vocals Oohs and Aahs! Add male or female parts by renowned Nashville vocalists David Wise and Shelly Justice, and you'll LOVE the results!

David and Shelly have recorded with many different artists, including CeCe Winans, Dolly Parton, Don Henley, Donnie McClurkin, Jeremy Camp, Lady Antebellum, OneRepublic, Steve Green, and more!

RealTrack Set 278: Shiny Vocals Oohs and Aahs includes a three-part, six-voice arrangement – which you can use all together in your song or individually for more delicate textures! Listen to the demos for RealTracks Set 278 here.

Purchase RealTrack Set 278: Shiny Vocals Oohs and Aahs for just $29 here. It's also included in the Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows PlusPAK, UltraPAK, and Audiophile Edition.

Learn more about Dave & Shelly when you visit their RealTracks Artist Bio page:
David Wise: http://www.pgmusic.com/realtracks.artists.php?a=150
Shelly Justice: http://www.pgmusic.com/realtracks.artists.php?a=151

#TechTipTuesday - Band-in-a-Box® Patch Updates

If you're ever experiencing an issue with your Band-in-a-Box program, make sure you have the most recent patch update for your version - this can be done at http://www.pgmusic.com/support.updates.win.htm.

Patch updates are released frequently, and are created by our development team to fix any reported bugs, tweak existing features within the program, update demos and other files as needed, and more!

To find out which version of the program you have, visit Help | About Band-in-a-Box within the program. You will see the full version number listing as:
Band-in-a-Box® for Windows
Version 2018 (512)

The number in parentheses is the build number. As you can see, my Band-in-a-Box is up to date and will continue to stay that way because I've selected "Automatically check for updates every 7 days" within the Help | Check for Updates.... option (you can set the number of days to a different number). This window will also look to see if you're version is up to date, so you don't technically have to visit http://www.pgmusic.com/support.updates.win.htm if you didn't want to!

Once you've installed your patch update (make sure the program is closed when you're doing this), give it another try - if you are still experiencing the same issue you can report it by contacting us directly, or you can post your result to the Forum thread that also announces the patch update, like our recent Band-in-a-Box 2018 Build 512 Update (Feb 15) post.

YouTube Find - How To Play SLOW A7 BLUES Guitar Solo With 4 NOTES

Check out one of EricBlackmonGuitar's latest videos, How To Play SLOW A7 BLUES Guitar Solo With 4 NOTES and you'll hear a great Band-in-a-Box backing track!

http://www.pgmusic.com/?vid=blJPIX-9YbE

...and you'll also learn how to play blues with just a few notes!

A Little Bit Of Me Music Video!

A great music video created by forum user Floyd Jane! https://youtu.be/qPrejgnwb4M?t=3600

This song was featured in a detailed "The Birth of a Song" video created by Floyd Jane - watch the complete video here:
http://www.pgmusic.com/?vid=qPrejgnwb4M

RealBand 2018 Build 5 Update Available!

RealBand 2018 customers can download the latest free patch update here: http://www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#2018_5

Summary of Changes for Build 5
Added: When generating the input file for saving as an MGU/SGU SongMode128= is saved to the input file.
Added: Localization support for 2018.
Added: flyby hints to new dialogs.
Fixed: Save As with a filename greater than 128 chars could cause an error 123 plus access violation.
Fixed: Rebooting RealBand after a filename with 128 chars was saved could cause an access violation.
Fixed: Pressing the Change button in the Event List Window could result in an access violation if an event was not a Note event.
Fixed: When running in Win 10, and using BBW or PT to generate audio harmonies, an error would occur saying that you need BB 2011 or PT 12 to generate audio harmonies.
Fixed: Midi Thru Method was not being saved to the .INI file. It always reverting to Track-Specific when booting up RealBand, even if the user manually changed the setting to Global in the Midi Thru Settings dialog.
Fixed: Delete All Notes on This Peg menu item in notation window right-click menu was missing.
Fixed: Potential crash on exit (having to do with the DLL attempting to free up a dynamic array that was passed to it).

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 Build 512 Update Available!

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows customers can download the latest free patch update here: www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#512

Summary of changes for Build 512 since 510 (Feb 15 2018):
Fixed: "Load SoundTrack Song" and "Load song with RealDrums Audio" buttons in the Sound Track dialog were not working.
Fixed: After returning Band-in-a-Box to factory settings the File Open dialog would default to the bb\Data\Lib directory.
Fixed: Choosing a custom chord sheet font would ignore any color choice made in the font selection dialog.
Fixed: Drum names were sometimes truncated in the RealDrums MultiDrums and Quicklist dialogs.
Fixed: Exporting a MIDI file might cause the error, "MIDIConv.exe no found".
Fixed: Mixer changes were not undoable, and would not cause user to be prompted to save their song when exiting.
Fixed: Static in RT2438 and other various RealTracks fixes.
Fixed: StylePicker database various updates. Some styles were displaying the wrong feel (swing/even) in notation. A few styles incorrectly showed missing Drums.
Fixed: The audio latency setting would increase every time leaving the Windows Audio Devices dialog.
Fixed: The Download Manager folder name defaulted to 2016 instead of 2018.
Updated: Help file.

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