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#187751 - 01/06/13 02:00 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Don Gaynor]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
What makes ya think that Google search is honest or trustworthy?

One can simply pay them to come up first on a search...

But its not just Google, per se:

Online results in general have often been skewed by nefarious use of scripting and robots, too.



--Mac
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#187752 - 01/06/13 02:33 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: rockstar_not]
jcspro40 Offline
Expert

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 832
Loc: Ohio-USA
Quote:

It would be a boring world if market research was done only by listening to and paying attention to current customers.




I disagree. When I go looking I want to hear how the software/product/ etc is working now, in today's world, and not how it worked "back then"...

Just sayin'
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#187753 - 01/06/13 05:03 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Mac]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7525
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

What makes ya think that Google search is honest or trustworthy?

One can simply pay them to come up first on a search...

But its not just Google, per se:

Online results in general have often been skewed by nefarious use of scripting and robots, too.


--Mac



good point... I DON'T think its completely trustworthy. But I also don't think its completely UN-trustworthy. IMO, it's at least as irrational to completely disregard data as it is to completely trust it. Those rankings look about right to me.



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#187754 - 01/06/13 06:03 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Pat Marr]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2198
another issue with this "poll" is that they chose what software products to include in their analysis rather than discovering all available products and then ranking them. so, if they left out a product, either inadvertently or intentionally, their chart might be a whole lot less useful. to me for example the fact that Reaper was excluded is an issue. because Reaper is so much less expensive than Pro Tools and because they essentially deliver a fully functional trial that never expires it is difficult to estimate how popular Reaper is but many folks have estimated it is now #2 behind Pro Tools.

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#187755 - 01/06/13 07:16 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Pat Marr]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Quote:

...MO, it's at least as irrational to completely disregard data as it is to completely trust it. Those rankings look about right to me.







What happens in a court of law if and when a defendant or witness is found to be telling one lie?

All testimony from that person is considered to be nonvalid.

As to whether data "looks right" to somebody, well, that is hardly the scientific method either, Al Gore the ManBearPig excepted.


--Mac
_________________________
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You must be Audiominds.
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#187756 - 01/06/13 07:25 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Mac]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2198
Quote:

Quote:

...MO, it's at least as irrational to completely disregard data as it is to completely trust it. Those rankings look about right to me.







What happens in a court of law if and when a defendant or witness is found to be telling one lie?

All testimony from that person is considered to be nonvalid.

As to whether data "looks right" to somebody, well, that is hardly the scientific method either, Al Gore the ManBearPig excepted.


--Mac




"I'm super serial!"

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#187757 - 01/06/13 10:16 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Mac]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3355
Loc: WV, USA
Quote:

What happens in a court of law if and when a defendant or witness is found to be telling one lie?

All testimony from that person is considered to be nonvalid.




While that may be true in a court of law, applying that analogy to almost ANY other principle or circumstance would not only be riddled with fallacy, … it would in some cases be downright dangerous.

Imagine if we applied that analogy all the way from a simple white lie, …(like the answer to the question of “does this dress make my butt look big?”), all the way to up to governments and religion of any faith.

Imagine if we applied that principle to the sources of all simple, dominatorial and extravagant lies. All personal communications, all governments and all religion would be invalid, … or as you said, ...“nonvalid”.

Talk about opening a can of worms! Hehe.
_________________________
Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#187758 - 01/06/13 11:21 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Don Gaynor Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/10/03
Posts: 7902
Loc: Oklahoma, USA
Bobert, Amico, welcome back from retirement. You have been missed by at least one flatulent old Oyrishman. I honestly expected you to pop out of your gopher hole when I misspelled Bill Munroe and suffered brain fade while naming flat-pickers. I know that you can name dozens of Bluegrassers that I missed. Should I say: "Welcome back?", or are you just here until the cherry harvest?

I assume that you have heard that Mike Auldridge died December 29th? A long bout with prostate cancer.

I tried sending my condolences to his wife, Elise, but his email address is already closed. Mike also has two daughters, Michelle and Loren. Can't find them either.

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#187759 - 01/06/13 11:28 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Mac]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7525
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

As to whether data "looks right" to somebody, well, that is hardly the scientific method either, Al Gore the ManBearPig excepted.


--Mac




Ok... you got me on that one....
I can't trump the ManBearPig card, so I'm gonna have to surrender now



But, FWIW, Peter Gannon presented the data. You'll have to set ManbearPig loose on him.

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#187760 - 01/06/13 11:33 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Don Gaynor]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3355
Loc: WV, USA
Don,

Quote:

I assume that you have heard that Mike Auldridge died December 29th?




I hadn’t heard that Don. My condolences to you as Mike’s friend and to his family.

The music world has lost a very talented musician who not only played from the heart, but helped push his chosen instrument into national prominence.

I never had the pleasure of meeting him, but I’ve watched and listened to him play live several times.

He will be missed.
_________________________
Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#187761 - 01/07/13 12:07 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Mac]
John Conley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 09/28/03
Posts: 8333
Loc: London, Ontario, Canada
I just couldn't sleep so I was reading.

1. Scot says he has no way of getting in touch with who? Wow, I used google, the website here and came up with lots of ways.

2. Google just was exonerated of putting it's own interests first in searches. They now have the right to shove their own sites up to the top, and drop the rest down.

So it's on to getting more companies.

I note that if I google, 'ear mites dog'.

I get answer dot calm and the rest of them first. The grab all the responses to the question and shove them at you. Nice. But I hate that.

Things must be taken with a grain of salt, or a block like the cows lick.

And someone who plays and instrument but does not have Band in a box is broke. Golly, that's the first thing you need, it keeps you motivated, playing and practicing, and improving. There are too many reasons to buy it and own it.

I understand if you don't have dime one. But I have the ,3, 5, 7, 9 and 11.
Don't ask.

_________________________
John Conley
Musica est vita

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#187762 - 01/07/13 10:37 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: John Conley]
Robh Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/08/06
Posts: 4166
Loc: California
Me personally i lioke the fact that PG music is not aimed at high schoolers and dubsteppers. I spent a ton of time early on in theis hobby over at Acidplanet.com it was unrulely, and crazy there. Tons of fighting, and fussing. Bad manners and the lot. A pile of good music stuffed in the cracks around a bigger pile pf ... er well let's just say Stuff!

I do agree that PG needs to address the VSTi timing issue, and i have spoken out on that one, also the automation needs updating. If those two issues were dealt with to give us a basic automation node based feature, and the timing issue was addressed so programs like Jamstix could sync i do not think i would even need to load another DAW. Actually i have not record a single track in another DAW in months. Still i look forward to those two things being brought to fruition.

As far as Scott not using the program, i also hung around cakewalk long after i stopped really using the program, mostly due to friendships, and familiarity. I also hoped some really good things might happen with the first music software i ever owned. I still pop in once and again to say howdy over there.

Peter i do commend you for even wieghing in here on this. I am sure you read a lot of slack on these boards, and sometimes want to smack us in the head, but are mostly very restrained i might say.

Having said that, I am sure you can understand Scott's point a bit as well. there are in his opinion a couple deal breakers in the process for him as least.

Maybe you could sometime, at least address why these issues continue to be ignored, and please know that if that whatever the reason, most of us do appreciate the direction the system is going, and understand priorities in business. It is just that the VSTi timing and automation have been on the customers list for a looooong time now. So many people clamor for a GUI upgrade, but in reality it works great even with a "dated" look, but these two issues would bring in a few more customers, and really help the ones you have.
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#187763 - 01/08/13 03:39 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Robh]
jazzmammal Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6531
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Well, here's today's LA Times:

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/mus...gulars-20130107,0,701810.story

Appearing in Vegas: "Zedd, Def Leppard, Bassnectar, Skrillex, Diplo, Nero, AVICII, David Guetta, will.i.am, Afrojack, Rusko and Madeon, among dozens of others."

Any who are familiar with these artists, raise their hands.

When they're headlining in Vegas, that's as mainstream as you get. Remember when Elvis settled down at the Hilton for 7 years and how that was the beginning of the end of the big band style orchestras there? I really hate to say it but our stuff including "hip" jazz fusion is basically dead as far as the big picture goes. We're on the periphery looking in.

Bob
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Biab/RB latest build, Win 10 64 bit, Intel 4770, 256 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA1XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

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#187764 - 01/08/13 06:52 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: jazzmammal]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7525
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

When they're headlining in Vegas, that's as mainstream as you get. Remember when Elvis settled down at the Hilton for 7 years and how that was the beginning of the end of the big band style orchestras there? I really hate to say it but our stuff including "hip" jazz fusion is basically dead as far as the big picture goes. We're on the periphery looking in.




If we only look at pop music, that's true, Bob

But some of the most successful businesses are those that focus on niche markets, because they are often the only presence in that market. People who focus on whatever is mainstream end up dividing the pie among all the contenders for that market.

That's part of what makes this niche interesting. The baby boomers are still one of the largest economic special interest groups of all time, especially as we approach retirement and have time and disposable income on our hands. Whether or not it's their target I can't say, but PGMusic's products have strong appeal in that market, while everybody else is dividing the pie in the "contemporary" music arena.

But, what is contemporary? A lot of Christian and country music sells quite well in todays marketplace, and PGMusic products are a better match for those genres than anything else.

And you COULD make a hip-hop, TECHNO or TRANCE song in BIAB, but I'd hate to have to make a country song in FLStudio.

Also, among the products that appeal strongly to young 'uns, I wonder how much product they actually SELL, as opposed to how much gets bit-streamed. I would guess that a high percentage of PGMusic's users actually paid for the product, whereas I would bet that A lot of the online activity for those other products is stirred by people who didn't pay for the product

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#187765 - 01/08/13 08:57 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Pat Marr]
floyd jane Offline
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Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 6069
Loc: Florida
Pat says>>> I'd hate to have to make a country song in FLStudio.

This has been an interesting thread. I think Pat answered the question right there...

I came (back) to Band-In-A-Box because I needed A BAND!!! I wanted REAL drums (not something going BSHSH..BSHSH.. over and over). I wanted someone playing piano. I wanted a fiddle. And a pedal steel!!!! Didn't even know I wanted a cello - but try to make me give THAT up now.

Teens and 20's, etc, "making music" today don't NEED a BAND. There is no longer a need (in that world) for musicians of any kind. They don't WANT it to sound real.

I, for one, hope that PGMusic NEVER, NEVER, EVER begins catering to that crowd.
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#187766 - 01/08/13 04:50 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Pat Marr]
jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6531
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
I completely agree Pat, just pointing out one possible answer to the original question in this thread.

I've been thinking of getting one of the better controllers and either upgrading my old Sonar or getting a new DAW that has better features than Real Band like remote transport control, automation, works with Jamstix and the like. I don't need it but it looks like fun. They all come with different software packages and I've been reading about that and looking at online video tutorials.

It's unbelievbly difficult to get anything from them because nothing is remotely related to our music. I have to watch the videos, listen to this total crap stuff and try to discern if all those controls, sliders, pads will actually relate to what I want to do. It's not easy believe me. I can't just turn the volume off because I need to listen to what the presenter is saying and all the background "music" makes my teeth ache. It's all about how the Akai pads are great for creating beatz just like their MC controllers so popular with hip hoppers, how these cool looking led sliders can trigger arps and envelopes and those things sound like absolute s***, how these Novation buttons can change scenes in Ableton and the examples sound like my cat in a blender, look at this hot sub bass beat cruncher plugin in Mixcraft and listen to all that cool wall thumping lo fi crap and hear the presenter say in a low throaty voice "Oh...yeah" and talk about how great it is and on and on. Nobody is demoing how to record and mix a basic band with horns and vocals for example. I've been on Live's forum and there are a few real musicians there who talk about how they use Abelton for that but I sure can't find any examples of it, it's all this other junk so I basically take it on faith, yeah these things will all work and I'll be on my own with whatever I decide to get.

Nobody is going after us boomers except for PG so that's their niche for now. But, in ten years...

Bob


Edited by jazzmammal (01/08/13 05:01 PM)
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#187767 - 01/08/13 06:12 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: jazzmammal]
Cerio Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 790
Loc: Spain
Sorry, but I see too many assumptions here...

There are actually a lot of young people interested in real music, and seriously studying their instruments. You only need to take a look on youtube to discover an impressive new generation of GREAT players on every genre you can imagine, including, of course, jazz music.

Then, regarding electronic (and "contemporary") music, well...there's bad electronic music and there's is very good and interesting electronic music around there, just like in any other genre. Miles Davis, for example, recorded "Doo-boop" (essentialy an hip hop album) when he was 65 and Herbie Hancock made the same on "Future2Future", a great electronic jazz album, when he was 61 years old. The attitude and the respect that these (among many others) great jazz musicians have always had towards new musical tendencies should be a lesson for all of us.

Having said that, I'm personally happy with the basic BIAB philosophy. The program is, by nature oriented to simulate live musicians on different styles, and this is, precisely, what makes of BIAB such an unique program on the market.

BUT, at the same time, I wouldn't like to see BIAB keeping "anchored" to a couple of main styles. IMO, the balance between jazz and country realstyles on one side and realtracks covering other genres is disproportionate. This is the main reason I haven't upgraded this year. While there are a couple of new (and very welcomed) styles and instruments offered, most of the new realtracks seems like new variants of styles and patterns already pretty well covered. I personally don't really need every conceivable country or bossa rhythm guitar pattern in realtrack format, but will be more than happy buying new sets covering classic disco music (think Nile Rodgers), funk music (think James Brown or The Crusaders), or any other set expanding the coverage of soul, reggae, afrocuban music (danzon, mambo, son...), brazilian music (samba-reggae, brazilian funk....) or any other genre you can imagine.

I don't know if the average BIAB user is over 60 or not, and in fact I think this is not the point. But I firmly believe that everyone seriously interested in studying his instrument in every style is a potential BIAB buyer. In this sense, for me it's clear that a wider stylistical coverage in future versions (and, yes, an aesthetic and functional redesign of the GUI) would attract new users. No doubt.

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#187768 - 01/08/13 06:17 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Cerio]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Cerio puts some truth on some word.


Plenty of young - and serious - musicians out there.


--Mac
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PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here

You must be Audiominds.
www.audiominds.com

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#187769 - 01/08/13 07:16 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Joe V]
Brallan Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/18/07
Posts: 385
Loc: Los Angeles, CA.
Maybe the basic explanation for the poll results is simply that all the young musicians are practicing, playing, partying, and making love, while all us old f*rts are wasting our final days hanging around this here forum.

Jes' Sayin' (Put yer own emoticon here)
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#187770 - 01/08/13 08:17 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Why not more 'regulars' that are in their teens, 20's, and 30's that actively participate in PG forums ? - or are there ? [Re: Brallan]
PeterGannon Offline
PG Music Staff

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 13456
<<< I personally don't really need every conceivable country or bossa rhythm guitar pattern in realtrack format

Fair enough, but with 1,100 RealTracks to date, we have lots more than country and bossa



<<< but will be more than happy buying new sets covering

<<< - classic disco music (think Nile Rodgers)

we don't have this, but it would be good to add

<<< - , funk music (think James Brown or The Crusaders)

We do have 4 RT sets of jazz funk (Jeff Lorber, Alex Al, etc.)
And more are planned.


>>> afrocuban music (danzon, mambo, son...)

We have Guajira, Bolero, SonMuntono. These are all RealTracks, done by Rebeca Mauleon (piano) and other great players.

>>> brazilian music (samba-reggae, brazilian funk....)

Good ideas.
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Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.

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