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In the posts of several forum members, you mention that you have Helicon vocal processors. To drive my VoiceLive Touch, when using RB, I typically take a piano track and duplicate it. I then mute the sound, strip the controllers and send that to my VoiceLive Touch via a midi out from my MOTU midi interface.
Now that I'm getting into BIAB, thanks to Mr Warren's ReDirect, I'm wondering how to drive the Touch from BIAB. Unlike RB, you only have limited number of tracks in BIAB: Bass, Piano, Melody, Thru, Strings, Guitar and Solo. To drive the Touch, I'd need one of these that has chords or melody right? But then if that track is being used, I'd lose that track from my mixif I direct it to the vocal processor.
So how is it that you folks are driving your vocal processors in BIAB? Is there a way to duplicate a track in BIAB and, using the ReDirect, send that to the vocal processor?
Jeff
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2024, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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BB has a command in the PREFS to "Send Chords" - that was placed there precisely for the reason of sending MIDI to harmonizer machines.
--Mac
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Great thanks Mac...going to check it out right now!
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2024, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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You have a couple of options.
First, as Mac indicated, BiaB can send chords to a vocal processor. However, that only works if the 'Use DXi/VST' option is not checked. Under that scenario all your midi would need to go to your device chain. No redirector required.
Second, you can use my VSTi on a track and send the midi from that track to your processor. A melody track might be good here if you want note based control. If you want chord based control you'd need a track that plays chords exclusively. A piano track for example.
You are partially correct about whether you could also hear this track having my VSTi installed. You couldn't hear anything if you have no hardware synth in the chain. However, if you do have a hardware synth in the chain there should be no reason you can't hear it as well.
Finally, you could duplicate a track if you have one available. If not you'd be out of luck.
Hope this helps a bit.
BiaB 2013 b366, RB 2013 b4, WinXP Pro SP3, Toshiba M70, 1.8GHz 2GB RAM 100GB HD. Focusrite Saffire 6 USB, Ketron SD2. BiaB Wiki
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Jeff,
if you get that to work, please contact me. I still have had no luck with the TCHelicon receiving chords in a way that changes the chord shown in the Voiceworks' viewer.
The MIDI activity light flashes, and the MIDI monitor tells me that the notes are being sent, but the chords don't change in the voiceworks.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Pat, the chord data is probably being sent on a different channel than the Voiceworks is set to receive it on. That can be changed via the Voiceworks or inside BB, but I think it is likely easier and better to do it on the Voiceworks after you find out which channel is being sent from BB. Prefs Channels may help.
The MIDI indicator will blink if there is any MIDI data detected on any one of the 16 MIDI channels, but obviously cannot differentiate which of the channels the data is on, being only one blinking LED.
--Mac
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Quote:
Pat, the chord data is probably being sent on a different channel than the Voiceworks is set to receive it on. That can be changed via the Voiceworks or inside BB, but I think it is likely easier and better to do it on the Voiceworks after you find out which channel is being sent from BB. Prefs Channels may help.
The MIDI indicator will blink if there is any MIDI data detected on any one of the 16 MIDI channels, but obviously cannot differentiate which of the channels the data is on, being only one blinking LED.
--Mac
I have changed the Voiceworks' receiving channel to all 16 possibilities, double checked to make sure the redirect program was set to the same channel etc etc, over and over.
The MIDI monitor that comes with BIAB shows a clear record that the MIDI data is going to the right channel. Furthermore, the patch change commands are getting through and correctly changing patches (which wouldn't happen if I didn't have the receiving channel set correctly.)
I'm starting to think it has something to do with multiple ports. Next time I have free time, I'll remove all but one port from the chain and see if that makes a difference.
(I haven't tried the most recent version yet... maybe that will get me up and running)
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Quote:
(I haven't tried the most recent version yet... maybe that will get me up and running)
Oh my. Pat, Pat, Pat, that's working against yourself.
--Mac
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I was able to get this to work last night, let me spend a few more hours with it again today to verify. Keep in mind, that I am using a an 8 port midi interface to do this so YMMV.
1. My Midi is setup as follows: Port 1 used for the audi interface exclusively. Port 2 used for the DX7 II with E! Port 3 used for the Fantom XR. Port 4 used for the Motf XS Port 8 used for the VoiceLive Touch. Be sure that all of your gear is turned on before starting BIAB.
2. In the BIAB Perfences, I set the "Output Channels" to "Output Chords" and set the midi channel to 1, the same as the VoiceLive Touch is set to receive on.
3. I've checked the "Use DXi/XST", in the "Midi/Audio Drivers" pull-down as well as the ""Route Midi trough to Midi Driver"
4. then in the VSTi button pull-down, using Paul's ReDirector, I've set the "Default Synth" to my Motif rack with "Forced Chaneel set to None". i.e all midi is going to the Motif. NOTE: here's for me is the break-through: Rather than selecting the the Yamaha Motif from the ReDirector pull-down , I select the port that the Motif is on. In other words, I select Port 4 and not the Yamaha Motif.
5. So far then, I have all the midi tracks going to the Motif through Port 4
6. Next, I click on the "Thru" button in the VSTi pull-down and using the ReDirector assign that to Port 8 (the VoiceLive Touch). This send the chord data selected in #1 above to the VoiceLive Touch. This is verified by seeing the midi light flash on the VoiceLive Touch when playing a song. The odd thing though is that it doesn't flash on every Touch preset...just some of them.
So still have some work to do on this: 1. why doesn't the Touch show midi on every preset, even though I can see midi data going by using the midi data indicator in BIAB; 2. why can't I see midi data indication on the Redirector even though the Port shows activity.
I'll work on it more later today...but that's where I stand now..........
Jeff
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2024, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Ok, I think I've figured this out and it's a brain twister of the first magnitude.
First, if you DO NOT have the 'Use DXi/VST Synth' box checked your chord data will be sent to the selected midi port (in Midi Opt) on the channel you indicate in 'Prefs|OutputCh'. No mystery here and there's no need for my midi redirector. All you need do is make sure your VoiceWorks is receiving on the channel you set in OutputCh.
If you DO have the 'Use DXi/VST Synth' box checked things are a lot more complicated . The bad news is you will need one empty track. The good news is it can be your Thru track if no others are available and assuming you don't want to use it for a controller.
First make sure the midi output port is set to 'No Midi/Sound Output' so no ports are held open. Make sure you have an appropriate default synth selected (at this point don't use my redirector in the default slot).
Next, you must decide which empty track you are going to use and check the 'Prefs|Channels' dialog to see which channel it uses. As an example I have the Thru track set to channel 5. Now go to 'Prefs|OutpuCh' and set the chord output to channel 5.
Now, in the Synth Dialog, add my redirector to the Thru track and set the midi port to the one your hardware is connected to. The Status LED should light up. Now set the 'Forced Midi Channel' to 9. Now your chord data should go to the Thru track on ch 5 where it will be forced to Ch 9 and go to your VoiceWorks via the redirector. It does with mine and I was able to verify this with midi yoke/midi ox monitoring BiaB output.
If you want to use a blank track other than the Thru track use the same procedure but set OutputCh to the channel of the alternate track.
BiaB 2013 b366, RB 2013 b4, WinXP Pro SP3, Toshiba M70, 1.8GHz 2GB RAM 100GB HD. Focusrite Saffire 6 USB, Ketron SD2. BiaB Wiki
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I just finished testing this final scenario. Supposing you want to send most of your midi data to a hardware synth and just one or two tracks to a software synth. And you want you chord output to go to your VoiceWorks.
First set the Midi Output port to NONE in midi Opt and make sure 'Use DXi.VST' is checked. Then put my redirector on the default synth slot. Set the output port to the one your hardware is connected to. You will need a hardware synth in the chain along with your Voiceworks if you want to hear the midi output.
Next, put a soft synth on the tracks you want to use.
Finally, make sure OutputCh is set to 9 (or whatever channel your VoiceWorks receives on). You will also need to make sure none of your other channels is set to the same number.
Now click play and you should be set. Note however that I had a lot of latency using this setup as the hardware synths are much faster than the software synths. I wouldn't reccomend this unless your entire system is super fast.
BiaB 2013 b366, RB 2013 b4, WinXP Pro SP3, Toshiba M70, 1.8GHz 2GB RAM 100GB HD. Focusrite Saffire 6 USB, Ketron SD2. BiaB Wiki
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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Yes, I can verify that Paul's method above also works on my system using multiple hard synths and select VSTi's at the same time in the same song. I am now showing midi data being received on all presets in the VoiceLive Touch. A point that I first missed was setting the output channel in both Opt/Preferences/Channels as well as setting the same channel in Opt/Preferences/Output Channel.
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2024, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Do have another question. When setting up the Ouput Channel to use chords, is it better to set the chord types up to Triads&7th's or Complex Chords?
Jeff
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2024, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Triads/7ths for most work. Save the complex chords for the jazz, like think Manhattan Transfer.
Of course, I encourage experimentation here, might sound good to have complex harmonies in a rock song...
--Mac
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If you are using complex chords, assuming that these would be chords with extensions beyond the first octave, would you then also have to adjust the midi note number limits in the Output channel screen? What note range would you recommend to be used in that case?
Jeff
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2024, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Jeff, I think that may depend upon the particular machine.
What I would do in that situation is experiment. Shouldn't take too long to figure out what sounds best in a particular situation.
And the machine itself may have some built in "intelligent" algorithms regarding that note choice as well.
For example, there may be other control parameters besides just the chord type that the machine incorporates, such as "one up and one down" harmony, or "two down" etc. -- and that would limit the number of voices available right there.
The way to understand and be able to use ANY piece of equipment, hardware or software, is to spend some time experimenting, going through the "shakedown" runs and finding out not only what can or cannot be done, but getting that all-important "feel" for the machine. To me, that is part of the fun of these things.
--Mac
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Paul, apparently my problems are not related to your plug at all. I can't get it to change chords even from RB where it has always worked in the past. Time to start swapping cables and maybe try the other voiceworks in hopes of isolating the core problem.
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Have used the T C Helicon Voice Works for years and have taken up the "misunderstandings" between BB and VW, allthough both campanies claim they follow international MIDI protocols. In many instances (but not all the time) a Cmaj7 becomes an Em7, or an C6 becomes an Am7. Sofar this bug has not been taken out.
Any other users with the same problem?
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Hi tonnie,
Misidentified chords like the ones you cite are often a case of how a particular algorithm is invoked.
Some programs look at the lowest note of the chord and call that the Root. This is actually a correct way to do it as the Music Theory supports that.
However, an inversion of the basic triad will have either the 3rd or the 5th on the bottom of the note stack.
Therefore your example of a Cmaj7 being misidentified as an Em7 likely means that the inversion of the Cmaj7 sent to the thing has the E note on the bottom. At least it doesn't identify it as an Em#5.
As far as the harmony goes, your two given examples would still at least contain the right harmony notes to fit the actual chords, though. Singers singing the Em7 would be singing the Cmaj9 without the root. May or may not be what you desire to hear, though, that added 9th...
--Mac
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Mac, I do have another question then based on your comments to Tonnie. If you select "Output Chords" in the OutPut Channel pull-down in BIAB; doesn't BIAB always output those chords in root position? I guess my understanding was that even if an inversion is played, the output from BIAB would be in root position. Is this not the case?
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2024, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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