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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joined: Feb 2006
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Hi all,
I'm glad to see the post on modal playing that has clarified some questions by one of our members.
Now, I've been reading about the modes for years, I just can't 'hear' them yet, nor apply them well in real time - which I am currently working on.
For all these years, the modes was one of those approaches to soloing that I knew of, but I didn't know how to apply - one of the things "you know you don't know".
Now I'm looking to learn what the other approaches are called in soloing, in addition to the 'modes' - looking to learn what "I don't know that I don't know".
Can anyone help out with some key words and names of soloing approaches - beginning with those they find most practical, of which I can read about on the internet or in books by searching the right phrases ? A short explanation would also be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Joe V.
Last edited by Joe V; 11/04/13 08:45 PM.
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joined: May 2000
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From my experience, Joe, modal methods is where it all really starts.
In other words, the "other" ways of thinking are based on first knowing those modes, if Western Musics is what you are trying to learn to play.
Again, as with all else, the only way to approach learning the modes is one mode at a time.
A good starting mode for you, I'd recommend concentrating only on the Dorian mode. This mode lends itself easily to the guitar as well as being an essential mode for not only your stated goal of Flamenco playing. Carlos Santana solos almost exclusively in the Dorian mode, for example. So do a lot of Flamenco players, check out Paco's solos searching for hearing the Dorian in there.
On the guitar neck, one can simply shift one of the Major Scale patterns to suit the key of the backing and presto change-o there's the Dorian mode.
But do not neglect the Major and minor Pentatonic patterns as well. One can play a heckuva lot of geetar soloing switching back and forth between the properly selected Pentas and the Dorian.
The Major and minor pentatonics are hiding inside the Dorian scale. Just doesn't use all the notes.
--Mac
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joined: Jul 2007
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Some other ways, in context of course Blues /blues scale Chromatically (try fragments of the chromatic scale leading to a target note) whole tone scale diminished scale (great for transition chords) Altered scale There is a free PDF called "The scale syllabus" by Aebersold, which can help get these things into context. Often a weird chord symbol signifies one of the above You can base harmony on any scale or even no scale But most of all listen to this piece by John Cage: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gN2zcLBr_VM
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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It is important to understand that things such as the "modal method" are describing ways of thinking about it, as versus a methodology.
That said, the modal method is one of the fastest ways to organize that thinking that I know.
BTW - The "Blues Scale" - the Pentatonics, is also a mode IMHO.
If we study the musics of the entire world, not just Western Musics, we find that the Pentatonic mode is likely at the core of the whole thing, really.
As it is with the modern guitar, the Pentatonics are easy to learn, difficult to master.
The good news is that the Pentatonics can be used to play a heckuva lot of music as we progress along the way towards that mastery.
If you ever think that you've run out of possibilities with the Pentatonics, it isn't the scale or mode, it is YOU. To my ears, most who have that problem need to further investigate the art and science of Rhythm, Rhythm Figures, Timing (essential) and Phrasing. That will also expand one's use of the other modes as well.
--Mac
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Very interesting topic to me as after all these years I am still not sure how to describe my soloing methodology. I have learned more here as to the technical terminology that may be applied to describe what I play than any were else.
Very often after I finish a song on a live gig I have someone ask how did I decide what I would play on that solo? And the correct answer is while I do have plan it is a very loose plan. That plan is to try my best to think of the melody and play a solo by feel in, on and around that melody. With this said I guess without even knowing the technical terminology I am in fact practicing (by accident maybe) all of the methods mentioned within this thread.
Still learning and loving it.
Later,
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Very interesting topic to me as after all these years I am still not sure how to describe my soloing methodology. I have learned more here as to the technical terminology that may be applied to describe what I play than any were else.
Very often after I finish a song on a live gig I have someone ask how did I decide what I would play on that solo? And the correct answer is while I do have plan it is a very loose plan. That plan is to try my best to think of the melody and play a solo by feel in, on and around that melody. With this said I guess without even knowing the technical terminology I am in fact practicing (by accident maybe) all of the methods mentioned within this thread.
Still learning and loving it.
Later, That is the secret in playing Danny! Play what you feel then go back and technically analyze what you played. Nothing is more boring than hearing someone play scales for a lead line 
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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Joined: Jul 2007
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Danny et al...
I am thinking of Lester Young and Stan Getz whose style was to learn the tune and then work off the melody, this approach is appealing to my ears, whilst the chordal approach favoured by (some) technical beboppers, for example, produces a different style where the melody hardly shows its face. Both approaches are legit to a particular body of listeners of course.
On sax I play off the melody, like Danny, but I find this much harder to do on piano as there are so many fingers to think about - Oh I wish I could do this on keys - intuitively!
Mac: Yeah! Pentatonics - great, lots of folk music tunes are based on these notes, they are definitely a safe base for impro too. I like to start ideas from the fifth of a pentatonic scale.
Good discussion, just my opinion...
Zero
Last edited by ZeroZero; 11/12/13 03:46 PM.
Win 11 64, Asus Rog Strix z390 mobo, 64 gig RAM, 8700k
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Woodshedding - Learning to Play!
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...That plan is to try my best to think of the melody and play a solo by feel in, on and around that melody... And that is what we should always strive to do. Far too many are taught the modes and never get that idea. And that leads to soloists who just string out scales, arpeggios, etc. that, while there aren't any clams, there isn't any emotion, art or feel to their solo either. These types usually gravitate towards flashy shows of fast runs and technique rather than the animation and drama of using the solo to accentuate that all important melody. There is an inverse to soloing the melody, too, which involves a kind of negative logic. Try to play notes *around* the Melody that kind of paints an image of the Melody, much in the same fashion as a photographic negative appears. My old teachers always emphasized never losing track of the Melody while playing. Even and especially while playing something seemingly far removed from it, that Melody should still be back there playing in your head. For one thing, if you exercise this, practice doing it, you will find that you will NEVER suffer the cruel fate of getting lost in the middle of your solo. Or the entire tune, for that matter. Audiences love the solo that pays respect to the Melody, too. The trick is to do it in such fashion that it is not easily recognized. --Mac
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