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#221078 - 11/13/13 12:56 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: Mac]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2010
Originally Posted By: Mac
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn


As to whether atheists support the rights of Christians I am unaware of any cases where atheists have tried to restrict what Christians do or say in their churches or homes.


Another reason to question your news sources, my friend.

Neighborhood Commitees, Town Councils, City Managements, etc. have been foisting their unconstitutional biased and hateful legislations, arbitrary regulations and even arrests onto Christians meeting in their own homes for at least two decades and counting.


--Mac

you may be watching too much Fox News Mac!

I'm curious...do you consider the Supreme Court rulings in 1962 and 1963 abolishing state-sanctioned prayer in public schools to be unconstitutional? How about the various rulings to remove religious symbols from the public square?

My position is simple and follows the Constitution. We all have freedom to believe (or not) as we wish. And the government cannot and should not promote any religion. If kids wish to pray during their lunch or recess I support that right and no one has taken that right away. But if a teacher or administrator attempts to lead the class/school in a prayer or actively promote a religious belief I oppose that. And so does our Constitution!

Likewise for religious symbols in the public square. That area is shared and paid for by all of us. Not by any one religious group. So I do not want to see a cross or star of David or star & crescent or any other religious symbol displayed in the town hall or courthouse.

For quite a long time Christianity has been the most popular religion in the United States. And because of that, this religion assumed certain privileges like having Christian prayers in public schools and having their religious symbols displayed prominently in the public square.

As we become more tolerant and considerate of others we have begun to remove many of these privileges from Christianity. And that is exactly as it should be based on our Constitution!

Many Christians feel persecuted because of this. But make no mistake, the removal of your religious practices and symbols from a public space where they never belonged is NOT persecution! It is simply the leveling of the playing field and removing of privileges Christianity should never have had in the first place!

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#221085 - 11/13/13 02:15 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn

you may be watching too much Fox News Mac!


I do not watch network television at all, period. Put that one away more than 30 years ago and never looked back, never miss it, either. No cable tv bills here, no satellite receiver, none of it.

However, since I'm still somewhat viable in the advertising game, I just checked the latest ratings and found that Fox Nearly Doubles CNN and MSNBC's Combined Prime Time Viewers Last Week.

You made that assumption simply because the particular article I chose in order to bring attention to a very real problem facing millions of Christian veterans of the US Armed Forces.


Quote:
I'm curious...do you consider the Supreme Court rulings in 1962 and 1963 abolishing state-sanctioned prayer in public schools to be unconstitutional?


state sanctioned prayer in public schools.

This stems from two rulings: Engel v. Vitale (1962) and Abington School District v. Schempp (1963)

Then in 1971 Lemon v. Kurtzman established the so-called "Lemon test" which states that in order to be constitutional under the First Amendment any practice sponsored within state run schools must: 1) have a secular purpose, 2) must neither advance nor inhibit religion, and 3) must not result in an excessive entanglement between government and religion.

Prayer has never been forbidden. Courts have consistently ruled that the students right to pray cannot be abridged unless it causes substantial disruption in the schools operations. What is forbidden is state sponsored prayer.

Quote:
How about the various rulings to remove religious symbols from the public square?

My position is simple and follows the Constitution. We all have freedom to believe (or not) as we wish. And the government cannot and should not promote any religion.


The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Seems to me that if any level of government outlaws or prohibits the free speech of ANY US citizen, the 1st Amendment is violated.

Therefore, I interpret the First of our Constitutional Amendments as telling us that any example of Free Speech placed on display by any private citizen or citizens is an exercise of this basic right.

It is also very clear from the other viewpoint as well, the US CONGRESS can not legally "make a law" that would attempt to establish a religion.

A display is not a congressionally made law!

Quote:
If kids wish to pray during their lunch or recess I support that right and no one has taken that right away.


Then you need to re-address your use of the word, "abolish" up there.

Which is it that you espouse really?


Quote:
But if a teacher or administrator attempts to lead the class/school in a prayer or actively promote a religious belief I oppose that. And so does our Constitution!


You may oppose it, and I would defend to the death your personal Constitutionally granted right to oppose it, but unless your teacher or administrator is 1) a member of Congress, 2) able to get the Congress to vote and pass a law that would require a particular religion, and 3) could get a President to sign same into law, I say that the Free Speech rights of these teachers and/or administers is being placed in jeopardy, and illegally so.

Quote:
Likewise for religious symbols in the public square. That area is shared and paid for by all of us. Not by any one religious group. So I do not want to see a cross or star of David or star & crescent or any other religious symbol displayed in the town hall or courthouse.


Again, you don't want to "see" it, and that is your position, but the Constitution is silent on the subject.

Quote:

For quite a long time Christianity has been the most popular religion in the United States. And because of that, this religion assumed certain privileges like having Christian prayers in public schools and having their religious symbols displayed prominently in the public square.


Whoa. What do I see here?

Your argument that this nation was not founded by Christians in the first place just went up in smoke in order for you to come up with an argument for this issue!

That leaves you in the position of standing in midair once again, my friend, this time trying desperately to use a nail to fasten a raw egg to the wall.

Quote:
As we become more tolerant and considerate of others we have begun to remove many of these privileges from Christianity.


That neither tolerates nor considers the Jewish or Christian citizens of this nation.

Tired old song and dance of hatred is all this is.

Surely you really don't want to be seen as the prejudiced, intolerant, anti-semitic and hate-filled person that says the things you have written here.


Quote:
And that is exactly as it should be based on our Constitution!


I disagree wholeheartedly with any and all of that.

Quote:
Many Christians feel persecuted because of this. But make no mistake, the removal of your religious practices and symbols from a public space where they never belonged is NOT persecution! It is simply the leveling of the playing field and removing of privileges Christianity should never have had in the first place!


You should read this part and understand it well.

I do not feel persecuted over all of this crap, and, really, I have just now begun to fight, as it were.


Those that want to change it, you are going to have to EARN it, in no uncertain terms and it is not Mac that you should worry about.

I'd suggest that you pick up a copy of "Fox's Book of Martyrs" and study it for real examples of real persecution, but in your case I'd be concerned that you would interpret it as a "howto".


--Mac
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#221088 - 11/13/13 02:39 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2010
Just to restate my position, no religion should have any sort of official place or preferential treatment in our government. Not yours, not mine, not no one's!

Keep your religion where it belongs...in your heart and in your home and in your church. And feel free to wear jewelry and clothing branded for your religion. That all fits under freedom of speech. But don't expect to be able to preach inside our public schools! It ain't allowed and it never should have been allowed!


Edited by JohnJohnJohn (11/13/13 02:56 PM)

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#221092 - 11/13/13 02:45 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: Mac]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2010
Originally Posted By: Mac
Those that want to change it, you are going to have to EARN it

We have already earned it and changed it Mac. And the changes continue. We are not going back to the "glorious" days of the first half of the 20th century where loving a particular deity was the litmus test for fitting in in our society. The world has moved on. And thank dog for that! laugh

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#221110 - 11/13/13 04:14 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
chulaivet1966 Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/10/13
Posts: 554
Loc: West coast
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
no religion should have any sort of official place or preferential treatment in our government. Not yours, not mine, not no one's! Keep your religion where it belongs...in your heart and in your home and in your church. And feel free to wear jewelry and clothing branded for your religion. That all fits under freedom of speech. But don't expect to be able to preach inside our public schools! It ain't allowed and it never should have been allowed!


I endorse the above....kinda reminds me of Matthew 6:6. smile

Back to topic.....
_________________________
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Respect to those that have served honorably.
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#221112 - 11/13/13 04:23 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: chulaivet1966]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3350
Loc: WV, USA
Originally Posted By: chulaivet1966
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
no religion should have any sort of official place or preferential treatment in our government. Not yours, not mine, not no one's! Keep your religion where it belongs...in your heart and in your home and in your church. And feel free to wear jewelry and clothing branded for your religion. That all fits under freedom of speech. But don't expect to be able to preach inside our public schools! It ain't allowed and it never should have been allowed!


I endorse the above....kinda reminds me of Matthew 6:6. smile



Quote:
Matthew 6:6 NIV

6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.


Well said and good choice of scripture quote. I also like the verse before.

Quote:
Matthew 6:5 NIV

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
_________________________
Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#221114 - 11/13/13 04:35 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3350
Loc: WV, USA
The so called “war on Christianity” in the USA is virtually non-existent.

The example Mac gave of the 2 wanna be chaplains wasn’t an example of discrimination. It was an example of a supervisor trying to keep 2 nut jobs out of the VA hospitals and keep them from running up and down the halls harassing sick veterans with hell fire and brimstone.


Edited by bobcflatpicker (11/13/13 05:28 PM)
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................................
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#221129 - 11/13/13 05:47 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Atheists are so fulla themselves and themselves only, I always love it when an Atheist who first tells me that the Bible is a "myth" then proceeds to do what we see here, quote the Bible.

See, they think that they are so superior and so much more intelligent than us stupid little Christians that we won't notice that absurd disconnect.

Or maybe the overzealous ego of self leads them to the erroneous belief that they can control us by quoting the very same scriptures that they claim to have no belief in whatsoever.

Always entertaining to see, though. cool


--Mac
_________________________
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#221131 - 11/13/13 05:48 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: Mac]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3350
Loc: WV, USA
Nonsense Mac. I was quoting the bible for your benefit.
_________________________
Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#221133 - 11/13/13 05:51 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Nonsense back at you, BobC, you neither want nor care about "my benefits" - which is exactly what this thread is about, my benefits as a veteran.



--Mac
_________________________
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#221134 - 11/13/13 05:55 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: Mac]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3350
Loc: WV, USA
Originally Posted By: Mac
Nonsense back at you, BobC, you neither want nor care about "my benefits" - which is exactly what this thread is about, my benefits as a veteran.



--Mac


Mac,

Since I started the thread, I should know what it's about.

It's about thanking our veterans for their service.

You are the one who injected religion into the discussion.
_________________________
Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#221137 - 11/13/13 06:26 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
musiclover Offline
Expert

Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 1416
Loc: Ireland
There is no doubt at all that wars have been fought against evil and the USA has more than done its part in combating evil and the tyrants of the world.

But at the same time its a crazy situation to give a 18 or a 19 year old a machine gun and send him off to war, im a lot of cases he/she probably has not the maturity to be in charge of such a weapon and untimately innocent people get killed. All nations do this so I can't think of any solution as an alternative.

As regards religion (being a practicing catholic myself) its good to ask yourself questions and not just accept in blind faith what is written in the bible or what others have told you, as others have told them.

On the other hand I have no time at all for die-hard atheists such as the high profile English Richard Dawkins, who want to push their atheist views down other peoples throats.

I have reached the stage in life that I more or less accept that there may not be an afterlife, that maybe after we die that is it. It would be great to really be sure that there is a God looking down and who will look after us after we die, but He sure as hell has a funny way of doing things when we see the terrible situation in wars and such places as the Philippines. Ah, blame it on nature and mankind not looking after his own, but in my opinion NO Concious being such as a God would idly stand by and see such suffering.

Saying that I go to church every Sunday, I enjoy going and because its the way I was brought up probably at the end a dying man will clutch at a a straw and if that straw is believing or praying to a God, no harm in doing it.

It does give a lot of people a lot of comfort to believe in God and religion and even if there is no afterlife, we will be dead and none the wiser.

When dealing with war and its terrible consequences I am not surprised at all that people bring religion into it, because being part of a war must be one of any human beings most testing experiences.

Musiclover


Edited by musiclover (11/13/13 06:30 PM)
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#221148 - 11/13/13 06:52 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6AYmzunPlQ

A TedX Talk.

There but for the grace of God go I.

The VA gave this young soldier drugs.

Not. Christ.

He served ten years in jail.

Don't waste yer breath, you can't prove that Christ would not have changed this young man's situation.

I, on the other hand, can point to two thousand years of men who have indeed been changed, born again, saved, after witnessing and taking part in the horrors of war.


--Mac
_________________________
PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here

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#221153 - 11/13/13 07:14 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: Mac]
bobcflatpicker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3350
Loc: WV, USA
Midair Mac,

That was a good clip and a snippet of a look inside the mind of a modern day veteran.

I do fail to see how it relates to you injecting a contentious discussion of religion into my desire to thank people like Andrew Chambers for their service to their fellow countrymen.

My gratitude to Andrew and all of his fellow veterans, (including you and my father), have nothing to do with religion.

I only regret that you insisted on converting a thankful comment into a contentious discussion.

_________________________
Bob
................................
http://soundcloud.com/bobcflatpicke/music-in-the-mountains

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#221200 - 11/14/13 09:48 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
_________________________
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