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#221112 - 11/13/13 04:23 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: chulaivet1966]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Registered: 10/27/07
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Loc: WV, USA
Originally Posted By: chulaivet1966
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
no religion should have any sort of official place or preferential treatment in our government. Not yours, not mine, not no one's! Keep your religion where it belongs...in your heart and in your home and in your church. And feel free to wear jewelry and clothing branded for your religion. That all fits under freedom of speech. But don't expect to be able to preach inside our public schools! It ain't allowed and it never should have been allowed!


I endorse the above....kinda reminds me of Matthew 6:6. smile



Quote:
Matthew 6:6 NIV

6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.


Well said and good choice of scripture quote. I also like the verse before.

Quote:
Matthew 6:5 NIV

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full.
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#221114 - 11/13/13 04:35 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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The so called “war on Christianity” in the USA is virtually non-existent.

The example Mac gave of the 2 wanna be chaplains wasn’t an example of discrimination. It was an example of a supervisor trying to keep 2 nut jobs out of the VA hospitals and keep them from running up and down the halls harassing sick veterans with hell fire and brimstone.


Edited by bobcflatpicker (11/13/13 05:28 PM)
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#221129 - 11/13/13 05:47 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Mac Offline
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Atheists are so fulla themselves and themselves only, I always love it when an Atheist who first tells me that the Bible is a "myth" then proceeds to do what we see here, quote the Bible.

See, they think that they are so superior and so much more intelligent than us stupid little Christians that we won't notice that absurd disconnect.

Or maybe the overzealous ego of self leads them to the erroneous belief that they can control us by quoting the very same scriptures that they claim to have no belief in whatsoever.

Always entertaining to see, though. cool


--Mac
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#221131 - 11/13/13 05:48 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: Mac]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Nonsense Mac. I was quoting the bible for your benefit.
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#221133 - 11/13/13 05:51 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Mac Offline
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Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Nonsense back at you, BobC, you neither want nor care about "my benefits" - which is exactly what this thread is about, my benefits as a veteran.



--Mac
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#221134 - 11/13/13 05:55 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: Mac]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Registered: 10/27/07
Posts: 3353
Loc: WV, USA
Originally Posted By: Mac
Nonsense back at you, BobC, you neither want nor care about "my benefits" - which is exactly what this thread is about, my benefits as a veteran.



--Mac


Mac,

Since I started the thread, I should know what it's about.

It's about thanking our veterans for their service.

You are the one who injected religion into the discussion.
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#221137 - 11/13/13 06:26 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
musiclover Offline
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Registered: 08/13/09
Posts: 1499
There is no doubt at all that wars have been fought against evil and the USA has more than done its part in combating evil and the tyrants of the world.

But at the same time its a crazy situation to give a 18 or a 19 year old a machine gun and send him off to war, im a lot of cases he/she probably has not the maturity to be in charge of such a weapon and untimately innocent people get killed. All nations do this so I can't think of any solution as an alternative.

As regards religion (being a practicing catholic myself) its good to ask yourself questions and not just accept in blind faith what is written in the bible or what others have told you, as others have told them.

On the other hand I have no time at all for die-hard atheists such as the high profile English Richard Dawkins, who want to push their atheist views down other peoples throats.

I have reached the stage in life that I more or less accept that there may not be an afterlife, that maybe after we die that is it. It would be great to really be sure that there is a God looking down and who will look after us after we die, but He sure as hell has a funny way of doing things when we see the terrible situation in wars and such places as the Philippines. Ah, blame it on nature and mankind not looking after his own, but in my opinion NO Concious being such as a God would idly stand by and see such suffering.

Saying that I go to church every Sunday, I enjoy going and because its the way I was brought up probably at the end a dying man will clutch at a a straw and if that straw is believing or praying to a God, no harm in doing it.

It does give a lot of people a lot of comfort to believe in God and religion and even if there is no afterlife, we will be dead and none the wiser.

When dealing with war and its terrible consequences I am not surprised at all that people bring religion into it, because being part of a war must be one of any human beings most testing experiences.

Musiclover


Edited by musiclover (11/13/13 06:30 PM)
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#221148 - 11/13/13 06:52 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Mac Offline
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6AYmzunPlQ

A TedX Talk.

There but for the grace of God go I.

The VA gave this young soldier drugs.

Not. Christ.

He served ten years in jail.

Don't waste yer breath, you can't prove that Christ would not have changed this young man's situation.

I, on the other hand, can point to two thousand years of men who have indeed been changed, born again, saved, after witnessing and taking part in the horrors of war.


--Mac
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#221153 - 11/13/13 07:14 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: Mac]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Midair Mac,

That was a good clip and a snippet of a look inside the mind of a modern day veteran.

I do fail to see how it relates to you injecting a contentious discussion of religion into my desire to thank people like Andrew Chambers for their service to their fellow countrymen.

My gratitude to Andrew and all of his fellow veterans, (including you and my father), have nothing to do with religion.

I only regret that you insisted on converting a thankful comment into a contentious discussion.

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#221200 - 11/14/13 09:48 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Mac Offline
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#221203 - 11/14/13 10:08 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker

I only regret that you insisted on converting a thankful comment into a contentious discussion.



All I did was ask for those who would like to do something besides just post a word of thanks on a forum to consider doing something about the fact that Veterans who are Christian and may be in the VA hospital system being treated for life-threatening medical issues be allowed access to Chaplains who excercise that which is part and parcel of the Christian faith - prayer in the name of Jesus.

Here is a quote of my post:

Quote:

Those US citizens who would like to help Veterans might want to help us correct situations such as this one.

These are, after all, one of the freedoms we served and fought to preserve, only to find them being taken away from us at the whim of beaurocrats and not the codified law of the land.


The contention came solely from your side of this thing.

I WILL defend, and that is what seems to irk you guys.

You guys don't seem to realize or even possibly know that we veterans took an oath "to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic".

When we mustered out of service, and thus became Veterans, there was no ceremony nor any form of recension of that oath.

Therefore it still applies.

I for one will not stand silent while hateful types like you guys attempt to illegally stomp all over my God-given rights.

And God-given they are, codified in our Declaration of Independence.

Quote:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


Do you have any idea how many US Armed Forces Veterans are Christians?

We. Pray. In. Jesus. Name.

And that, and only that, is what the article I posted is about.

It is a simple thing, but it eems to frighten you types into all sorts of emotional outbursts and false claims for some reason.


--Mac
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#221207 - 11/14/13 11:22 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
KeithS Offline
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Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 896
Loc: Mobile, Alabama
The story about these two chaplains just did not pass the smell test for me. It just didn't seem like a VA professional who routinely provides education to VA chaplains would behave in the manner alleged in the lawsuit. It just so happens that my sister has been with the VA in Long Beach ever since she finished her stint in the army back in the late 70's. I asked if she had heard anything about this and she said there had been some talk about it, and most of the gossip has said that the two Baptist chaplains went into the class and were being deliberately disruptive and it was in fact they who were harassing other participants in the class.

In a nutshell what I was told was the class was covering being sensitive to the wide range of beliefs that veterans have and that proselytizing while ministering to veterans was not appropriate. It seems that the two baptist felt it was their duty to do so and apparently they squared off with not only the instructor, but their fellow chaplains. The bible quoting had to do with these guys using the bible to back up their position that Jesus expected them to convert people and the opinion of the VA on that matter be damned. After a prolonged period of disrupting the class, they were asked to either drop the confrontation or get gone.
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#221211 - 11/14/13 11:50 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: KeithS]
Mac Offline
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Hearsay is not evidence.
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#221217 - 11/14/13 12:30 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: KeithS]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Quote:
The story about these two chaplains just did not pass the smell test for me.


It didn’t pass the smell test for me either. The majority of the article comes from the viewpoint of the lawyer for the complainants and he is posturing so I take what he has to say with a grain of salt and there is no doubt a lot more to the story than what’s contained in the article.

Quote:
The VA did not return telephone calls, but they did release a statement to NBC San Diego. The VA said the two men were “bullying other classmates and refusing to honor other faith groups.”


From the goarmy site: http://www.goarmy.com/chaplain/about.html

Quote:
Army Chaplains are expected to observe the distinctive doctrines of their faith while also honoring the right of others to observe their own faith. The Army is a pluralistic environment. Rabbis, Ministers, Imams and Priests serve our Soldiers with conviction and commitment. While serving their own faith groups in the Army, chaplains also ensure and provide the means for others to observe their own faith in accordance with US law and regulations.


If I thought for one minute that the rights of religious freedom were being denied to our current and former military personnel then I’d start firing off angry emails and phone calls to my senators and congressman. The words of that attorney didn’t convince me that was happening.
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#221226 - 11/14/13 02:12 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: Mac]
KeithS Offline
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Registered: 06/09/03
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Loc: Mobile, Alabama
Originally Posted By: Mac
Hearsay is not evidence.


True, but then anything from Fox News is probably spun until whatever truth was there is wrung out. I understand that you felt you had enough evidence to start encouraging people to call their congressmen but the whole story sounded suspicious to me. I have the instructor's email address. I don't know if she'll answer me, but I'm trying to get her side of the story.
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#221227 - 11/14/13 02:39 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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One of the most wonderful things about The United States is we do not have an official religion; everyone is free to believe what they want or not believe in any religion if they choose.

And I am also delighted that the de facto standard is changing rapidly so we are approaching a time when there will be no "unofficial religion" as well. I know this is painful for those who believe their religion is the only correct one and have enjoyed being the de facto standard for quite some time.

But this is truly good for our country, a country of Muslims and Jews and Christians and Buddhists and Atheists and Agnostics and Secular Humanists and lots of others as well!


So, if these Baptist chaplains felt their purpose in VA hospitals was in any way to spread their preferred religion then it is a Very Good Thing that they were removed. I would hope the VA would do the exact same thing to Muslim chaplains who wished to promote Islam to our wounded soldiers or Jewish Chaplains who wished to promote Judaism and so on.


Edited by JohnJohnJohn (11/14/13 02:39 PM)

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#221228 - 11/14/13 02:57 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: Mac]
KeithS Offline
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Registered: 06/09/03
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Loc: Mobile, Alabama
Originally Posted By: Mac
.....even arrests onto Christians meeting in their own homes for at least two decades and counting.
You can provide an example of Xtians being arrested in their homes for practicing their religion?
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#221245 - 11/14/13 04:52 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Mac Offline
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Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Quote:

Army Chaplains are expected to observe the distinctive doctrines of their faith while also honoring the right of others to observe their own faith.


Praying in the name of Jesus is the most distinctive part of the faith.

If Chaplains are ordered not to use Jesus' name, then something is not right.

The article I pointed to is not the first and not the only instance of this kind of thing going on in the US Military, not hardly. Focusing on the one story is not going to help you guys make your case.

As for "honoring the right of others to observe their own faith" -- This too is another herring thrown out by the opposition. Some in this very thread have gone there, talking about what a Christian chaplain must know to do if in a position of having to substitute as a chaplain for another religion. And that has nothing whatever to do with telling a chaplain what cannot be said when ministering to people of that chaplain's chosen faith. Besides that, the substitution of chaplains is a rule for ACTIVE military when deployed or in combat. This is the Veteran's Administration system and veterans are never deployed or in combat, we've already been there and done that. We Christian Veterans just want to be able to have our Chaplains and have them do what our faith requires, which in this case is simply to be able to pray in the name of Christ.

It is speech.

Whenever someone, anyone, who is in a position of authority of any kind oversteps their bounds and attempts the tyranny of censorship -- which is what you guys are advocating, actually -- someone's constitutional rights are being violated.


--Mac
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#221246 - 11/14/13 05:26 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: Mac]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Posts: 3353
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Quote:
Whenever someone, anyone, who is in a position of authority of any kind oversteps their bounds and attempts the tyranny of censorship -- which is what you guys are advocating, actually -- someone's constitutional rights are being violated.


Mac,

We commented on the article you posted. I don't know if anything in the article is true. The VA and the teacher can't really say much now that the lawsuit has been filed and I'm not going to accept a lawyers statement as fact without hearing out the other side.

I definitely don't advocate censorship, but as far as the rules on chaplains from the military, when preachers of any faith choose to be a chaplain they have to abide by the military's rules. If they can't accept those rules, they shouldn't become chaplains.

Every member of the military gives up a TON of freedoms when you join. You are agreeing to allow someone to tell you when to eat, when to sleep, when to take a shower, how to dress, how to act, how to think, what to do, when to do it, etc.

For the record, I fully support a ministers right to pray in Jesus' name. I also think that same preacher should exercise a little consideration for other peoples faith in an interfaith service or situation.

I just haven't seen anything conclusive that says they are being told not to use Jesus' name in a Christian service.


Edited by bobcflatpicker (11/14/13 05:39 PM)
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#221373 - 11/15/13 07:58 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Thank you to all our veteran’s for your service and sacrifice [Re: bobcflatpicker]
Mac Offline
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Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
'God Bless America' gets veteran in hot water with employer

Source is: KCRA TV, not Fox, not hardly.


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