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#265918 - 10/18/14 03:17 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Seduced By Perfect Pitch [Re: Sundance]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
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Lots of interesting and valid points of view being expressed here... though I wish the H word would remain absent from the discussion. No need to attack a friend when he has opinions we may not share.

What I think is interesting is that intelligent and analytical people can come up with very different conclusions about a topic. In the end, we make choices based on our own individual preferences... and debating such topics is a lot like debating whether chocolate or vanilla is better.

Having said all that, here is a clip I haven't seen posted yet, but may be the one to which Notes made reference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sET9NYIA5tA

to be honest, the more I listen to this clip, I hear artifacts that suggest somebody may have manipulated the vocals to make it worse (rather than being an un-edited natural voice)

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#265922 - 10/18/14 04:08 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Seduced By Perfect Pitch [Re: Pat Marr]
MarioD Offline
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Posts: 10366
Loc: Hamlin NY
Originally Posted By: Pat Marr
Lots of interesting and valid points of view being expressed here... though I wish the H word would remain absent from the discussion. No need to attack a friend when he has opinions we may not share.

What I think is interesting is that intelligent and analytical people can come up with very different conclusions about a topic. In the end, we make choices based on our own individual preferences... and debating such topics is a lot like debating whether chocolate or vanilla is better.

Having said all that, here is a clip I haven't seen posted yet, but may be the one to which Notes made reference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sET9NYIA5tA

to be honest, the more I listen to this clip, I hear artifacts that suggest somebody may have manipulated the vocals to make it worse (rather than being an un-edited natural voice)


Pat I think that vid might be a fake. Here is a vid of her real singing voice: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW-X9zF_S1c
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#265927 - 10/18/14 05:30 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Seduced By Perfect Pitch [Re: Sundance]
Lawrie Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
OK, I have a question.

What is "in tune"?

As a trombone player with an easily achieved pitch change, I'm like the string player (without frets), I can play the "right" note in any given context.

But what IS the right note?

Bach wrote works for "The well tempered Clavier" and it is still debatable which temperament he meant.

In the western world we are bombarded with "equal temperament" Every semitone is 100 cents from the next, even though this makes "perfect fifths" out of tune.

On the other hand, musicians who play fretless strings and other easily "tuned on the run" instruments (I guess that really only leaves trombones and singers) most often naturally use a "just temperament" which will make Perfect fourths and fifths "in tune" even though they will not match equal temperament.

SO, when using a tool such as Auto Tune, WHAT IS THE RIGHT NOTE? You will get different answers from different artists who use different instruments.

A piano player will have one answer, a violinist will have another. Often singers will have different answers again... There are so many temperaments that, even though by convention we usually use even temperament, most musicians prefer some form of just temperament.

Try this example: I really enjoy listening to the harmonies that barbershop quartets achieve - I reckon a good barbershop quartet is awesome harmony wise. Why? They sing "just temperament" is why. IMHO Autotune would break a barbershop quartet.

Then you have the singers who use "vocal gymnastics" to the same extreme that AT has been used and that many of us find so objectionable. To me, the vocal gymnastics is the singer saying "What is the ##^$@%$&#$@ note?"

So how does AT answer "What is the ##^$@%$&#$@ note?" and is it truly musical?

So I ask again: "What is "in tune"?"
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#265929 - 10/18/14 06:01 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Seduced By Perfect Pitch [Re: Sundance]
Pat Marr Offline
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Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7453
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:
So I ask again: "What is "in tune"?"

MAC woulda had a clever and theoretically correct answer for that.
(I don't)

Mac? Now would be a good time to come back...

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#265934 - 10/18/14 06:18 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Seduced By Perfect Pitch [Re: Sundance]
90 dB Offline
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"What is "in tune"?"


I always thought it was A/440 Hz. Of course, it may be different for a trombone, but it's always worked for me. grin
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#265947 - 10/18/14 09:07 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Seduced By Perfect Pitch [Re: 90 dB]
Lawrie Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
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Loc: NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: 90 dB
I always thought it was A/440 Hz. Of course, it may be different for a trombone, but it's always worked for me. grin


Well, by convention A IS currently 440HZ, but what is, say, C?

If you use even temperament then C is 261.63Hz if A is 440HZ, BUT, if you are using some form of JUST temperament then the frequency relationship of C to A is dependent on what KEY you're in.

This is an interesting, relevant and short read:
http://www.phy.mtu.edu/~suits/scales.html

According to a table from the link above, in the key of C, C is 261.63HZ, Equal temperament A is 440HZ BUT just Temperament A is 436.05 - this is actually a significant difference.

It is also worth noting that in equal temperament a diminished 5th is the same as an augmented 4th (in the C scale that would be Gb vs F#), BUT in a just temperament, they are DIFFERENT

There are also a couple of links to sound bytes which are quite revealing.

So I ask again, "What is "in tune"?"

Actually, maybe what I should really ask is can you see how "in tune" for one person may not be for another?

At this point I'd like to extend the expression of my antipathy to autotune: not only do I think it's a technological cheat, but I think it is a "dumbing down" of our musical sophistication, creating a "lowest common denominator" situation.

<edit> fixed link above


Edited by Lawrie (10/19/14 07:51 AM)
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#265957 - 10/18/14 10:05 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Seduced By Perfect Pitch [Re: Lawrie]
bobcflatpicker Offline
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Quote:
At this point I'd like to extend the expression of my antipathy to autotune: not only do I think it's a technological cheat, but I think it is a "dumbing down" of our musical sophistication, creating a "lowest common denominator" situation.


Great point Lawrie. Actually the whole comment on tuning was enlightening.

The degree to which AT or Melodyne is accepted depends a whole lot on the genre of the music and, as you say, the level of "musical sophistication" of the fan base.

If a classical singer were to use AT you'd immediately have a pretty severe backlash and no doubt the term "fraud" would pop up.

The same would be true for a bluegrass performer because the fans expect and even demand a high degree of proficiency from their top performers, although they're a little more forgiving of vocal shortcomings than the opera fans. They would rather hear a few off key notes than find out someone was "cheating" in order to sound better. Musical integrity is more important than the finished product.

I don't keep up with the jazz scene, but I'd expect them to also be pretty demanding.

The Pop music scene as a whole is another animal entirely. The musical sophistication of the fan base is a 0 on a scale from 1-10. They couldn't possibly care less about how much actual talent the performers have or how it's accomplished. All they care about is what comes out of their speakers and how the performer looks on stage or in the videos.

When it comes down to amateur or semi professional musicians or vocalists like those of us on the forum, each of us should feel free to use whatever we want that makes us feel good about our recordings.

I personally demand more from professionals who are vying for my music dollars, and even though I'm a mediocre singer, I wouldn't use AT to make my vocals sound better than they actually are.
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#265982 - 10/19/14 03:00 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Seduced By Perfect Pitch [Re: bobcflatpicker]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2057
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
even though I'm a mediocre singer, I wouldn't use AT to make my vocals sound better than they actually are.

just curious if you also eschew EQ and de-essers? or anything else an engineer might typically use to improve a vocal track? would double-tracking a vocal also be "cheating"?

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#265991 - 10/19/14 05:11 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Seduced By Perfect Pitch [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
GHinCH Offline
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Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 1486
Loc: Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
Originally Posted By: bobcflatpicker
even though I'm a mediocre singer, I wouldn't use AT to make my vocals sound better than they actually are.

just curious if you also eschew EQ and de-essers? or anything else an engineer might typically use to improve a vocal track? would double-tracking a vocal also be "cheating"?


I'd say: "That depends." Mankind always lived in a world where people sought to enhance deficiencies. The electric piano weighs less than a real one, an electric guitar can compete with horns while a classical guitar remains unheard in the sound carpet of a big band. Any weapon was created to enhance the strength of the user in a certain field of performance.

I use EQ at my most of performances to lower the volume of certain frequencies of the backing track that compete with my voice for the same space. In this case I call square dances and the dancers need to comprehend what I call to be able to dance that call.

If I'd use EQ to make my voice more pleasant, I probably would cheat, because at a campfire situation without any electronic help, it would stick out like said sore thumb.

De-Essers (and EQ) are often used to correct recording mistakes or deficencies of equipment. This is not cheating. If your voice is that way that sibilants are a lot louder than the rest, it is cheating.

For me cheating is something you do to hide inabilities. Everybody knows that recordings are usually not done in echo-prone mountain valleys, so echo is an effect that cheats and everybody knows. (There are recordings with echo that musicians were able to copy, just to find out that on the recording there was an echo machine employed. They felt cheated.) Artificial reverberation wets the tone, it is done in studios and live to simulate a certain room condition that creates exactly the sound I want.

In (almost) any case techology that eliminates the technical flaws of employed equipment and room characteristics is not cheating. Any technology that impresses the uninformed public with features that cannot reproduced without the technology (by that person!) is, imho, in the same category of cheating like Bob Norton's example of using performance enhancement drugs.

If I can sing and hit all the notes of a song when doing it live, but my voice experiences a mood swing in the studio AT is not cheating. It is a time and money saver. If I happen to play one note sharp or flat at a recording session, I could just record that part again and splice it into the recording -- or I could use Melodyne. Cheating is, if I play all the notes of a song and then create the Flight of the Bumble Bee with my DAW.

For me: If I can do it without the technology using technology in certain situations is not cheating. If "I" can't reproduce it (but somebody else could) without using technological performance enhancement features it is cheating.


Edited by GHinCH (10/19/14 05:13 AM)
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#266011 - 10/19/14 09:15 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Seduced By Perfect Pitch [Re: Sundance]
Notes Norton Offline
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Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4221
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
I think it's time for me to agree with those who disagree with me.

My stubborn opinion is that if you need auto-tune to get your vocals on pitch, you are not a singer. You could be a fabulous songwriter, an exciting performer, and/or a great dancer --- but part of being a singer to me is to be able to sing on pitch.

I worked very hard for years to get enough control to sing on pitch. I'm not a gifted, natural singer. I can manipulate the pitch on my sax easily, on pitch or intentionally off pitch by the degree I want (for expressive purposes). I sat first sax in the all-state band every year that I was in school. But the control of my voice took years of practice and training.

In today's market, we would have been robbed out of all the delights that Aretha Franklin gave us because she is overweight. Martha Wash proved that. And Aretha was on top of the pop charts so the pop music argument is lame. If there is another great singer out there without first class T and A, we won't get to hear her.

And that's sad.

I have nothing else to add to this conversation.

So as I said before, I just will have to agree with those who disagree.

Peace.

Notes


Edited by Notes Norton (10/19/14 09:16 AM)
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#266018 - 10/19/14 10:21 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Seduced By Perfect Pitch [Re: Notes Norton]
GHinCH Offline
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Registered: 01/08/10
Posts: 1486
Loc: Schleswig-Holstein, Germany
Originally Posted By: Notes Norton
In today's market, we would have been robbed out of all the delights that Aretha Franklin gave us because she is overweight. Martha Wash proved that. And Aretha was on top of the pop charts so the pop music argument is lame. If there is another great singer out there without first class T and A, we won't get to hear her.

And that's sad.

Notes


Yes.

Guido
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#266021 - 10/19/14 10:46 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Seduced By Perfect Pitch [Re: Sundance]
90 dB Offline
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“My stubborn opinion is that if you need auto-tune to get your vocals on pitch, you are not a singer. You could be a fabulous songwriter, an exciting performer, and/or a great dancer --- but part of being a singer to me is to be able to sing on pitch.”



You are not trying to sell music in a highly competitive market where 99% of your competition is using AT. The bar for live vocals is much lower.
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#266043 - 10/19/14 02:45 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Seduced By Perfect Pitch [Re: Sundance]
JohnJohnJohn Offline
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Registered: 06/25/12
Posts: 2057
to me, labeling someone's use of technology as "cheating" reeks of elitism. and to criticize successful artists because they "cheat" according to your definition of the word? well, that sounds like a big ol' bowl of sour grapes to me!

as I have said before, do whatever you want with your music and your performance. if you enjoy it then it is all good! and if you find a market that also loves it then that is even better! like so much in life you simply cannot listen to the elitists, purists, haters, etc. when trying to decide your direction!

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#266059 - 10/19/14 05:53 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Seduced By Perfect Pitch [Re: JohnJohnJohn]
Lawrie Offline
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Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
Hi John,
Originally Posted By: JohnJohnJohn
to me, labeling someone's use of technology as "cheating" reeks of elitism. <snip>

As stated, I don't sing, I play trombone, BUT I'll happily accept the title of "elitist" if that attitude will improve my trombone playing.

I want to be the best I can be, not the best some technology can pretend I am.

And I still ask the question: "What is in tune?" In fairness, if ALL the instruments you are using in your work are equal tempered, then that is the temperament you should be in tune to, but that isn't always the case.

When you start using unfretted strings and wind instruments (whose players can easily bend notes - and you can't bend a guitar string flat) you open up a whole new universe.

Even if the only one is an upright bass or fretless bass guitar - you immediately have a whole new (or is that old) world to play in.

Oh, and here is an observation that might have relevance - It seems to me that musicians who play unfretted instruments NATURALLY play just temperament, it's actually an effort to play even temperament and you have to listen very carefully to the fretted instruments (inc. piano/kbd etc) to do so.
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You're only paranoid if you're wrong!

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#266060 - 10/19/14 06:04 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Seduced By Perfect Pitch [Re: Lawrie]
MarioD Offline
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Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 10366
Loc: Hamlin NY
Originally Posted By: Lawrie
Hi John,


When you start using unfretted strings and wind instruments (whose players can easily bend notes - and you can't bend a guitar string flat) you open up a whole new universe.



I do agree with your but I must comment on this. You can in fact bend a guitar string flat with a whammy bar, i.e. a vibrato bar. That is of course assuming you have a whammy bar on your guitar.
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Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows customers can download this free patch update at http://www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#509

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Added: The drop station has MP3 and WMAL (lossless WMA) quadrants added.
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Fixed: Band-in-a-Box Server was unable to communicate with BB2018.
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Fixed: Disabling "Include 2 bar lead-in" setting in the Render Song to Audio File dialog would cause videos to be out of sync.
Fixed: It was not possible to type the # sharp character into the chord sheet if using a French keyboard.
Fixed: Some Amplitube TGS files and styles were missing in certain installations.
Fixed: Song would stop playing at bar 8 after rendering to an audio file.
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Fixed: The Tuner, MIDI Monitor, and Drum Kit window were always displaying in English instead of the user's language.

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It occurred to me this morning that it is the group effort that counts. That is, one kind word about another member's song, one piece of encouragement or generous suggestion, might cause that person to write the greatest song ever written, which might then go on to have a massive impact on some stranger's life, cause someone to fall in love, or turn their life around, and literally change the course of history. Because songs do that.

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