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Inspired by "dream wish - software" above, may I put before this august company my dream wish as a bass player getting very weary of paying $70-90 Australian (say, $50-65 USD) for each new set of bass strings.
How about a microprocessor stomp box that senses your notes and adds a preselected amount of higher order overtones, thus restoring the sonic complexity of new strings?
When I think of the processing involved in adding digital reverb of many different types, or digital chorus, flanging, delay, phasing, ring modulation, wah etc etc etc. I can hardly believe it isn't technically achievable.
Guitarists are likely to love it also, but bass players would be the bigger winners, given the disparity in string costs as per the example above.
Won't someone invent such a device,m instead of the hordes of semi useless pedals currently clogging the market?
Later, J.
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good points, all, lawrie but we can't limit our examination to a 2 dimensional waveform on an o-scope. if we considered each characteristic as a vector and analyze it in 3 dimensions (assuming that is made possible) then we would be able to extract a lot more information from the waveform, orders of magnitude more. perhaps the o-scope analogy is wrong. we need a multi-dimensional means of measuring perhaps 2 or 3 dozen factors simultaneously then running the results through a computer program capable of isolating the instruments. a friend, roger cota, designed a hand-held lie detector than detected vocal micro-tremors to indicate when the speaker was lying. in effect, he was using a a little known aspect of sound that had escaped other engineers' attention. that is the sort of thing i am alluding to. another circuit that fascinated me is the 'timbre gate' found in synthesizers. what if it were reversed and thereby used to identify various instruments rather than to clone them?
just some random thoughts.
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The Roland VB-99 V-Bass exists now. At $1200-$1500 USD for a system, it's hardly a stomp box, but it does what you ask in the process of emulating (it ain't true, but I'll say it like this anyway) any bass through any amp and effects. Plus pitch-to-MIDI conversion, so you can drive Roland-ready synths. And it SPECIFICALLY has string modeling. From Musicians Friend: Quote:
String Modeling is new to the VB-99, enabling to convert "Round Wound" strings to "Flat Wound" or "Black Nylon" for enhanced bass performance.
I hadn't thought of the string freshness factor, but now that you mention it, I don't change strings nearly as often as I used to on my synth-equipped guitar. As long as they have reasonable sustain and stay in tune, I'm good. I almost never hear the sound of the actual strings any more, and those digital ones always sound fresh . . .
R.
Edit: Don and I are saying the same thing in different terms. The Roland V-Axes are essentially guitar and bass computers. All the analysis to which he alludes has been done and is applied to your instrument and playing style while (doing an incredibly good job of) preserving the original dynamics--as well as duplicating the timbral and tonal differences of major instruments and amps (and Roland effects, hee hee).
If you haven't tried a V-Bass, you owe it to yourself to do so. And you don't need the latest and greatest version to do it, either. You can pick up the older Roland V-Bass on ebay for around $450 USD, the GK-3B pickup for another $200 and essentially have a studioful of axes (all with fresh strings, LOL) and amps that you can pack in a briefcase for less than a kilobuck. (I don't even fool with an amp these days except for casual jams; I just go straight to the board.)
Last edited by Ryszard; 06/23/09 09:05 PM.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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j,
such a box as you describe above is certainly possible. i or mac could probably design the circuit for you. but it begs the question: why is it not being done already?
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Don and Ryszard,
It might be that Dons first post above is actually intended for the "Dream wish - software" thread- not sure, but that's how I read it.
Ryszard, not sure that I want to leap into the brave new world (to me) of instrument and amp modelling. I might give a store demo a fly but personally I have enough trouble just competently playing a regular pickup and amp combination bass without adding 5 zillion choices of new sounds. Nevertheless I will look out for the Roland V- bass and if poss try it out.
Don, your question in your second post is well put. If there is no technical reason why such a device is not possible, is it possible then that the string manufacturers have exerted pressure on the pedal makers not to produce one, in order to keep shmucks like us buying strings?
Just a thought...
And it's John. I just J. for short among friends.
Cheers, J.
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A young fellow I knew when at CMU (he was in the software engineering dept. IIRC) was a bass player and engineer who designed just such a box.
it worked. He used it himself on gigs and never changed strangs. It was analog in design.
But nobody understood it nor bought it.
I'll try to dig up more info for you, but can't find anything right now.
--Mac
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Meanwhile, Boss has this pedal out ther: Quote:
A pedal which does this very well is the Boss LMB-3 Bass Limiter Enhancer. It has a more controls than a regular bass pedal and can make a cheap bass guitar with old strings sound like a not so cheap bass guitar with not so old strings. It’s the bass compressor that most bass players swear by.
Boss LMB-3
--Mac
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Quote:
Don, your question in your second post is well put. If there is no technical reason why such a device is not possible, is it possible then that the string manufacturers have exerted pressure on the pedal makers not to produce one, in order to keep shmucks like us buying strings?
Cheers, J.
J-Shack,
Don't go down the conspiracy road. That way lies madness.
I'm not trying to talk you into a universe of new sounds and presets, only I am. I've gotten to be rather a zealot about the thing. The VG-88 V-Guitar has transformed my playing, and me as a player, as well as keeping me from having to own and lug all that gear about. I don't know how often you change strings, but there has to be an economy in there somewhere along with everything else it offers.
An addendum to my point in the previous post is that modeling/emulation utilizes hypersampling. Google it and see what goes into it. Given the effort that it takes, it is unlikely that anyone would do it solely for the purpose of modeling strings. Then there is the issue of triggering the thing. It has to know which string you are playing, which means you need a divided pickup--the Roland GK3-B, e.g. Now you are into a system anyway. Since you have gone to the effort to write all that code and take all those samples, let's move on from the strings and sample the cool Js and Ps and Ricks, run 'em through those old Ampeg and Polytone amps, and throw on some FX for good measure. Which is precisely what the V-Bass (and guitar, and drums, and synth, and choir) are--modeling systems, and damned reasonable when you consider what has gone into making them and what they replace.
Note also that Roland's are unique among emulators. Fender has incorporated some of Roland's technology into a Strat, and Line 6 into one of their guitars. I don't know about basses. But even if they exist, you have to play their axe, and you are limited to the presets they have given you. The V-Axe lets you play your chosen instrument and does in fact give you that incredible palette. You don't have to delve any deeper than the presets (although it keeps me pretty busy; I'm still searching for my Grail.). But wouldn't it be nice to call up whatever the Holy Grail among bassists is whenever you liked . . . ? Or have an upright? And ALWAYS have (emulated) fresh strings?
I'm messing' with ya now.
R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Studies on the frequencies of bass guitar strings and what happens when they age have already been performed. By more than one researcher and the data more or less is corroborated.
The fellow I'm referring to did his work and came up with his product invention at least as far back as the '80s or so. His device was more or less a specified EQ unit that could restore missing harmonics, those that tend to lose amplitude as the bass string ages. It was a rather large box by today's standards, looked like a small amp head and he used to place it on top of his bass amp head. I do know that it worked and worked well for its intended purpose, which was to exend the life and use of bass guitar strings, making every performance sound as if the player was using brand new strings.
I view this as a different concept altogether from Digital Modeling, which is where R is trying to shift things. A solution, but a solution of a different kind altogether.
--Mac
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Quote:
(I don't even fool with an amp these days except for casual jams; I just go straight to the board.)
One of the things I like about living in LA is I will occasionally run into a really top pro player on a gig. They will come off the road from a big name tour and be available for a local $100 gig just for fun. One of these was a bass player last year and we had a gig on Catalina island and I had a chance to talk to him on the boat. We were talking about exactly that and he said he likes to use a bass modeller straight into the board and get his sound through the monitors. He talked about having a special bass with individual pickups, sounds like exactly what you're describing. He said it depends on the show and setup so it doesn't happen all the time but it's fairly common.
Bob
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You know, James Jamerson was rumored to NEVER change the strings on his bass - and the rumor includes that he paid folks to wear in strings on their axes and give him the used ones. That's part of how he got the sound he did (technique and genius aside).
I think this is detailed in the Funk Brothers movie - which if you haven't yet seen - it's an absolute must if you even just enjoy Motown music. If you are a fan, then it's a take-home exam. Report here with your findings once you've seen it.
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Jamerson would not have bothered to pay people to break in strings.
He kept the same set of strings on the same Fenderbass for the entire time, the thing didn't even have a case, it hung by the neckstrap in a locker at the old Motown studio house in between sessions.
However, it is important to remember that James did his work before the advent of Rotosound, before Slap Bass and a whole host of newer bass methods.
--Mac
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I'm currently playing a G&S musical (Pirates of Penzance) and the bass player has a lovely Fender fretless - with the original strings - refuses to change 'em 'cos new strings are too "bright". She prefers a sound as close to an upright as possible and never uses new strings for that reason.
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya  --=--You're only paranoid if you're wrong!
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I wouldn't dispute for a moment that there are issues of taste involved. Some folks really do prefer the "thunk" of an old Precision from the 60's or 70's with nickel type strings and passive pickups, and some, like me prefer the more modern "piano bass" sound of stainless steel strings and actives. The latter sound is, I think, a more complex tone, readily accepts slap and pop techniques and is perhaps responsible for bass assuming a greater prominence in the world of contemporary music in the last 25 years or so. I just get a bit fed up with having to pay through the nose to keep it going, and wonder how hard can it be to dream up some circuitry to add a (selectable) degree of these brighter upper order overtones or harmonics, call it what you will, to your sound.
Won't someone make one please?
(Incidentally Mac I had a look at a Boss LMB - 3 in my local music emporium yesterday. Wasn't sure about it and to my suprise walked out with a JamVOX instead. No more excuses for my ho hum guitar playing now!)
Cheers, John
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Seriously now, and practically speaking, a combination of a parametric equalizer and an exciter would be the approach I'd take if I were trying to do what you're talking about.
R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Recently all my bass playing has been done thru a Behringer Bass Vamp. It's amazing the difference that inexspensive little unit makes in my recordings. I think it was $99.
Russ Anyday above ground is a good day Computer is Hp Pavillion Vision 6 Ghz quad core AMD processor 8 Gig memory 1 TB hard drive 6 GB hard drive Windows 7 Premium Loose nut behind the keyboard
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A parametric eaqualiser I can grasp. And maybe even obtain. How would I approximate my way to an exciter?
J.
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Quote:
A parametric eaqualiser I can grasp. And maybe even obtain. How would I approximate my way to an exciter?
J.
The Aphex Aural Exciter was the first such device in the mid 1970s. Tube based at the time, it is now available as a single-space rackmount box. BBE's Sonic Maximizer is a widely used and well thought of alternateve.
See examples at Musician's Friend. (The link is a comparison of four units. If it doesn't work, just go to Musician's Friend and search on "exciter."
R.
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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