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Z
Namely that midi was dead in the water and Real Tracks/Drums were the way to go.
Alan I think this is a bit too strongly put. MIDI is very much alive and well. Its easy enough to input a live performance into MIDI and for certain instruments that is pretty close. These are the instruments like piano, where once a note is struck there is little change. For instruments such as woodwind and brass, it more about what happens throughout the note, not just the attack and decay. Most early software emulation divided notes into attack, sustain, decay portions. But its not enough. Take strings, there are over 50 different types of bowing, all of which can vary. I have often chosen staccato onl to realise that there are at least short medium and long staccatos but my package only has one type. VSTs are getting beter at all this, also with technologies like expression maps, its now possible to emulate much more closely and to do his on one track instead of many. I hope, and expect the next generation of VSTs to attempt to emulate each different instrument group in its own idiosyncratic manner, and to provide a GUI for each instrument, which is intuitive to those that play the real thing. I have not seen this yet, least not from the big houses, but its technically possible. I think MIDI may still get better Z
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It may well be that the design concept of BIAB is also the limitations to the experimental music that has evolved since the beginnings of BIAB.
The only way to progress may be to explore new ways that music can be put together. User Tracks are could be the beginning but the 32 bit limit holds it back.
What if(Real band excluded for this) more control were added to UT development where layering of sounds merged into more than just an instrument. Maybe garbage more of the time but maybe not some of the time.
Most of BIAB rt's is cut and paste of well manicured sounds, but the transition from one chord to the other demands it otherwise nothing works well.
So the algorithm that creates the RT's may need to be opened up to allow for more accidental possibilities.
Studio musicians are wonderfully skilled but there is no independence in the sound they produce, never expect it because it will never happen.Therefore the styles that BIAB create are like studio players, a generalization, not a unique performance.
I love BIAB, it has allowed us to create backing track that are better that commercial tracks, but if BIAB wants to bring in a younger,more non conformist musician to create today's evolving music, the tools have to allow for more user directed controls over the basic mechanics of the software.
It's also apparent that many who make music simply reprocess music that's out there and can't create new work on their own, this is proven by the explosion of DAW's and these features for recombining sound.
I don't mind the GUI but it will have to update as time goes by. No one else has come close to providing what BIAB does but is that because the market is so small that it's not worth the investment?
What if Peter implemented a feature, I'll call user chords. This would allow a user to create a series of notes like a "soloist in rt's" but in midi and tied to the key signature in such a way as to fit into the score.
Now I know this is a long babel and others have expressed their opinions,suggestions,et al. so take it as it's meant, with best of Seasons Greetings
Wyndham
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I think this is a bit too strongly put. MIDI is very much alive and well. Its easy enough to input a live performance into MIDI and for certain instruments that is pretty close. These are the instruments like piano, where once a note is struck there is little change. For instruments such as woodwind and brass, it more about what happens throughout the note, not just the attack and decay. Most early software emulation divided notes into attack, sustain, decay portions. But its not enough.
Take strings, there are over 50 different types of bowing, all of which can vary. I have often chosen staccato onl to realise that there are at least short medium and long staccatos but my package only has one type.
VSTs are getting beter at all this, also with technologies like expression maps, its now possible to emulate much more closely and to do his on one track instead of many.
I hope, and expect the next generation of VSTs to attempt to emulate each different instrument group in its own idiosyncratic manner, and to provide a GUI for each instrument, which is intuitive to those that play the real thing. I have not seen this yet, least not from the big houses, but its technically possible.
I think MIDI may still get better Z Please don't misunderstand me. I also think midi has got better and can get better still. I'm merely characterising the position adopted by BIAB at the time. A crossing in the road was reached due to what was an almost unanimous call for greater realism. Rather than improve the core midi capabilities it chose to concentrate on Real Drums/Tracks and other add-ons at the cost of user-definition and style editing. Of course this is no problem for a skilled pianist or drummer capable of coming up with custom parts of their own. For someone like me, skills in these areas are somewhat rudimentary, this takes away from the appeal and usefulness of the program. As i said in my post, there are things that BIAB could have implemented to improve the playback engine and the realism of the midi styles comping parts. Longer patterns; dedicated pattern chains, greater user definition of parameters relating to chord voicing, more variation and a greater contrast in dynamic level of style sub sections. With the exception of the belated and somewhat half-hearted adoption of the latter suggestion none of these routes were taken. Jammer Pro its closest competitor may lack the style database and other add ons due to lack of investment/business but in some ways its handling of the above midi parameters is far more flexible than BIAB. Perhaps one day PG music will take a closer look at its one time competitor and see the value in a route it chose not to go down. Alan
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Very interesting discussion. The problem is that the style over substance issue comes up. People sometimes judge the value of something by how it looks rather than what it can do. For my purposes I mainly use BIAB to generate real tracks which I then manipulate in a DAW. The 32 bit aspect does not bother me as I only use the program for generating something that I manipulate elsewhere. However I do accept that it needs to be 64 bit as this is how everything is developing just that a 64 bit edition would not actually add anything functionally for the way I use it. Comparing it to Cubase is a bit odd as it the programs are so different. Cubase is also a Steinberg product and Steinberg is owned by Yamaha which is a very large company with deep pockets and huge resources. Many users think that Cubase updates are actually pretty expensive. They also charge for their .5 updates. Reaper is my DAW of choice mainly because I find it to be fantastically stable and very fast to use. I bought a Reaper licence several years ago and the updates (which have been numerous) have been free of charge. when they do eventually release a manor new version then the updated license price is pretty fair. I think the large DAW companies must be quite worried about just how good Reaper is.
I guess BIAB will ultimately need to smarten the interface but trying to woo the young user is possibly a risky enterprise. You also don't want to alienate longstanding users.
For ny personal perspective I would like more flexibility of how BIAB can produce the chords and effects you might want. Quite often you have to use workarounds. Shots, holds, syncopations are all great but often you cannot quite get the effect you seek. Only four chords in a bar is definitely an issue. For me personalky attending to these structural arranging/performance output aspects are far more important than becoming slick in appearance or 64 bit.
Anyway enough rambling it is still an amazing program
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Just a follow up comment to anyone who thinks a new GUI is strictly cosmetic and therefore not as high a priority as other things. That is just plain wrong! A well-designed GUI is easier to use. Frustration is reduced substantially so you can concentrate on the creative endeavor instead of getting the software to work properly. Productivity is significantly enhanced when using a modern GUI because you can finish tasks and move through your workflow with fewer crashes and strange non-intuitive work-arounds. So, yes Virginia, a great GUI is critically important! 
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 12/07/14 04:17 PM.
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Just a follow up comment to anyone who thinks a new GUI is strictly cosmetic and therefore not as high a priority as other things. That is just plain wrong! A well-designed GUI is easier to use. Frustration is reduced substantially so you can concentrate on the creative endeavor instead of getting the software to work properly. Productivity is significantly enhanced when using a modern GUI because you can finish tasks and move through your workflow with fewer crashes and strange non-intuitive work-arounds. So, yes Virginia, a great GUI is critically important! +10000. This has been said maaaaany times in this forum.
BIAB 2024, latest build.
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Just a follow up comment to anyone who thinks a new GUI is strictly cosmetic and therefore not as high a priority as other things. That is just plain wrong! A well-designed GUI is easier to use. Frustration is reduced substantially so you can concentrate on the creative endeavor instead of getting the software to work properly. Productivity is significantly enhanced when using a modern GUI because you can finish tasks and move through your workflow with fewer crashes and strange non-intuitive work-arounds. So, yes Virginia, a great GUI is critically important! Totally agree, but its also no good to base a wonderful interface on a flakey core architecture. But concerning the GUI perhaps you care to comment on my post 'reimagining the gui'. Z
Last edited by ZeroZero; 12/07/14 11:16 PM.
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BTW - RobH - good to hear your valuable perspective
thank you all
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Title of the thread.
"why are the young not buying biab"
Why should they buy it, first impressions are important, and though I am of a certain age in fifties and love the program myself, I can't see many 18-25 year olds coming to love biab, quite simply its old mans software as far as they are concerned, some of the midi styles are enough to send you to sleep, and though I am not complaining I simply can not see many young ones taking to biab. If they did, we would see lots of them on the forum truth is we don't.
Someone said why is the audiophile edition so expensive, my answer is because PGmusic has set that price for people who they know can afford it, older people who are generally fairly well off and want to dabble in music.
On the other hand we shouldn't be really hard on PGmusic either. I am sure having a niche product they do have limited resources both financial and otherwise. It does take a lot of money to run a company.
How would we feel if some day we woke up to see that PGmusic was bought out by another company? Wouldn't be too much talk then about 64 bit or otherwise, probably all that would concern us would be "how am I going to keep biab activated"
I myself complain a lot about bugs and features on here, but at the same time its nice to be able to stand back and appreciate what we have at the moment.
Musiclover
Last edited by musiclover; 12/08/14 01:18 PM.
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So far everybody in this thread is talking about an idea with hints to other software. But most everything I have read here is wishful thinking in the sense of "if it was better". Please don't think that I see the GUIs of BIAB and RealBand as the absolute optimum. I already have said that I wish that those two and all other PGMusic programs should have the same look and feel. I don't think that the Adobe suite has the best of all GUIs available, but the GUIs are very similar; they have the same look and feel despite their totally different functionalities. What I read is: "It should be better." That is o.k. but not quantizeable.
So I read this interesting thread with one thought in mind: "Where's the beef?"
What would you think a great GUI for BIAB should look like?
Could you provide a sample GUI?
Maybe others of the great minds in this forum then have constructive ideas to hint PGMusic to develop the greater than Great GUI.
Guido
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So far everybody in this thread is talking about an idea with hints to other software. But most everything I have read here is wishful thinking in the sense of "if it was better". Please don't think that I see the GUIs of BIAB and RealBand as the absolute optimum. I already have said that I wish that those two and all other PGMusic programs should have the same look and feel. I don't think that the Adobe suite has the best of all GUIs available, but the GUIs are very similar; they have the same look and feel despite their totally different functionalities. What I read is: "It should be better." That is o.k. but not quantizeable.
So I read this interesting thread with one thought in mind: "Where's the beef?"
What would you think a great GUI for BIAB should look like?
Could you provide a sample GUI?
Maybe others of the great minds in this forum then have constructive ideas to hint PGMusic to develop the greater than Great GUI.
Guido Well, first of all, users of a GUI may not be knowledgeable enough to provide the direction for fixing it nor should they be expected to, even though their opinion that it needs updating may be perfectly valid! Great GUI design requires, - a team with experience in creating modern GUI - in-depth study of GUI standards - detailed analysis of current GUI trends - a critical look at the shortcomings of your current GUI - thorough review of similar (and even dissimilar) products in the marketplace - extensive testing with user groups - and probably more I have not thought of! This is NOT a trivial task nor one that could come about as one of the "50 New Features in 201X"!! PG has the problem/opportunity of having a seriously outdated GUI. To redesign it properly would likely require a comprehensive re-write from the ground up. And given the age of the code base I seriously doubt that there is any separation of code and data within the underlying structure (yes, I know data like RealTracks are external but I am referring to how it is wired up under the hood.) So it is doubtful they could retain much of their existing code except for low-level stuff like RT handling. So, that is some of the "beef"!  And here is a good starting point for locating the rest of the burger! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_interface_guidelineshttp://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa511258.aspxhttp://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dn688966.aspxhttp://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ff657751%28v=vs.85%29.aspx https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/index.htmlhttp://www.nngroup.com/http://www.jiscdigitalmedia.ac.uk/guide/graphical-user-interface-design-developing-usable-and-accessible-collection"The Windows Interface. An Application Design Guide" (1987, ISBN 1-55615-439-9) "Human Interface Guidelines: The Apple Desktop Interface" (1987, ISBN 0-201-17753-6)
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But, with that all said, I do not know whether this sort of major effort would be worth it to PG. I have no idea if their business plan includes targeting the younger demographic. Perhaps they are happy with the market they already serve and do not see any need to plan for growth of the product 5-10 years down the road. If a viable competitor were to appear their choice would be made for them but until (and unless) that happens they may in fact be content to keep patching the same software each year. And, as I and others have said before, in spite of the dated GUI, this software does such amazing things that I am a customer for life! ------ Oh, one last thing...if Dr. G were to call me up and say JohnJohnJohn, what should we do? I would probably say, - ignore 64-bit - ignore calls for a new GUI - work on a new product that is a RealTracks VSTi - keep the current BIAB for the existing and some number of new customers...patch it up a little every year...keep adding new RealTracks - but market the heck out of that new RealTracks VSTi product as the ultimate plug for every DAW on the planet - become a direct kompetitor to Kontakt and other big-name virtual instruments - over time BIAB becomes a legacy product and the new VSTi RealTracker becomes the flagship I'll be waiting for your call Dr. G!
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- work on a new product that is a RealTracks VSTi
RealTracks VSTi would be just another sample slingshot like many others on the market. What is music after all - it's not just 'notes' or sounds. Samplers won't be able to create musical phrases, let alone statements. RealTracks and samplers are just concepts too different to be comparable.
Martin
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- work on a new product that is a RealTracks VSTi
RealTracks VSTi would be just another sample slingshot like many others on the market. What is music after all - it's not just 'notes' or sounds. Samplers won't be able to create musical phrases, let alone statements. RealTracks and samplers are just concepts too different to be comparable. Baloney! I am NOT talking about turning RealTracks into samples. Rather, I am talking about a comprehensive plug that, when opened in a DAW, gives me the same song creating tools as BIAB. It would allow me to set up chords and tempo and key and rests and holds and most everything BIAB does now, but it would do it on the timeline of my DAW, including regen of bar by bar if I want! And before someone says "that is not possible" I use a MIDI composing tool that indeed does just that sort of functional interface to my DAW! And if anyone here has used Kontakt from NI you know there are lots of virtual instrument kits that include a whole lot more than just samples! RealTracks VST would be a killer product!
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- work on a new product that is a RealTracks VSTi
That's what I was thinking about for Reaper a Chord Track that will pitch & stretch a loop to it or some Extension that uses BIAB/RB to generate in Reaper. But if PG could do that as a PGVST ! you could load it in any DAW track, set it to Chords Window maybe generated up a midi chord track like EZKeys or just PGVST opens as a Chord Chart/Window as BB/RB. The next track down you load the PGVST set it this time for RealDrums Generation > Generate, it follows the Chord Chart tempo (locked to the Host tempo) and generates choosen RealDrums Track. The next track down you load the VST set it this time for RealTracks ..... The next track down you load the VST set it this time for Midi/SuperTracks.... The next track down you load the VST set it this time for Loops..... The next track down you load the VST set it this time for UserTracks...... and by being able to highlight sections in the Chord window Generate or Re-Generate bits or MultiRiffs. That was all thought in one moment, but if someone sat down. .
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EZDrummer VST is 15meg Guitar Rig 5 VST is 78 meg (Realband is 10 meg & BBW2 is 12 meg) Just an Artist impression. 
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- work on a new product that is a RealTracks VSTi
That's what I was thinking about for Reaper a Chord Track that will pitch & stretch a loop to it or some Extension that uses BIAB/RB to generate in Reaper. But if PG could do that as a PGVST ! you could load it in any DAW track, set it to Chords Window maybe generated up a midi chord track like EZKeys or just PGVST opens as a Chord Chart/Window as BB/RB. The next track down you load the PGVST set it this time for RealDrums Generation > Generate, it follows the Chord Chart tempo (locked to the Host tempo) and generates choosen RealDrums Track. The next track down you load the VST set it this time for RealTracks ..... The next track down you load the VST set it this time for Midi/SuperTracks.... The next track down you load the VST set it this time for Loops..... The next track down you load the VST set it this time for UserTracks...... and by being able to highlight sections in the Chord window Generate or Re-Generate bits or MultiRiffs. That was all thought in one moment, but if someone sat down. . This type of product would be a natural for PG since they already have the brain trust for RealTrack programming. They'd need to work on GUI for the interface but that would be a LOT less work than a complete new GUI for BIAB! And they'd need to do some RealTracks for modern music styles or integrate the loops even tighter. The new RealTrackVST would NOT eliminate the BIAB product nor distract from it dramatically! And this would be a killer new product that every magazine, forum, etc. would be raving about! IMHO, this is the way to introduce the entire world to RealTracks! Can you imagine how much fun it would be to demo this at NAMM? It would blow away every sample-based VST out there today!!! And all those young punks who do not think BIAB is kewl would crap their pants to get this VST!
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Yes 10-4 for sure (from the pre texting IM, CB days), "RealTracks for modern music styles" that's what I have been thinking. I suggested to make a trial version of PowerTracks 2015 with UserTracks and Loops, for $49 and you get the Free UserTrack Library, I was going to start making some Rap, House & Dance UTs to add to the UserTrack Library for the younger ones that could be accessed with PT2015 if it will do Loops and UTs it would have an advantage over Acid & Reaper to get younger users to PG.
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Hi JohnJohnJohn, some of that I knew already others are new to me. Thank you for investing the time to this rather exhausting link collection. (I have been in software development for quite a few years and know that there are only good developers on the market. You can distinguish two groups: the ones seeking a job and the ones having a job.) What I wanted to convey is: What is a good GUI depending on the product? BIAB was and is still intended also to be used on stage. So a good GUI for desktop use may and will deviate from a good GUI for use while playing on a stage. It boils down to the question: "Boss, could you pay more?" and he says yes: "Of course, I'll give you a raise of one dollar per month." Not the answer one wants to hear, but it is more than before. So if one says "make it better" then please give an example; may it be in writing or drawing or by other means of just saying: "You didn't do a good job." Summary of the above see here: http://www.projectcartoon.com/cartoon/1278or the same in a more extende version: http://www.projectcartoon.com/pdf.php?CartoonID=5698&PaperSize=A4Guido
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So if one says "make it better" then please give an example; may it be in writing or drawing or by other means of just saying: "You didn't do a good job."
Guido
Many specific suggestions were made during the last years in the wishlist forum. For example here: http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=177671&an=
Last edited by Cerio; 12/09/14 05:02 AM.
BIAB 2024, latest build.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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