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They got £1000 a gig WHAT!!!! for mixing stuff, very clever but they are not musicians they are now technicians. They are both, musicians and technicians. 1. Musicians: They use THEIR version of Band-in-a-Box with RealTracks. They know what their RealTracks play, and how, and how fast. 2. Technicians: Most of the real life musicians are also technicians. - Almost nobody started in a band having a bunch of roadies and an FOH-mixing guy. We all, at lest the vast majority of us, had to set-up our equipment by ourselves, tune the instrument where applicable, connect the equipment...
- Each and everybody of us had to learn scales, chords, and the connection of both; chops and licks and entire tunes to play.
I don't say I like that, but drawing crowds of 5 to 6 digits for several hours per set is at least impressive. And, they improvise, they communicate with the masses, ... Per se they are not much different than a marching band playing for the 684th time "Seventysix Trombones" using the same arrangement or a Dixieland band playing their "'s Tight Like That" or the club dance band reiterating "Country Roads" for the two-steppers. It's all about what the customer wants. It's all about that bass, no treble bills, no coins in the pocket of the organizer.
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They are both, musicians and technicians.
1. Musicians: They use THEIR version of Band-in-a-Box with RealTracks. They know what their RealTracks play, and how, and how fast.
I respectfully disagree. Almost everyone either plays an instrument(s) - a musician - or writes lyrics - a song writer - or sings - another musician. If one just mixes and matches RTs then they are a talented DJ IMHO. 2. Technicians: Most of the real life musicians are also technicians. - Almost nobody started in a band having a bunch of roadies and an FOH-mixing guy. We all, at lest the vast majority of us, had to set-up our equipment by ourselves, tune the instrument where applicable, connect the equipment...
I agree Each and everybody of us had to learn scales, chords, and the connection of both; chops and licks and entire tunes to play. Again these are musicians
I don't say I like that, but drawing crowds of 5 to 6 digits for several hours per set is at least impressive.
And, they improvise, they communicate with the masses, ...
Per se they are not much different than a marching band playing for the 684th time "Seventysix Trombones" using the same arrangement or a Dixieland band playing their "'s Tight Like That" or the club dance band reiterating "Country Roads" for the two-steppers.
Again I will disagree using my previous musician DJ comparisons.
It's all about what the customer wants.
It's all about that bass, no treble bills, no coins in the pocket of the organizer.
Unfortunately this is true!
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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I remember reading in my college economics class about how some businesses who had achieved monopoly status lost out to upstart companies. In every case it was due to how they defined their business.
The railroads lost out to trucking because they failed to see themselves as a TRANSPORTATION business. They pigeonholed themselves as RAILROADS, nothing more. They had enough capital at the onset that they could have owned the trucking business from the get-go, but they lacked the vision to see the hand writing on the wall.
The swiss watch companies were approached with digital watch technology from its inception.. but instead of buying the technology and monopolizing the business, they laughed at it. Ultimately, It ate their lunch.
You can argue that a hand made swiss watch is better.. and of course , it is... but when there are lower priced alternatives that provide the same commercial benefit, fewer and fewer people will be willing to pay for the better product.
And so it is with music
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No matter how well they play CDs, they have yet to write a song. That puts them in a different category. They are not musicians. By that criteria, wouldn't they not be songwriters?  Nope. Just CD players. It may not be the type of music you or I like but check this from the Berklee College of Music: http://www.berklee.edu/events/detail/11393/turntable-technique-the-art-of-the-djRead this guy's bio. He's a musician and a very good one. Bob
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Another thing to keep in mind when we watch these videos of DJs playing to 30,000 people:
in every genre there are superstars who play to large audiences. There are plenty more using DJ software and cheap PAs who can't get gigs.
In the same way that you wouldn't beat yourself up because you can't fill a stadium or a festival like the superstars of today and yesterday, don't worry about what these guys are doing. It makes more sense to focus on the music we know and love, performed for an audience of our peers.
And, as 90dB has pointed out in response to some of my points, where our peers gather tends to be regional. So part of the task is in knowing your market. Notes and 90dB are still working because they know where they fit in the equation.
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Sooooo, let me think "out loud" for a minute.
I consider myself a musician: I can adequately play a few instruments, and similarly carry a tune vocally. I am somewhat proficient at BIAB.
Let's say I have composed a half dozen songs using BIAB entirely, and "released" them to the pubic. They are, by anyone's standard, "adequate".
Along comes an accomplished DJ, likes my songs, takes them to a "gig" where there is a multitude of people, and proceeds to "mix" them, lining up the "spikes" or whatever they do, and the crowd goes wild.
Who is more of a musician, me or the DJ?
Without my input, he wouldn't have a "hit" on his hand. Without his mixing talent, my songs are destined for obscurity, sitting on a website somewhere.
My expertise came from my knowledge of music and BIAB, his came from his knowledge of mixing and knowing what the crowd might enjoy.
He may not know a guitar from a sitar but is he any less a "person who makes music" than I?
LLOYD S
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He may not know a guitar from a sitar but is he any less a "person who makes music" than I?
Once again, standard disclaimer: IN MY OPINION.... There is a difference in my mind between a musician and someone who knows how to play an instrument, even many instruments. Musicians CREATE music. Players PLAY music. Musicians know MUSIC. Players know SONGS. SONGS written by MUSICIANS. There are a bazillion copy band players out there who play MUCH better than I ever did. I still do not consider them to be MUSICIANS if they lack the ability to compose and convey their own musical thoughts. I apply that across the board. The same concept applies to a PAINTER vs an ARTIST, a COOK and a CHEF, a BUILDER and an ARCHITECT. The artist creates a piece of are. Painters copy it. A chef creates recipes. A cook duplicates those recipes. An architect designs a building. A builder constructs it. Someone playing CDs or vinyl albums of other people's creations is not a musician. Once again... IN MY OPINION. I just don't like or want to ever again play copy music. I will never put another composer's song on a CD. If I can't write 11 decent songs, I should quit. I have about 25 done, and about 10 more in the hopper. If a DJ wants to use any of my songs, as long as I get my BMI mechanicals for any airplay or my ASCAP royalties for live use, he is welcome to them.
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good points Eddie.
By your definition, I'm not a musician; but I have no problem with that. I never really thought that I was.
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me neither : (
...because I don't write
I used to differentiate between a musician as the one who played and instrument and an artist - as one who created.
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Eddie i seldom take the time to disagree with you my friend, but here i have to. By definition a musician is one who makes music. If one can play the chords, and or notes of a song he is making music. and practicing his musician ship. If one writes and composes music he is simply taking notes that have been around since the dawn of time and constructing them in a different arrangement. He plays a part. some write others play, and many of those same player do so with a lot of expression and skill. Some take a basic composition and enhance/augment/improve it, through skill and musicianship.
Using your architect/contractor illustration. Sure a good architect can design a building, but it takes a good skilled builder to make it come to life. I have been in construction for 40 years, and guess what many times the architects drawing would never work if the builder did not know how to interpret them and make up for the fact the architect knows paper, and design, but very little about practical building skills.
Music is the same in my mind many composers/writer design great music "plans" but it takes a skilled musician to interpret that to an audience.
As far as playing others material. I have heard really bad cover bands, but i have heard people interpret someones material and knock it out of the park! I have heard covers that were better than the original, and interpreted covers that left me amazed. While i understand your feeling, and to some degree agree with some of it. I think to round up every one in a box defeats the whole purpose of what music is all about, expression!
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The arts have always been difficult to define empirically... that's part of what differentiates them from the sciences
It also explains why art tends to change with fashion, while science remains fairly static.
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Eddie I agree with most of what you are saying but here is where I respectfully differ with you.
A musician can play an instrument or instruments regardless of what they play for money, i.e. cover bands or songs.
A creative musician (artists musician?) can create original music, again regardless of what they play for money.
Me, it's not about how many times you fail, it's about how many times you get back up.
Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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Well, then according to your definition Tommy Dorsey is no musician. I have to thnk about that.
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IN MY OPINION, anyone who is proficient on their instrument is a musician, whether it's classical, jazz or rock and roll. Ray
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IN MY OPINION, anyone who is proficient on their instrument is a musician, whether it's classical, jazz or rock and roll. Ray I agree wholeheartedly with Ray. If someone needs to put qualifiers on the term "musician", you say working musician, studio musician, classical musician, etc. If you're proficient on a musical instrument, then you've earned the right to be called a musician, even if you've never played a note in public, written a song or recorded. Why try to deny someone who's worked hard enough to become proficient on a musical instrument the honor of being called a musician just because they don't meet some additional nonsensical parameters? Sorry Eddie, but your ridiculous qualifiers don't make sense.
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I agree, that's too strict Eddie. Are you going to tell us that the first chair violinist for the Berlin Phil isn't a musician if he hasn't written anything? Ok, define anything. Everybody in any music class has to write something. Mostly it's not any good but they wrote something. So, if they totally suck on their instrument but they wrote a few things that were more or less musical that means they're musicians while the virtuoso instrumentalist isn't?
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Are you going to tell us that the first chair violinist for the Berlin Phil isn't a musician if he hasn't written anything? We are talking about people who hack their way through Mustang Sally, not professional symphony players who perform Eine Kleine Nachtmusik. That is not even an apple to apple comparison, but do whatever you like to make you feel right and that you "won". My life doesn't change either way. These discussions are not about extremes. They are about club level people hacking out a side income. The same way that by definition if someone pays you one dollar to perform you are a professional, saying that because someone can play an instrument makes them a musician may be your interpretation based on the literal definition. You may not agree, but to say I am wrong....? I said it was MY OPINION. How can MY OPINION be wrong? It doesn't have to be your opinion. If you want to think that someone who can make sound from an instrument is a musician, then call the trained monkeys at the zoo who can bang a mallet on a drum musicians as well. Frank Sinatra did not play an instrument. (Somehow that is the first name people throw into the mix when the cover/original debates rage.) By my definition, Sinatra was not a musician. He was a vocalist, and my favorite vocalist of all time. I have unlimited amounts of respect for The Chairman. He did not write, and he did not play. Making his living in the music business does not make him a musician. It makes him an entertainer. (See "respect" above.) The crooners who performed standards are apples and oranges from the local club hackers who play the 3 chord wonder songs because they require less skill than songs that actually maybe throw in a minor somewhere along the way. We ALL know the kind of players I typically refer to, those who do NOT work at the craft, those who do NOT care about the music, those who do NOT have the proper respect for it and just want to make their $75 and a bar tab at the corner bar. THAT group is NOT musicians. "The way" to enter my circle of who I call musicians is to write songs, record them, play them out, and fall on your face enough times to make you work harder at writing better songs. Take those songs on the road and play them in Peoria. Work your way up to the "tour bus and t-shirts sold at the arena shows" level. I fail to see how the chef vs cook analogy is off target, though frankly I don't care if anybody agrees or not. As I capitalized earlier, it is MY OPINION. My criteria is based on the creativity side, not the performance side. I say again, for now the 517th time, anybody can learn to play an instrument if they are willing to put in the time and repetitions. Playing an instrument is essentially muscle memory. If you play that major scale on your guitar neck 5000 times per day, eventually you will be able to play it fast and clean every time. The same is not true for the creative process. Every song is different. There is no muscle memory involved in songwriting. (Though some pedantic clown will likely point out that the brain is indeed a muscle.) This reminds me of a college literature course I once took and had a professor mark wrong a test question that asked for my opinion. How can an opinion be wrong? If what you are looking for it for me to puke up YOUR opinion and say it is mine just for a grade, you will be waiting a really long time.
Last edited by eddie1261; 12/27/14 11:49 PM.
I am using the new 1040XTRAEZ form this year. It has just 2 lines.
1. How much did you make in 2023?
2. Send it to us.
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“The greatest deception men suffer is from their own opinions.” Leonardo da Vinci So, in your opinion; since I write music, I am a “musician”? Bob “Notes” Norton, on the other hand, does not write. He does, however, play a wide variety of instruments and styles of music at hundreds of gigs per year. Is he not a “musician”? An opinion cannot be “wrong”, but it can be fallacious. 
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Sooooo, let me think "out loud" for a minute.
I consider myself a musician: I can adequately play a few instruments, and similarly carry a tune vocally. I am somewhat proficient at BIAB.
Let's say I have composed a half dozen songs using BIAB entirely, and "released" them to the pubic. They are, by anyone's standard, "adequate".
Along comes an accomplished DJ, likes my songs, takes them to a "gig" where there is a multitude of people, and proceeds to "mix" them, lining up the "spikes" or whatever they do, and the crowd goes wild.
Who is more of a musician, me or the DJ?
Without my input, he wouldn't have a "hit" on his hand. Without his mixing talent, my songs are destined for obscurity, sitting on a website somewhere.
My expertise came from my knowledge of music and BIAB, his came from his knowledge of mixing and knowing what the crowd might enjoy.
He may not know a guitar from a sitar but is he any less a "person who makes music" than I?
LLOYD S
Artist Mayer Hawthorne is a fitting example of your point. His desire and work output was toward becoming a top hip-hop DJ. To avoid paying royalties for commercial loops and songs, he began recording his own versions of 'sound like' Motown and Soul music songs. When he relocated to LA to advance his hip-hop career and auditioned, studio executives were impressed with his original recordings and convinced him to release an album of his original songs as a singer/songwriter rather than pursue a career as a hip-hop DJ. "Who is more of a musician, me or the DJ?" You are. I think there is a difference between creating a sound with an instrument and manipulating/operating a radio. I think playing an instrument is creating/copying musical sound at the source (instrument) whereas mixing existing loops, songs, phrases and sound effects is arranging. With the advent of software like BIAB, today, a person with absolutely no musical talent, knowledge or training can manufacturer original or cover authentic music created with real instruments by real musicians. I am of the opinion this person is not a musician, merely an arranger of existing content. Has a unique musical piece been created? Absolutely. However, this person, who may cannot play any instrument, carry a tune, have no knowledge of music theory, scales, chord progressions or any manner of anything one would normally regard a musician to know, can locate lyrics and chords on line or from books and copy them into BIAB, choose or create a style they like and the software will generate a complete backing track based of their arrangement. No musical skill necessary and no musician in the room. Elvis has left the building if you will.
Last edited by c_fogle; 12/28/14 07:07 AM.
BIAB Ultra Pak+ 2024:RB 2024, Latest builds: Dell Optiplex 7040 Desktop; Windows-10-64 bit, Intel Core i7-6700 3.4GHz CPU and 16 GB Ram Memory.
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Sometimes, my wife and I get into very long, long 'debates', only to find out we pretty much largely agree on the thing we wasted our time debating.
This is my OPINION...
I, for one, think I understand the point Eddie is trying to make - and I love the excitement he creates on here ; )
Even though I think he is mis-using the term musician - if you read the semantics of his reasoning - which he provides in excrutiating detail, I think we can all agree he is drawing some lines in the sand to clearly describes 'different caliburs of musicians'.
This is my OPINION...you're welcome to have your own, but mine is the right opinion...lol
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