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Carolyne,
A dynamic singer sings like a violinist or great guitarist plays and every single note should NOT be perfect or it will sound unhuman and suck the soul out of your voice. Even the tutorials from the maker of Melodyne tell you to always trust your EARS more than your eyes.
Melodyne is great but it has trouble with dynamic singers. It is tedious to use on vocals for singers like me, you and Janice (if anyone ever wished to use it on her) because the three of us "play" our voices like an instrument depending on the song and style we're doing.
Big labels hire people specifically to pitch correct so that the singer's character is not affected. I have researched this subject extensively and I use Melodyne essentials but not on everything. So I'm not against it but just an fyi. If you are not careful you will end up with a bunch of sharp notes in your phrasing.
In fact, based on a little experiment I did once. I think it's so easy to misuse Melodyne on vocals that people have become used to hearing sharp to the point they can't tell as much as they think they can.
When you run a solo guitar part through Melodyne it's fascinating how many "off" notes you will SEE by the top players that sound great on the track. It's all about EARS not eyes.
For best results use it with a DAW where you can hear both the track you are fixing and the backing music at the same time. Watch the tutorials and learn to split the notes instead of moving the first blobs you see. Stay away from auto correct.
Hope that helps you.
Josie
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To recap my POV.
If you're in it for fun, record your parts and move on...have fun and don't spend the money or the time....go kayaking, skiing, hiking, walk the dog, lay on the beach.... and enjoy life.... and incidentally, you can do both. You can record good tracks, fix them nicely, and still have a great life outside of the studio....they are not mutually exclusive.
If you're interested in this hobby or wish to do this thing at a more professional level, get the tools and learn them, then use them. And most importantly, learn WHEN you need them and when you don't.
At no point in my posts on this.... to my recollection without going back and reading them all again.....have I said to rely totally on the software's best guess. YOU NEED TO USE YOUR EARS and I think I reiterated this at least one time.... possibly more. There are places where you intentionally want to leave the note off pitch and several times as I know I have mentioned that I INTENTIONALLY MOVED a not to be flat by one degree or another....and that was done by EAR.
This is ART.... it's not rocket science.
I still stand by my statement that all vocal tracks can use some fixing one way or another. The important questions are.... do you really want to fix it.... and if that answer is "yes", then, by how much?
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 01/22/15 09:28 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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This is part of what makes bluegrass so popular. Lots of people don't like synthetic anything, and bluegrass is the one genre that has steadfastly resisted technology's influence. Bluegrass is real, and because bluegrass musicians don't depend on technology to fix anything, they tend to be very very very good! In a post apocalyptic world, whatever musicians are left will probably be playing bluegrass (there's a song there somewhere  ) This is part of what makes bluegrass so popular. Lots of people don't like synthetic anything, and bluegrass is the one genre that has steadfastly resisted technology's influence. Bluegrass is real, and because bluegrass musicians don't depend on technology to fix anything, they tend to be very very very good! In a post apocalyptic world, whatever musicians are left will probably be playing bluegrass (there's a song there somewhere ) Yep, the best BG groups can on stage, backstage, in the studio or in the parking lot produce "car horn" harmony that is absolutely nailed in timing, phrasing and pitch. We were privileged to share the stage with the best of them and it is a thing to behold up close.
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Thanks Josie,
Good counsel;I do understand. I have every intention if, and when I ever use ME, to do so sparingly, and for the right reasons in the right places.
-Carolyne
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I think we're all pretty much in agreement.
-Carolyne
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Thanks Josie,
Good counsel;I do understand. I have every intention if, and when I ever use ME, to do so sparingly, and for the right reasons in the right places.
-Carolyne That was how I used it on your vocal for the song that started this thread in motion.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I have been reading these posts with real interests as Herb had mentioned Melodine to me on a post giving me some feedback on my newest piece You Bring It Like A Storm. I can see I will have to pick this software up so I can Run my vocals through it when I am doing pop at the very least. But. . . I have to agree with several people who have stated in different ways that not all vocals should be handled this way or will even benefit from it. Yet, this may have nothing to do with vocal skill but rather current musical tastes. It's really nothing more than tailoring a sound to a particular expectation. In our other posts where we are chatting about this Herb has great point that modern pop simply demands that (to put it in it's worst light) soulless perfection. But I don't hear that in every genera even at the highest levels. I do however hear it in far more than just pop. I think this is about the expectation of sound and little else. I am currently writing this while listening to some 90's era alternative from a top 40 performer of the time. Her pitches are often wildly off but it's part of what drove her sound to stardom at the time (Alanis Morissette) But that was just the taste at the time. Now it's not. Just my thoughts Joe
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I use Melodyne for some singers.. I prefer not to use it.. To me it does a better job than auto tune.. (only my opinion, no offense to others)...
I prefer not to use pitch correctors.. I'm old.. when I was a kid we had to learn everything... slow that record player down, hum the solo, figure out the notes, do section by section speed back to normal...
I find so many young singers 20-30.. whose attitude, that's the way I sang it.. I don't like to rehearse, it takes away the spontaneity of my performance,, use autotune, or melodeon to fix it.. in fact they are undisciplined and and lazy.
Since I'm retired now, and no longer earning a living from music, I send those singers away. If I spent 20 hours getting the music right, trying ideas, etc.. I expect the singer to put in an equal amount of work.. ..
if time is short, and the pitch mistake not bad, I'll fix with melodyne,, but once I hear auto tune or melodyne on a singer, I automatically lose about 25 % or more of interest in the song.
Mellodyne and autotune are great for teaching a singer to improve, when they see their flat intros, swerve up to key , then overshoot it.. or the obnoxious vibrato a lot of singers use for any note longer than a 1/4.. They can improve just by singing, watching the pitch value vibrato, consonants etc. they can improve a lot quicker..
A tape recorder is a great teacher, with pitch recognition and illustration software,, a singer can make vast improvements.. My suggestion is to take a difficult melody section, sing it slower alone, no accompianent visualize the steps, take care to land right on the note not overshoot it, or slife up into to it. don't slap a vibrato onto every note,that gets boring real fast. it.. keep the tone pure.. when you can do it, bring the tempo up to speed.. decide where you want to slide into a note, where you want to flatten the end of a note.. and learn to gradually increase the strength of your vibrato, and learn to control the speed of it.. 90% of bad singers have one setting for vibrato, it instantly turns on/off and has only one speed.. You want the speed to of the vibratro to complement the music. it doesn't necessarily have to be in sync with it, also learn to control how sharp and flat you go..
The human voice is the greatest instrument of all.. And someone who can control all the various aspects of it, is a treasure.
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Thanks for the information on Melodyne, Mark. I bought ME it but can't figure out how to use it so I think it was a waste of money, as some of you warned. I just keep re-recording bad takes.
- Carolyne
Last edited by Carolyne; 02/03/15 07:44 PM.
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It's not that difficult to learn to use.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Thanks for the information on Melodyne, Mark. I bought ME it but can't figure out how to use it so I think it was a waste of money, as some of you warned. I just keep re-recording bad takes.
- Carolyne What are your problems? A number of us here will be glad to help so please just ask for it.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I have been reading these posts with real interests as Herb had mentioned Melodine to me on a post giving me some feedback on my newest piece You Bring It Like A Storm. I can see I will have to pick this software up so I can Run my vocals through it when I am doing pop at the very least. But. . . I have to agree with several people who have stated in different ways that not all vocals should be handled this way or will even benefit from it. Yet, this may have nothing to do with vocal skill but rather current musical tastes. It's really nothing more than tailoring a sound to a particular expectation. In our other posts where we are chatting about this Herb has great point that modern pop simply demands that (to put it in it's worst light) soulless perfection. But I don't hear that in every genera even at the highest levels. I do however hear it in far more than just pop. I think this is about the expectation of sound and little else. I am currently writing this while listening to some 90's era alternative from a top 40 performer of the time. Her pitches are often wildly off but it's part of what drove her sound to stardom at the time (Alanis Morissette) But that was just the taste at the time. Now it's not. Just my thoughts Joe Joe - Save your money. You, in particular, don't need Melodyne. All you need is a decent mic and a good preamp. AT may make your recordings technically sound better, but it will suck all of the life and soul out of your vocal. Don't sell your soul, Joe!  People who say AT is indiscernible have tin ears. For Pop, sure – crank that AT up! For real music, I prefer the little flaws that tell me that it's a human singing. Regards, Bob
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One vote against Melodyne.
Instead of a long litany, just a few highlights off the top of my head: 1. the manual doesn't explain how you actually use the Bridge connection, the writer presumed one is born with that knowledge. 2. In my DAW, hit the usual Undo Control-Z keystroke once and poof! Melodyne plugin is gone, along with potentially hours of work. Forgot the 1000th time it's the only program in the world where one *must* use the menu to select Undo. 3. Edit a take in Melodyne, then delete the take in the DAW - the empty track still plays. 4. With many more such hassles, sound quality for transposing is still worse than my DAW, Ableton Live's best setting, Complex Pro with Envelopes set to max. I spent all the time transposing a 32-bar snippet with Melodyne, Melodyne's result sounded tinny, so I tried the same thing with just Ableton Live - and the result sounds like the real deal. I guess that's Melodyne's swan song around here...
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I think its possible to use AT without sucking the life out of the performance..
It's just a matter of how you use it.
I rarely use it as a plugin on a whole track (unless intentionally wanting that sound or working with a really poor singer).
Rather using it to 'touch up' a phrase here or there can easily be pulled off without needing a tin ear.
Don't rely on it, but don't be afraid of it.
It's a tool best used in sparse moderation most of the time.
Even then, a good AT can be used pretty transparently if set up correctly; ie it doesn't touch the sound unless it gets off by over 'X' amount. Then you can adjust how fast and how accurately it does kick in. These are the tell tale points.
Problem is, many just pick a key and the preset settings and let 'er go.
Highlighting a phrase and correcting a note or two (judiciously) can be done pretty effectively in most cases, if you want to put in the time to get it right.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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One vote against Melodyne.
Instead of a long litany, just a few highlights off the top of my head: 1. the manual doesn't explain how you actually use the Bridge connection, the writer presumed one is born with that knowledge. 2. In my DAW, hit the usual Undo Control-Z keystroke once and poof! Melodyne plugin is gone, along with potentially hours of work. Forgot the 1000th time it's the only program in the world where one *must* use the menu to select Undo. 3. Edit a take in Melodyne, then delete the take in the DAW - the empty track still plays. 4. With many more such hassles, sound quality for transposing is still worse than my DAW, Ableton Live's best setting, Complex Pro with Envelopes set to max. I spent all the time transposing a 32-bar snippet with Melodyne, Melodyne's result sounded tinny, so I tried the same thing with just Ableton Live - and the result sounds like the real deal. I guess that's Melodyne's swan song around here... My observations on this comment: Swan song around here.... not hardly. 1. I use Melodyne and have for years and I've not heard of the "bridge connection". What am I missing? And I have Melodyne Editor full version. 2. Ever heard of the "SAVE" function? Use it and you can recover from any mistakes. Decent DAW's have an UNDO command too where if you accidentally delete something, another click brings it back. If you work on anything on a computer and don't save after major edits.... it's your own fault if you lose hours of work. 3. Understand how Melodyne works. It creates a duplicate into it's own memory/track and that's what you are working on and listening to when ME is active. It doesn't edit the DAW track directly, and it doesn't play it back. It creates a parallel track that it edits and uses for playback. When you finally bounce, then it writes to the DAW track. So if you delete something in the DAW track.... yup.... melodyne isn't looking at that track anyway so you don't hear those changes. 4. You're doing something wrong. Melodyne doesn't edit the EQ to make a track sound "tinny". Melodyne edits pitch, timing, and some other characteristics of the notes but I've never seen it do EQ. My suggestion is that you spend some time learning how this operates before you go bashing the best pitch correction software available to home recording enthusiasts. This software, when used correctly in a decent DAW.... both hardware software is referred to in that statement, you can not tell Melodyne was used to fix anything. It's totally transparent.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Herb, With all due respect, you are dismissing my remarks without knowing what I am talking about. Eg., Melodyne Bridge is a part of Studio or Cre8. Because you get the manual for Melodyne Editor with those two, the first things a DAW user needs to know to use Melodyne is not explained, which is rather glaring. The Undo issue us a known UI problem of the plugin. Etc. As far as tinny quality, if you never heard of it, here is a comparison I did a while ago using quick 1 bar vocal samples. The sample plays first untransposed, then Melodyned, then Abletoned, then TC Heliconed (then the next group follows) Vocal comparison (14 MB wav)First group is male vocal at -6semitones, next group is male vocal at +6 semitones, next is female vocal at -6 semitones, next female +6 semitones. Extreme transposing, yes, but that's where quality differences really come out. Melodyne at its best setting produced only second best results after Ableton. HTH.
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Good heavens. +/- 6 semitones is definitely transposing and not pitch correcting. I didn't listen to the samples you posted yet but using it for vocal pitch correction it would normally be more in the cents rather than semitones.
I only have Essentials and learned by watching tutorials. If it's used correctly and that's the big IF I think it's transparent enough. Used incorrectly it's clearly audible but imho so is most everything else. I haven't seen a program yet that doesn't have issues on some systems and there's always that learning curve.
I'm sorry to hear you've had so many problems with it. That is frustrating. Luckily with Reaper, I've had no issues with the program itself.
Josie
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Hello Josie,
You are correct, it's transposing. I don't use pitch correcting, if my vocal take is iffy I just sing another one until I get it right (or get enough good parts to assemble into a "right" composite). 6 semitones is an important production mark as it's the farthest a track might need to be transposed to match the key of some huge, existing multitrack arrangement. (7 semitones up is already the same as 5 semitones down.)
There are bigger transposing distances, like, when I want funk guitar to sound jangly, I purposely transpose an octave up etc., but those things aren't usually done with vocals. Anyhow, I deal with transposing all day long in the studio, and all I can say (as the owner of half a dozen transposing products, including Melodyne Editor), Melodyne is not the best quality tool for transposing... anymore. My 2 cents.
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mrdelurk.... What version of Melodyne are you talking about? Melodyne Bridge? Most of the DAW's that include Melodyne with it use the lowest Melodyne available which is Essentials and it has only the basic "essential" functions. If you have the ESSENTIALS version, you do NOT have the ability to alter the formant of the notes. This is important as you will see later in this post. Functions in the different versions: http://www.celemony.com/en/melodyne/functionsThere are a bunch of HOW TO videos on youtube for Melodyne. Everything from getting started to the most advanced techniques. Perhaps you should be using Autotune and not Melodyne Editor. (ME) For the style you are doing, Melodyne seems to be the wrong tool. Autotune would probably fit the job better. Everything has it's limits and going 6 semitones in either direction is certainly pushing the envelope with melodyne to retain that transparent quality it's known for. If I recall correctly, I used ME to take a certain lady's voice who sang only the lead melody, and moved some of her notes to harmony notes. I don't recall the exact distance they were moved, it was quite far, but the result came out sounding halfway decent...after I spent some time adjusting the formants. You hear her starting around 30 seconds in. All of the harmony parts started out as a unison track of her singing with me, on the melody. I used Editor to move and fix the notes. She then sings a verse without Editor being used on it. She echos over the chorus in her natural voice then another harmony by Editor. There is another female singer on this as well.... providing some background fills towards the end. And again at the end, harmony by Editor as both ladies are singing. (neither of the ladies could sing harmony very well so ME was used to create one on the lead female vox) The result is here>>>> http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=8575294Melodyne Editor (and assistant) has formant control which, if used properly can be used to get those voices sounding a bit more natural. If you are not aware of what formants are or what they do, I suggest learning about them and playing with that control function if your version has formant control. Basically, when you move a note more than half to a full semi-tone, you must adjust the formant to keep that voice sounding natural. If the pitch is moved and the formant is not.... you end up with some weird sounding stuff. I believe that is what you are describing as "tinny" in your post. Not EQ as I was thinking you were saying..... improper formants that don't match the pitch. Youtube has a bunch of videos on ME....this one is on formants: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPAINeIGxMcSome of what I heard in your clip sounds like what they show in this video.... formants are the answer... but...even then, if you listen to that clip soloed out... it's still not very natural sounding. The further you push a note from it's native tone.... the more you will need to adjust ALL of the parameters of that note to attempt to retain it's character. And the further you go, the more the artifacts will show up as evidenced in the clip you provided. As good as ME or AT is, neither of them can move notes large distances and have them sound natural. Technology just hasn't gotten there yet. Give them a few more years. When you push something beyond it's design limits and get poor results, don't blame the software.
Last edited by Guitarhacker; 02/21/15 03:38 AM.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Hello Herb, Before I bought my Melodyne Editor DNA, I went through lesser versions of Melodyne, so my referral to Melodyne Bridge relates to those versions. (Cre8 and Studio) Most audio transposing tools I use (not just Melodyne) offer formant control. While perhaps useable for gentle vocal fixes within a few cents, it makes transposition results far, far worse once serious semitone distances are involved. Having tested in detail what it can offer long ago, I avoid it like ebola. If it works for you for vocal autotuning and subtle harmonies (something I don't do, so I can't comment on ... nice song, congratulations) - wonderful, at least you have a use for it. 
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Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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