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Bob
I agree with all of your comments. MIDI was way ahead of its time when it became a standard, and remains absolutely viable.
30 years later, could it be improved? Yes - that's just common sense - everything can be improved given experience and exposure.
Is it End-Of-Life? Definitely Not! The industry would be in significant trouble without it.
I too am surprised that some people think they should move away from MIDI instead of keeping it in their arsenal as a valuable tool.
Best
Trevor
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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While I love audio, when I work with it or edit with it, I feel crippled. I want to do this and that and so many other things that I can do with MIDI, and they are impossible to do with audio loops. I suppose some day the tools for audio may catch up, but for now, I use audio when it's right with no tweaking, but I use MIDI 90% of the time. - Something as simple as tuning that ride cymbal to a cowbell or changing the guitar sound from a Les Paul to a Telecaster or a piano into a Rhodes is easy with MIDI - a couple of clicks away - and impossible with audio
- I can change the groove of an entire song by pushing or delaying the same beat(s) every measure
- change the balance of individual drum sounds-like increase/decrease the volume of the snare, ride, sock or whatever
- I can move the ride cymbal a clock tic or two sooner to add brightness without affecting volume
- transpose with no artifacts, to any other key or even a few octaves if I want
- duplicate a track - de-tune it slightly - and/or layer it with another instrumet to add fatness
- add crescendo/diminuendo and other expressive elements
- reduce-add-increase the FX like reverb/echo/chorus/etc.
- get the entire band to play quarter-note triplets or any kind of kick
- hold a note as long as I want
- add or increase/decrease the speed and/or intensity of the vibrato
- keep the same drum kit but change one of the drums - for example put the kick drum on another synth with no reverb so it thumps better or put the snare on another synth and add more reverb
- add song-specific licks that are so important to many popular songs - and do it without changing the tone of the instrument (almost impossible with audio even in the same studio with the same mic played by the same musician with the same instrument and using the same engineer)
- and thousands of other things not available with audio.
In other words, it's a big playground and I can play in MIDI with no limits to my heart's content. With a good MIDI sound module, you can get very close to audio in tone, and if you climb the moderate learning curve, you can get as expressive as any instrument. And a good MIDI synth is the first key. Most people who dis MIDI are using the software synth that comes in their computer. This is an el-cheapo synth that is predominantly good for games and IMHO is not ready for prime time. The second key is talent. MIDI is easy to plug in, step enter, and/or ignore the continuous controllers http://www.nortonmusic.com/midi_cc.html that add expressiveness to the music. The people who dis MIDI also don't realize that many of the instruments on virtually every hit record for the past 30 years are MIDI instruments. I've read about guitarists trying to get the sound of an instrument they thought was a guitar on a Nashville record, and was really a synth and impossible to duplicate on a guitar. Years ago Rolling Stone magazine chose a synth solo as one of the 500 all-time greatest guitar solos. We have both audio and MIDI tools available to us. It's about using the right tool for the particular job. --- Just as we have forks, spoons and knives at the dinner table. A crescent wrench can be used to drive a nail, but a hammer does it better. But that crescent wrench will remove a bolt better than the round nose gas pliers. I for one am not ready to abandon MIDI but will use it along side of audio. I have some hardware synths. I bought my first one in the 1980s, hooked it up to eihter my Atari, Motorola chip Mac, or PC-DOS 5 comouter, and it still works perfectly. MIDI is independent of the computer brand or OS. What worked with the Atari still works with Win8 or OSX. Sure some of the sounds are dated, but others are just perfect for particular songs. Through the years I've collected others. The old ones don't go out of date, they just become part of the group. And that's one good thing about hardware synths. I can choose the bass sound from one synth, the guitar sound from another, the sax from yet another, and even the conga drum from another. Another good thing about hardware synths is they all have about 5ms of latency. You can mix and match with no timing problems and no drain on the CPU of your computer. In summary, it's not a Real Tracks vs. MIDI Tracks thing, it's about having both at our disposal, and using the one that is most appropriate for the song at hand. And to get back on topic, with my EXPANDED MIDI styles, I can put a chord in BiaB on every eight note if I want. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton  Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I would love to see BIAB support 8th note resolution (of course, once we get it, folks will be screaming for 16th note resolution, you know for those 8-10 songs in the universe that change chords a 16th note before the next beat). Anyway, and this is in no way meant to diminish Bob Norton's sales (and I have purchased every style he has created), but if you accept the workaround for using two bars to represent one bar (hence 8th note resolution), then it seems to me that it's just math. PGMusic could easily write a conversion utility that takes an existing style and stretches the notes in the MIDI style to double their value, and then sets the default tempo to twice the current value. Run that against all the styles and voila, you have the same concept as Bob created. Bob's expanded styles are great, and I use them when I need 8th note chord resolution, but there are only a handful of them. I don't understand why all styles (Bob's and PGMusic's both, for example) couldn't be made to be expanded. Of course, they would have to increase the upper limit of styles in the StylePicker again. You can already expand chord durations (so you can always enter them as they appear on the sheet music or lead sheet), and then expand them. The problem then is how the underlying style plays them. You can't just double the tempo, because all the instrument would then play the riffs twice as fast. But change to the expanded style, and it sounds like it should using 2 bars to represent once bar. Or am I missing something here? Of course the problem with using expanded styles is that notation isn't going to look very good, you have to use double tempo (so songs faster than 120 normally are going to be pushing the upper limits of tempo supported by the BIAB when you double it). And I don't know how RealTracks would interact with them. But is seems to me that all that is needed is a little utility where you can select a style, for example. ZZMEDROK.STY, run it through the converter, and end up with 8ZZMEDRO.STY (for example, where the 8 represents 8th note resolution). Then once 8th note resolution is implemented natively, I suppose PGMusic could have a button to convert songs using expanded styles to revert to the original style, after which you could delete the "8*" styles, as they would no longer be needed. Again, am I missing something here?
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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With a good MIDI sound module, you can get very close to audio in tone, and if you climb the moderate learning curve, you can get as expressive as any instrument.
And a good MIDI synth is the first key. Most people who dis MIDI are using the software synth that comes in their computer. This is an el-cheapo synth that is predominantly good for games and IMHO is not ready for prime time.
Then why does every single Midi example you have at your site sound el-cheapo cheesy?
And to get back on topic, with my EXPANDED MIDI styles, I can put a chord in BiaB on every eight note if I want.
But, after I refined my post, I explained that I am not interested in putting a chord on the two AND using MIDI, but rather, using AUDIO. Can your expanded midi styles do that?
BIABguy
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Then why does every single Midi example you have at your site sound el-cheapo cheesy? Folks are only trying to help you here, BIABGuy. That's a pretty harsh response that does nothing to solve your problem at hand.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Then why does every single Midi example you have at your site sound el-cheapo cheesy? Folks are only trying to help you here, BIABGuy. That's a pretty harsh response that does nothing to solve your problem at hand. Yes, but I speaketh the truth. I am sorry that I wasn't clear right from the start re: audio. I don't use midi anymore, strictly audio.
BIABguy
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BIABGuy, before speaking the truth, you should have read Bob Norton's website first. Had you done so, you would have seen: The mp3 demos were recorded using either the Virtual Sound Canvas or a Sound Blaster Live! card at 32kbps. It's a low fidelity recording, the instruments will sound a little tinny, but you will be able to hear all the parts, and most importantly, they will download quickly on dial-up and broadband Internet connections. Those aren't the high quality synths he was talking about. Those are what most users will probably have on their computer (or had when the demos were created). That was a conscious choice, rather than recording something in high quality only to have a user ask "why theirs doesn't sound like that" after purchasing the software. There was a long discussion thread on this a number of years back. This was done so you get an idea of what the instrumentation of the styles sound like, not necessarily the sounds of the instruments themselves (because that depends on your own sound setup). It also makes it easy for non-high-bandwidth prospective buyers to get a sense of the styles without having to download large audio files. So hopefully that answers your question.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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BIABGuy, before speaking the truth, you should have read Bob Norton's website first. Had you done so, you would have seen: The mp3 demos were recorded using either the Virtual Sound Canvas or a Sound Blaster Live! card at 32kbps. It's a low fidelity recording, the instruments will sound a little tinny, but you will be able to hear all the parts, and most importantly, they will download quickly on dial-up and broadband Internet connections. ...This was done so you get an idea of what the instrumentation of the styles sound like, not necessarily the sounds of the instruments themselves (because that depends on your own sound setup). It also makes it easy for non-high-bandwidth prospective buyers to get a sense of the styles without having to download large audio files. So hopefully that answers your question. Thanks John for the explanation. I wasn't aware of that. The sounds at his site now make more sense. I would make two recommendations for Mr. Norton. First, since the site is rather ahem... 'busy' with bright colors and flashing things, I would tone down the page where he has his demos and make sure the note about the quality of the .mp3s is right at the very top where people wouldn't miss it. Second, I would try to have at least one or two REALLY good sounding mp3s available to listen to, and displayed near the top of the list with prominent indicators. That way potential customers would be able to get a good sense of what was possible with a good system/setup.
BIABguy
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[quote=Notes Norton]
With a good MIDI sound module, you can get very close to audio in tone, and if you climb the moderate learning curve, you can get as expressive as any instrument.
And a good MIDI synth is the first key. Most people who dis MIDI are using the software synth that comes in their computer. This is an el-cheapo synth that is predominantly good for games and IMHO is not ready for prime time. Then why does every single Midi example you have at your site sound el-cheapo cheesy? We've all been through this before. I use the built-in cheesy synth that BiaB supplies. If I used a good synth, a novice customer would expect great sounds out of their cheesy synth and then come back on me for misrepresenting my product. Don't laugh, it happened in the beginning of my mp3 demos. So I set out to make my demos at the lowest common denominator. I'm selling the parts, the notes, not the tones, and anyone who understands anything about MIDI knows that. For those that do not, I'd rather not sell a style than have a disappointed customer. It's my name, my reputation, and personal integrity that is at stake. ...
I would make two recommendations for Mr. Norton.
First, since the site is rather ahem... 'busy' with bright colors and flashing things, I would tone down the page where he has his demos and make sure the note about the quality of the .mp3s is right at the very top where people wouldn't miss it.
Second, I would try to have at least one or two REALLY good sounding mp3s available to listen to, and displayed near the top of the list with prominent indicators.
That way potential customers would be able to get a good sense of what was possible with a good system/setup.
Thanks for the suggestions BIABguy. And my suggestion back to you, is to take advantage of both MIDI and Real Tracks. In the end it's possible to make better music if you use all the tools at your disposal. Please understand this suggestion is meant to be helpful, not critical. Notes
Last edited by Notes Norton; 04/01/15 03:37 AM.
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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I'm a big fan of Note's work. We've had some discussions both in and out of the forum, and his integrity shines through in every interaction. Awhile ago, Bob solicited suggestions for improvement of his website and both of those given by BIABGuy were made (I made one of them, about providing a reference high quality sound sample). As for the look, I think it's a similar situation to BIAB, where we have the ongoing debate about the look of the GUI. I would rather Bob concentrate on making styles, and I can overlook the older appearance of his site. That site was one of the first websites out there for any purpose, using techniques we all used, and was recognized by awards at the time.
Bob, carry on. Your work is much appreciated.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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PG Music Staff
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For those interested in the differences in sound with Band-in-a-Box, with various MIDI synths, and RealTracks, we made a page with lots of demos to compare the various sounds. http://www.pgmusic.com/dare-to-compare.htm
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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No offence Peter, but every one of the demos using MIDI synths were pure "cheese". Exactly what one gets with any GM synth. Even the GM section on synths like the Yamaha Motif or Korg Kronos sound almost as bad.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I'm a big fan of Note's work. <...> I would rather Bob concentrate on making styles, and I can overlook the older appearance of his site. <...>
Bob, carry on. Your work is much appreciated.
Thanks for the kind words, Matt. I have 4 new style disks and 4 new fake disks completed. I'm working on the installation routines for Mac and PC, HTML code for the web site, CGI for the Shopping Cart, some triple checking for accuracy, and other details. I'm hoping for a release this month. Of course, unexpected delays can happen. I did a huge page of HTML code and it wasn't working. It took the better part of a day to find that I put a ' where a " belonged. Slow shift finger I suppose. The new disks are from the top of our request list. There's some jazz, rock, country, EDM, Latin American, European, and even Television styles and/or songs. I'm lucky enough to be gigging a lot in the Winter (it is "the season" here in Florida). After Easter the US winter residents and our Canadian guests go home, and that gives us more time to work on BiaB. The new styles are MIDI, the new fake disks have both MIDI and Real Track style suggestions. I write and maintain my own web site. By not contracting the job out, I can charge less for my styles. That saves my customers money. What a lot of people don't realize is that as soon as you go into business, everybody wants a piece of the profits. Your insurance goes up, your property taxes go up, the bank wants a piece of your deposits, the Visa/MC merchant's account wants a flat rate plus a percentage, the Visa/MC authorization company wants a piece of the action, shopping cart costs money, web host costs money, sub-contractors get paid, and the legal advice is expensive (however, I've been audited by BMI twice and came out as clean as a whistle, so it was well worth it). So a self-made website saves me money and that also saves you money. Some people don't like the way it looks. Other people have told me that they like the clean look and compared it to a search engine in looks. Can't please them all. Me? I don't think it's bad, but it's not stupendous either. I'd rather spend more time creating music products than learning more advanced website design, and I'd rather save both myself and my customers money by doing it in-house. That's my story and I'm sticking to it  Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Let me add another thing.
I think it's important to think about tone, but I also thing a lot of people think too much about tone, and not enough about the music itself.
Let me explain.
I'll take singers first. Does Stevie Nicks have a good voice? How about Dr. John? Rod Stewart? Bob Dylan? Louis Armstrong? Lou Reed? Tom Waits? Leonard Cohen? Lucinda Williams? Dolly Parton? Neil Young? John Lennon hated his own voice, the list goes on and on. So why have they sold zillions of records? Musicality and expression. It's more important than tone.
Take guitars. What is good guitar tone? Hendrix? Joe Pass? Jeff Beck? Carlos Montoya? Kenny Burrell, Slash? Wes Montgomery? Zakk? Larry Carlton? Duane Eddy? Robert Fripp?
And on which guitar and amp? Jimmy Page sounded better on an el-cheapo Danelectro than I'll probably ever sound on my Parker (I play better sax than he does though).
Charlie Parker (one of the highest 'sax gods' of the past) played a plastic sax and sold millions of copies of the recording. Charlie Parker technique and musicality did that.
Listeners like good tone, but tone without expression doesn't work. Expression without tone does, as is proven by so many examples through the years.
Personally, I think that as long as your tone is in the ballpark for the genre of music you are playing, it doesn't matter as long as your technique and expressiveness is right on.
Comments???
Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
https://www.nortonmusic.com
100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks
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Bob, in general, I think if you created a GM synth that somehow replicated the best players on each instrument in the world, but told the listener ahead of time it was just a GM synth, they would say it sounded cheesy. (And especially if all you played was a basic chord progression using the original ZZJAZZ style). I also bet if you actually recorded a session of live talented players, but then told someone it was a cheap GM synth, they would say, "yep, it sounds like a cheesy synth".
I'm not saying everyone here, because lots of folks have great ears. But for the vast majority of listeners, it's all in perception.
I know I fooled my church choir director with a MIDI rendition of a flute solo I wrote. He only heard the recording in the context of the entire song mix and complimented the sound and asked me who recorded the solo. He is no slouch; he teaches music history at the local college, teaches woodwinds to students, and plays clarinet and flute with two local symphony orchestras. I'm pretty sure he knows what a real flute sounds like.
And in general, my observation has been that folks diss the sound when it doesn't sound like how they would play it. On the forum here over the years, I've seen guitar player post where the guitar sounds awful, but the sax solo was nice. Or sax players saying the tenor sounds terrible, but piano was great. Or piano players saying the piano sounds like a kid's toy piano, but the acoustic bass rocked. Et cetera, et cetera.
I'm not saying there aren't awful synths and sounds (although sometimes they have their place), but as you said, how you play it has more to do with it than just the tone.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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<deleted after re-reading...decided I was offering unrequested critiques...didn't do anything to move the convo forward!>
Last edited by JohnJohnJohn; 04/02/15 07:54 PM.
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It must be that time of year again. This thread seems to repeat itself on an annual basis, but who's counting. 
Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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User Video: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®
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Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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