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#313862 - 10/09/15 06:00 PM [Post your own Tips and Tricks here] Re: How to do a flat 9 chord?! [Re: Icelander]
Noel96 Offline
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Eddy,

What are the two chords before and the two chords after the above chord. Also, is it possible to show us how they are voiced in the music (an image of that section of the score would help)? This will allow us to see the context of the harmony and would assist a great deal when suggesting a possible resolution for the issue.

Regards,
Noel
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#313865 - 10/09/15 06:26 PM [Post your own Tips and Tricks here] Re: How to do a flat 9 chord?! [Re: Noel96]
Icelander Offline
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Originally Posted By: Noel96
What are the two chords before and the two chords after the above chord. Also, is it possible to show us how they are voiced in the music (an image of that section of the score would help)? This will allow us to see the context of the harmony and would assist a great deal when suggesting a possible resolution for the issue.
Certainly, I was considering that myself, you just beat me to it. The actual score is in the key of B flat but I thought it would be simpler to set the example to the C key like keyboard players often do. This chord occurs only once, as a part of the intro of the piece, As you can see, it has much the hallmarks of a sus chord, e.g. doesn't linger and quickly resolves onto the dim. Anyway, here you go:


Attachments
Score.png


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#313886 - 10/09/15 09:29 PM [Post your own Tips and Tricks here] Re: How to do a flat 9 chord?! [Re: Icelander]
raymb1 Offline
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Your first chord could be written as BbdimMaj7.
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#313891 - 10/09/15 11:13 PM [Post your own Tips and Tricks here] Re: How to do a flat 9 chord?! [Re: Icelander]
Noel96 Offline
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Thanks, Eddy. That's interesting. How I see the music is...

1. Use of a pedal point Bb in the first three bars.

2. The A note in the soprano, bar 1, looks like it's a prepared dissonance since it initially occurs as a consonance that's carried over from the anacrusis.

I see the first chord as Bbmb5 (Bbdim triad) with the A as a dissonance (as mentioned above) that resolves to the G in the following bar. Diminished triads are supported in BIAB. If you have it set up, you can simply type Xdim, otherwise use Xdim5. (It's under Display Options.)



Because of the pedal point, it's also possible that Bb in the bass is the dissonance that resolves downwards to A in bar 4. A diminished chord is not a usual way to begin pedal point but, if it works, it works.

Possible chord progressions that I'd try...

If Bb (bass) is treated as the dissonance and the Db is treated as C#, it's enharmonic equivalent..

ONE
A/Bb - Dbdim/Bb - Cm/Bb - F7/A

If A (soprano) is treated as the dissonance, then...

TWO
Bbdim (triad) - Bbdim (triad) - Cm/Bb - F7/A

To get the best pedalpoint effect for the above, it would be possible to use "Chord Settings / Pedal Bass".

(Alternatively, try Bbdim - Dbdim/Bb - Cm/Bb - F7/A.)

I suspect that the first option under "TWO" will work best. I wouldn't worry about the soprano notes (A and then G) because these are melody and will either be sung or played and, when that happens, they will provide the required harmonic sound. I suspect that Bbdim will provide sufficient textural backing for the first two bars.

...MGU file with my suggestion


In both cases, I'd use Cm/Bb and not Cm7/Bb since the second option would double the 7th and this would most likely sound overdone.

That's just my take on it... it will be interesting to see what others say.

Regards,
Noel


Edited by Noel96 (10/10/15 06:12 AM)
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#313932 - 10/10/15 11:33 AM [Post your own Tips and Tricks here] Re: How to do a flat 9 chord?! [Re: Icelander]
Icelander Offline
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Ok, I feel rather foolish now, for having completely missed the obvious choice - utilise the sung melody! blush
What makes this even more embarrassing for me is that I myself have done just that in my own work, more than once. Heck, one prime case sample is even on here already in my "Bouncing" piece!! eek

Thanks so much for helping me see the light, everyone, Noel in particular. With your excellent inputs I think I can take it from here cool
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#313934 - 10/10/15 12:05 PM [Post your own Tips and Tricks here] Re: How to do a flat 9 chord?! [Re: Noel96]
Icelander Offline
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Originally Posted By: Noel96
I see the first chord as Bbmb5 (Bbdim triad) with the A as a dissonance (as mentioned above) that resolves to the G in the following bar.
This to me was the "Lights on!" part of your feedback beyond anything! I'm still kicking myself for missing what now seems so obvious. By leaving it up to the melody to create that tension, you've saved me a great deal of headache. Btw, the soprano A->G is definitely the focal point of the melody, since in Icelandic the accent of every word is always on the first syllable. So makes even more sense that the melody should be allowed to take care of that bit.
Originally Posted By: Noel96
Because of the pedal point, it's also possible that Bb in the bass is the dissonance that resolves downwards to A in bar 4. A diminished chord is not a usual way to begin pedal point but, if it works, it works.
I'm actually now leaning towards not following the pedal point(s) of the vocals (see reasoning re the soprano above) and just suffice with it 'as is' in the vocals, so we get something like

Bbdim (triad) - Edim7 - Cm7 - F7

This to me creates a more varied bass movement in the band, followed by the (to me) desirable IIm7-V7 resolution at the end leading nicely into the first chord of the verse (which starts with a Bb chord).
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#313953 - 10/10/15 02:02 PM [Post your own Tips and Tricks here] Re: How to do a flat 9 chord?! [Re: Icelander]
Noel96 Offline
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Hi Eddy,

There's nothing to feel embarrassed about. I often find that what seems obvious at the end of a learning journey was anything but obvious at the journey's start. We have a saying in English (not sure if you've come across it) that goes something like "Can't see the forest for the trees". It's a result of being human, I think.

I'm glad my thoughts helped.

Because pedal point can occur in any voice, by using a different bass line in the arrangement and leaving the pedal point to the choir voices since it is at the higher end of the register, I suspect you'll add an extra layer of harmonic interest.

Personally, I think this thread is a great post on the forum because the principles it contains will be valuable to many people.

All the best,
Noel
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#314108 - 10/11/15 04:45 PM [Post your own Tips and Tricks here] Re: How to do a flat 9 chord?! [Re: Noel96]
Icelander Offline
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Originally Posted By: Noel96
Personally, I think this thread is a great post on the forum because the principles it contains will be valuable to many people.
That was one of the reasons I tried to initially avoid making this thread too "case specific", so that it could be applied to other scenarios/users.
Though I also have to say somewhat doubt there are many on here who get as enthusiastic over music theory (or are indeed as knowledgeable!) as yourself. I myself must confess to looking up quite a bulk of your musical vocabulary there! wink

But yes, for me this definitely has been a valuable thread, so thank you once again to all who contributed smile
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#314693 - 10/16/15 04:01 PM [Post your own Tips and Tricks here] Re: How to do a flat 9 chord?! [Re: Icelander]
jazzmammal Offline
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Posts: 6556
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Guys, I really hate sounding like the hall monitor but this is not a forum for questions. Just steer a post with a question like this to the appropriate forum.

I keep going back to basics. Remember when Peter first created this forum with some fanfare several years ago? It was because we all wanted one place where good suggestions (Tips) and very clever workarounds of certain problems (Tricks) could be placed. Most of us agreed with this idea and agreed to keep the questions out of this forum. Now this forum is getting all cluttered up with questions again and Peter might as well shut it down and move everything to the Biab forum.

Icelander, with 875 posts you're not a nooby here, don't you get the point of this? Tip's and Tricks means this is where you post cool stuff that might help others, not questions.

Bob
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#314699 - 10/16/15 05:55 PM [Post your own Tips and Tricks here] Re: How to do a flat 9 chord?! [Re: jazzmammal]
Icelander Offline
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Loc: Iceland
I feel I'm being undeservedly put under scrutiny here, so must make a few points to this surprising - and rather belated, I might add! - "observation" to what I considered to be a well concluded (read:finished) thread, so here goes:

1. The final post I made to this thread was about a week ago, this topic was closed, at least on my part. and I was under the honest believe that my last entry had made this abundantly clear.

2.This thread wasn't just over & finished, it was so quite successfully too, as it brought on quite a few TIPS on how to deal with a particular issue, which in return were tremendously HELPFUL - and if that isn't the important part to consider when evaluating its merits (which I don't recall having been asked for), then I don't know what is. Then again, and leading up to...

3.
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
"Remember when Peter first created this forum with some fanfare several years ago?"
- NO!! I wasn't on here "several years ago", thank you very much, Mr. Presumptuous! Just because I may have been quite active on some sections of the Forum, is no grounds to jump to the 'conclusion' that I 'ought' to have intricate knowledge of all of them and their backstory. It so happens that this is my very first thread in this particular section, if that even matters.

And - just because your 'righteous' tone pissed me off - one final point:

4.
Originally Posted By: jazzmammal
Guys, I really hate sounding like the hall monitor but...
Really!? confused Well, you sure had me fooled there. It's funny how people can so severely contradict their own 'graceful' statement with just the single use of the word "but", innit whistle
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#314705 - 10/16/15 06:25 PM [Post your own Tips and Tricks here] Re: How to do a flat 9 chord?! [Re: Icelander]
Matt Finley Offline
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Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Perhaps it will be help to read the sticky, "FAQ and posting information for the Tips and Tricks forum".
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#314711 - 10/16/15 06:46 PM [Post your own Tips and Tricks here] Re: How to do a flat 9 chord?! [Re: Icelander]
Noel96 Offline
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Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 13526
Loc: Australia
Eddy,

Don't worry about it. Personally, I think that this thread contains many tips and tricks on how one goes about creating chords that are not contained in BIAB's vocabulary.

If the PG Music team don't see that this thread is properly located here, they'll move it to the forum that they feel more appropriate. At the end of the day, where a post ultimately resides is always PG Music's call.

All the best,
Noel
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#314713 - 10/16/15 06:50 PM [Post your own Tips and Tricks here] Re: How to do a flat 9 chord?! [Re: Matt Finley]
Icelander Offline
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Registered: 11/11/12
Posts: 2994
Loc: Iceland
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Perhaps it will be help to read the sticky, "FAQ and posting information for the Tips and Tricks forum".
Et tú, Brute?
Now, this was indeed an unexpected curveball, Mr. Finley. And you actually participated in the discussion of this thread, not a peep of objections then wink

Anyone else wanna jump on the wagon, while it's gaining such wonderful momentum?! I'M RIGHT HERE!! eek
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#314715 - 10/16/15 06:52 PM [Post your own Tips and Tricks here] Re: How to do a flat 9 chord?! [Re: Noel96]
Icelander Offline
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Registered: 11/11/12
Posts: 2994
Loc: Iceland
Originally Posted By: Noel96
Eddy,

Don't worry about it. Personally, I think that this thread contains many tips and tricks on how one goes about creating chords that are not contained in BIAB's vocabulary.

If the PG Music team don't see that this thread is properly located here, they'll move it to the forum that they feel more appropriate. At the end of the day, where a post ultimately resides if always PG Music's call.

All the best,
Noel
THANK YOU! laugh
If only I had seen this reply of support before I made my reply to Mr. Finley smirk
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#314765 - 10/17/15 08:24 AM [Post your own Tips and Tricks here] Re: How to do a flat 9 chord?! [Re: Matt Finley]
DEddy Offline
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Registered: 12/10/14
Posts: 689
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Matt Finley
Perhaps it will be help to read the sticky, "FAQ and posting information for the Tips and Tricks forum".


I couldn't find that info.??

DE
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#314767 - 10/17/15 08:36 AM [Post your own Tips and Tricks here] Re: How to do a flat 9 chord?! [Re: Icelander]
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17516
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
DE, it is the post by Peter Gannon directly above this one in the Tips and Tricks Forum. Dr. Gannon describes what the expectations are for this forum.
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#314998 - 10/18/15 04:50 PM [Post your own Tips and Tricks here] Re: How to do a flat 9 chord?! [Re: Icelander]
jazzmammal Offline
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Icelander, please.

How should I or anybody say this without pissing you off, eh?

I guess you never bothered to read the forum FAQs? You really think the moderators and in this case, Peter himself, put those FAQ's up there just because they look good but he doesn't expect anybody to read it?

From Peters last paragraph in his FAQ:

Please note: Posts that are not tips-and-tricks (for example posts with questions on using the program) should be posted in the general forum for Band-in-a-Box or RealBand, and will be moved there if posted here.

Is this really that difficult to understand?

The correct response from you should have been oh, I didn't realize that. I guess I should have read the FAQ. That's it, everything's fine, no problem. But what did you do? Jump all over me. Why? All I did was point out the obvious. Not cool man.

We all try to be understanding about things like this which is why I haven't said anything about questions in the Tips and Tricks forum for probably a year. You won the lotto I guess.

Finally, yes this is a perfectly legitimate discussion, good info here too. It's just in the wrong forum.

Bob
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