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Hi,
I have been told Real Band can read a BIAB file. As a result in the next few months I am thinking of using Real Band to record some live public jams to create demo recordings. During these jams A BIAB file would often be providing the bass and drum tracks while there could be 2 to 3 other instruments being played by people. So basically I want to have a P.A. mix feeding 2 or three amps out of a mixing board (amp for the audience, amp for the players, maybe an extra special amp for the drummer if a drummer needs to listen to BIAB playing bass). Years ago I knew a lot about multi-track tape recording but USB input to a recording program like real band is new to me and I have not even started real band yet. So I started thinking about the signal paths to get a Idea of what I need to do. I diagrammed two below. Doing this created some questions.
** Which setup below is the best or is there an even better way?
** Do I need to worry about lag time with the setups blow?
** What features do I need in a mixer? For example do I need USB and RCA output on all 4 output busses?
Any thoughts would be helpful for this this rusty tape recording guy new to the digital recording world :-)
Thanks,
John
Note: Where you see the ">>" symbols this is the beginning of the common output path to the two or three amplifiers for the P.A. Prior to the ">>" symbols this is where the signal is generated and where it goes for the purpose of recording the multi-tracks.
Option #1: (the best option I can think of)
BIAB drums, >>computer headphone out, mixer input 1, (mixer Output 2 to audience amp, mixer Output 3 to musician amp)
BIAB bass, >>computer headphone out, mixer input 1, (mixer Output 2 to audience amp, mixer Output 3 to musician amp)
Guitarist, mixer input 2, Mixer USB output 1 to recording with Real band, >>computer headphone out, mixer input 1, (mixer Output 2 to audience amp, mixer Output 3 to musician amp)
Pianist, mixer input 3, Mixer USB output 1 to recording with Real band, >>computer headphone out, mixer input 1, (mixer Output 2 to audience amp, mixer Output 3 to musician amp)
Sax mic, mixer input 4, Mixer USB output 1 to recording with Real band, >>computer headphone out, mixer input 1, (mixer output 2 to audience amp, mixer Output 3 to musician amp)
Option #2: (questionable because there are too many USB outputs feeding the computer)
BIAB drums, >>computer headphone out, mixer input 1, (mixer output 1 to audience amp, mixer output 2 to musician amp)
BIAB bass, >>computer headphone out, mixer input 1, (mixer output 1 to audience amp, mixer output 2 to musician amp)
Guitarist, mixer input 2, Mixer input 2 tap to usb out, Real band record, >>computer headphone out, mixer input 1, (mixer output 1 to audience amp, mixer output 2 to musician amp)
Pianist, mixer input 3, Mixer input 3 tap to usb out, Real band record, >>computer headphone out, mixer input 1, (mixer output 1 to audience amp, mixer output 2 to musician amp)
Sax mic, mixer input 4, Mixer input 4 tap to usb out, Real band record, >>computer headphone out, mixer input 1, (mixer output 1 to audience amp, mixer output 2 to musician amp)
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"** What features do I need in a mixer? "
If this means you do not have a mixer yet, there will be better options than either setup you are considering based on the mixer you purchase and the budget you have for the mixer.
It appears you plan to use a 2X2 USB analog mixer. If you haven't purchased a mixer, consider an analog multitrack USB instead of the standard analog USB 2X2 mixer. Either an analog Multitrack USB mixer or a Digital Mixer with USB or Firewire is designed to do exactly what you are trying to do. A live demo should reflect the best of one of your live performances so I don't recommend you compromise on the equipment because it can definitely affect the quality of your recording, even when the performance shines.
You can completely eliminate the computer, RealBand and the stress of trying to learn and record a quality demo on the fly by using an analog mixer with either 8 direct outs or 8 aux sends and purchase a rock solid Tascam DP-24 and send the 8 direct outs to the 8 inputs of the DP-24. It records 8 channels of WAV files simultaneously in 24 bit onto an SD card. It operates as simply as a cassette recorder. Just set your input levels, hit record and come back at the end of the show, and when you get home, pull out the SD card and import it into your favorite DAW.
It has a setting designed for recording live shows/performances that quickly allows you to select the songs and separate them into individual songs. I recommend the DP-24 over similar dedicated multitrack recorders because other units like the Zoom R8,16, and 24 require you access multiple layers of menus to get to certain features. The DP-24 has knobs and buttons. The Zoom recorders and also the Behringer multitrack will record tracks to a thumb drive but the ease of use and reliability of the DP-24 give me cause to prefer the tascam over others.
It does not require any computer setup, no asio or mme, no software to open, no tracks to assign. The only other special equipment is an inexpensive 8 channel TRS 1/4" recording cable or 8 1/4" individual TRS cables.
Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 08/10/16 05:25 AM.
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Hi Charlie, thanks for your reply. I use to have a Tascam 16 input board when I had my little 4 track tape studio so I am a bit biased in favour of your recommendation already :-) Long live Tascam :-) I had to do some basic reading to get up to speed on some of the terminology then I reread your post a few times and I was studying your mixer a this link http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DP24SD. Let me feed back my understanding of what you said. I could feed the two BIAB signals (drums and bass) out to this mixer along with the 3 live instruments signals as well (guitar, piano, sax) to create a P.A. mix to send to the amplifiers for musicians and audience while at the same time record all five of these input signals independently to the SD card for later input into Real band (or whatever) for mixing to create the demo recording. John
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I think you have the idea.
If you want to use the regenerating features of RB later, you can first open the BiaB file in RB, then import your (tascam) recorded tracks to other empty tracks in RB.
This way you'll have chords and tempo etc.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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You are correct. I suggest you render the BIAB tracks (signals) to a cd or mp3 player and feed the output to the mixer rather than use a computer. More stable and less equipment to haul, hookup, disconnect and you don't lose time waiting on boot up.
Many keyboards now come equipped with mp3 play capability.
Treat each of your desired outputs as a separate section. A mixer has many routing options and you can use the various routing to create three distinct and separate mixes. One mixer effectively becomes three mixers.
Mix one will be your front of house mix to the audience through the PA system. BiAB tracks, instruments, vocals all go through the FOH.
Mix two will be your stage monitor mix for the musicians and vocalists. If you don't want to include the drum count in to be heard through the FOH mix, You can use two channels to receive the BIAB tracks, both on the same output - panned hard right and record a click track on the left channel and feed the left channel through the monitor mix to whoever is cueing the BIAB tracks.
Mix three will be the outputs from the mixer to the Tascam DP-24 or other multitrack recorder. The DP-24 can record up to 8 tracks simultaneously. If your mixer has only 4 aux outs or 4 direct outs, that affects the number of channels you can record at once. The more channels you can record, the more control you will have over your mix. You can use direct outs or aux outs. If both are available, I suggest using direct outs to the Tascam and use the aux outs for the monitor mix. The FOH mix should output from the main outs.
Your mixer choices can be a regular analog mixer, a multitrack analog USB mixer, A 2X2 USB analog mixer or a Digital Mixer.
Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 08/10/16 02:21 PM.
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Thanks guys, I just checked my local music store and found out they do have the Tascam DP-24SD. https://www.long-mcquade.com/63885/Pro_Audio_Recording/Multi-track_Recorders/Tascam/DP-24SD_24-Track_Digital_Portastudio.htmIf the local branch of this store has one in stock for demo I could take your ideas and get them to show me how some of this would be done on the mixer. For the jams I would be running it is better if I can feed out of the computer using either BIAB or Real Band because I have a need to make last minute changes to the number of repeats of the BIAB file and creating an mp3 would slow things down too much. I assume Real Band can change the repeats. What I don't know is how the two or more output tracks of the BIAB file get out of the computer to the mixer for separate recording on the SD-Card. Would it be via USB feeding from the computer to the mixer since USB can carry so many separate track signals? If it is I need to learn how to redirect the BIAB file output to the USB. I am just thinking if this is how it is done the Real Band manual should have this info.
Last edited by bowlesj; 08/10/16 03:49 PM.
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To get the BIAB or RB tracks from the audio to the mixer would be determined by whether the mixer has USB capabilities or not. Not all mixers have USB. If the mixer does not have USB, it is better to use an audio interface than to use the poor quality of the computer sound card. There are many available for reasonable prices.
Focusrite Scarlett or Presonus Audiobox are two popular brands but there are many to choose from.
It is personal choice between the USB mixer or audio interface.
Regardless of how you choose to get the BIAB/RB audio from the computer to the mixer, the 8 available inputs to the DP-24 are analog and will come from the mixer outputs through cables that can be either XLR or 1/4" TRS cables.
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Thanks for your help Charlie. I will check into it a bit more deeply in the fall when I get these jams set up. John.
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What I don't get is why you want to record this way. You would need an interface that allows 16 or more tracks to multitrack record a live band. Plus you would have no way to know what tempo to set as the base for each song and your beats will not line up with the grid of the software. I don't know how much post editing you plan on doing. That will be key. If this is just to record a live band for their demo, you can do it any way you like as long as you have enough mics and don't do it on a little handheld device like one of those Tascam recorders that just sit on a mic stand in the middle of the room. At that point, a very valid option is to tap the mixer on an Aux bus and feed it to your interface. It is really huge to know if there is going to be post editing beyond using compression and such. With no timing grid it will be rough.
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If he records along with a BiaB file, the only issue should be lining up the '1' of the first beat.
Otherwise the clock on the given machine will adjust both the new generations and the prerecorded audio equally.
If it didn't, the ACW could fix, but normally the above would be the only issue, really.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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The purpose is pretty simple. If the playing is pretty good for a demo and the P.A. mix is off (generally on levels) I would like to fix up the levels so it can be a reasonable demo. I find that generally the BIAB mix itself is fine. So in other words the live instruments are too loud or too quiet relative to the BIAB mix. So if BIAB goes on track 1 mixed and the live instruments go on the other tracks it should fit the bill for the fix I have in mind. Regarding the P.A. mix everything will go through the P.A. (no individual guitar amps etc). I know some guys who play in a band regularly and who can never get the mix right because they don't do this. They also can't hear themselves. I did a little demo with my mickey mouse P.A. tap setup and it solved this problem. Once the mix is correct we all hear ourselves and everyone else as good as it needs to be for playing in time (but maybe not as it should be for a demo). However in the end maybe it does not matter. The demo is for restaurant/bar owners or coffee shop owners to hear so they can decide if they want our group of 20+ jazz jammers to jam at their location in a karaoke format where we rotate just like a normal Karaoke. So what I am saying is the demos should be a P.A. mix that could be a bit better and it may just be during the next performance (So why not emphasize the positive and make sure that great solo is a bit louder than what the audience heard when it was recorded).
Last edited by bowlesj; 08/11/16 05:40 PM.
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I am lost Harv. If his grid is set for 120 and the song is played at 128, then droops to 126, then speeds up to 132, and so forth, are you saying that BIAB is going to adjust that roller coaster tempo to grid if he pulls that initial downbeat onto 1 of the first measure? Old School Eddie only knows one way to record, and that is with a click track. Even when I did a "demo" I recorded the band in our basement rehearsal studio with a click track, and then after post editing we went out with a crowd of 35 or so friends we invited (and bribed with hot dogs and beers) to sit packed in and be the crowd, and we lip synced to our recorded demo for the video. We asked people to bring sweaters and jackets and move around from song to song, and we did 6 songs, so it looked like a bigger crowd than it was. The logic was that if we tried to do the demo live in real time, and we screwed up the music, we had to do the whole song again. And again. And again. This way we could fix the music in post and then do the mime thing for the demo video. We finished the whole thing in an hour. Had it taken 3 hours because of mistakes and retakes, they would have eaten and drank more than the first gig's pay!!
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Regarding BIAB versus RB;I looked at Real Band and I don't think it will cut it for doing a live jam in a Karaoke rotational format where (unexpect people will want to join in adding extra repeats to the song or they want to change the BIAB style at the last minute) and where things still have to go fast and smooth. Real Band would probably be used for the later mixing of the demo. Regarding staying in sync;I would think (3 people playing live into the TASCAM DP-24) along with BIAB providing another input into the TASCAM DP-24 should already be in sync because BIAB keeps flawless time (as good as any metronome). These 4 inputs would be mixed inside the TASCAM DP-24 to a P.A. and also fed to the Tascam DP-24 SD-Card. The tracks should already be lined up properly on the SD-Card (should they not) such that importing the SD-Card data into Real Band for adjusting the mix later should be easy. I have a friend who does stuff like this all the time and he says the software automatically lines things up (he often uses Ableton Live but he has used Real Band). Regarding the BIAB computer output;I had trouble finding a USB audio device to feed the computer BIAB tracks out to the TASCAM DP-24 (they all seem to want to send the signal the other direction from the mixer to the computer). However I don't really think it matters since feeding the BIAB signal out the computer headset plug to the TASCAM DP-24 is good enough quality for a noisy bar or restaurant (it is amazing how good this signal sounds when you run it out to a good amp with good large speakers as opposed to the normally lousy computer speakers). If others have compared and disagree maybe I already have a good sound card on my computer. I will have to test this on my new MSI laptop (if they can resolve the battery charging issue it has). Regarding feeding 2 or 3 amps for live listening;The TASCAM DP-24 seems to only have output for one amplifier. I am assuming I can buy a device to send this signal to more than one guitar amp or P.A. system. Regarding tapping into the TASCAM DP-24 versus a mic out front;I tried recording with a quality mic out front and the recording quality was terrible relative to taking a direct tap off the P.A. mix of my old Teac model-2. I think the room echos screw up the out front mic signal. Regarding recording live shows generally;I found this link very interesting. http://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/recording-live-showThis article makes me want to keep it simple and stick with what I have in mind above allowing me to focus mostly on my guitar playing :-) Charlie's TASCAM DP-24 recommendation seems to have nailed it for me saving me a lot of time.
Last edited by bowlesj; 08/12/16 03:48 AM.
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“I had trouble finding a USB audio device to feed the computer BIAB tracks out to the TASCAM DP-24...” https://www.amazon.com/Peavey-3001370-USB-Audio-Interface/dp/B004A4PSEU Professional grade/inexpensive. Gives you two balanced outputs for the Tascam. Also ideal for running backing tracks through a PA. Regards, Bob
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Bowlesj did a fine jov in his response above.
If the drum/bass are coming from BiaB it is not going to wander .. the other live players might, but nothing you record with is going to fix that.
You said you use a metronome; a BiaB generated drum track is pretty much just that.
All you need to know is the original tempo, whcih os why I suggested opening the BiaB file in RB before importing. Then the tempo is set to match the tracks.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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"Regarding feeding 2 or 3 amps for live listening;
The TASCAM DP-24 seems to only have output for one amplifier. I am assuming I can buy a device to send this signal to more than one guitar amp or P.A. system."
Actually, there are 5.
Stereo Out Jacks unbalanced RCA's
Monitor Out Jacks Balanced TRS with output selectable on the top panel.
Effects Sends (2) Unbalanced TS
Phone Jack Front Panel TRS output selectable on the top panel.
There are several ways you will be able to configure these outputs.
"I had trouble finding a USB audio device to feed the computer BIAB tracks out to the TASCAM DP-24 "
The DP-24 does not have USB recording capability.
Last edited by Charlie Fogle; 08/12/16 03:28 PM.
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For a click track you could also send a MIDI clock to a drum machine playing sidestick and push that drum machine into monitors, though you would also probably have to have in ear monitors or the click would bleed and end up bring on the recording. I am absolutely a tempo Nazi anyway. I HATE when bands can't stay in time.
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Thanks Bob,
for pointing out the Peavey USB device. That's great.
Thanks rharv,
for pointing out that I should open the BIAB file in RB before importing the tracks from the Tascam DP-24 SD-Card. I hope I understand this correctly. If I do understand it correctly I am assuming Real Band can import the live (real person) tracks only from the SD-Card to line up with the BIAB tracks coming directly from the BIAB file and as a result I don't really need to record the BIAB file output during the live performance (just send the BIAB output to the P.A. mix).
Thanks Charlie,
for pointing out all the outputs that the Tascam DP-24 has. Am I correct in assuming Bob's suggested Peavey USB device can resolve this DP-24 shortcoming? (assuming BIAB can send its output to USB). If I understand Rharv's response correctly I would not need to actually record the BIAB output tracks but rather read them later with the Real Band software for merging with the live instrument tracks. In other words the Peavey device buys me a better sounding BIAB output at the P.A. amps.
Final notes:
I am keeping notes from your responses for when I start trying to record these jams. Right now I am writing web page based software to help run/organize the jams and touch wood trying to get some guitar practice in since I will be playing at these jams a lot (a sort of house guitarist with BIAB help). I probably should get this Tascam board and get my act together running it before I get a location for the jams and start them since my two 40 year old "Teac Tascam model-2" mixers have noisy pots. I may try pot cleaner but I am not too confident it can get in there and fix this. Besides learning the DP-24 sound like a lot more fun. I am itching to call the local store hoping to see this mixer but resisting since I need to get this web software done :-) Trying to work mainly on one thing at a time while looking ahead as well.
John
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For a click track you could also send a MIDI clock to a drum machine playing sidestick and push that drum machine into monitors, though you would also probably have to have in ear monitors or the click would bleed and end up bring on the recording. I am absolutely a tempo Nazi anyway. I HATE when bands can't stay in time. Thanks Eddie, I think I know what you mean. You are probably talking about if there is no need for BIAB when all the BIAB parts are replaced with live players. It sounds like a good idea. I don't like it when the players speed up or slow down either. Regarding a situation where a drummer shows up at the jam and a bass player does not I tried an experiment. I had BIAB feed out the bass only and I tried playing along. I had no trouble following it in time even though it does not play exactly on every beat. I also devised a special feed to the drummer using the teac tascam model-2 with the BIAB bass part output going to the left side of a stereo amp and the rest of the instruments going to the right side. The drummer could use the stereo balance to hear as much of the bass part as he wished too. He could feed this to one ear if he wanted.
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If it was me, I'd still record the BiaB tracks. That way you have reference to the generated tracks used at the time. Remember, BiaB will not generate the same thing twice (in theory).
The main reason to open the file first is so you have the Tempo map and Chords all ready/waiting for you. If you don't plan to regenerate anything, you don't need to worry about it.
When you import the 'live' tracks, you will initially have to line up the start point to match the BiaB file, but they will all need the exact same adjustment so it won't be too difficult. Once lined up they'll play through fine.
Example; you hit record on the Tascam 2 seconds before starting the BiaB song .. you'll need to cut 2 seconds off of each live audio track so it lines up with the BiaB file.
You'd want to get rid of that anyways.
Again, if you don't plan to regenerate anything, you don't need to worry about it. That's just how I work when recording live, IF I can't record on the same machine that is doing the click/backing tracks.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
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