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#170270 - 08/14/12 05:00 PM Convert biab styles to yamaha styles? .sty files?
erikhans Offline
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Registered: 10/27/06
Posts: 15
Loc: United States
Convert biab styles to yamaha styles? .sty files?
Yamaha ypg-2.

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#170271 - 08/14/12 05:26 PM Re: Convert biab styles to yamaha styles? .sty files? [Re: erikhans]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 3615
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Can't be done. Completely different formats, and the two "think" about and build the accompaniments in an entirely different manner.

Insights and Incites by Notes ♫
Brand new 2012.5 updates from Norton Music:
  • 2 new style disks for Band-in-a-Box
  • 2 new free (with a purchase) fancy intro/ending disks for Real Band and other DAW's
  • The Ultimate Gospel Fake Disk
  • The Real Rock Fake Disk (plenty of classic rock in this one)
  • The Beatles Fake Disk
  • And an updated Christmas Fake Disk

Hundreds of Free .sgu and .mp3 demos for the above at: http://www.nortonmusic.com

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#170272 - 08/14/12 05:53 PM Re: Convert biab styles to yamaha styles? .sty files? [Re: erikhans]
rikkisbears Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 251
Loc: Australia
Hi Guys
actually for the midi BIAB styles it can be done. I actually did a few for my Korg PA800.
There's a couple of guys who have written a number of software programs fo Yamaha, & from memory, one of these programs will turn a midifile created from the BIAB style into a Yammie style. How succesful, I don't know. How much work is involved I don't know as I've only done them for my Korg.

Unfortunately it's not just as simple as changing the style extension, tthere's a process involved.
_________________________
best wishes
rikki

BIAB 2015
Korg PA3X
Yamaha s950
Korg PA800

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#170273 - 08/15/12 11:02 AM Re: Convert biab styles to yamaha styles? .sty files? [Re: rikkisbears]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 3615
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Perhaps I shouldn't have said "Can't be done" but I should have said "Can't be done well."

I've written styles for BiaB, Jammer, Korg i series, Yamaha PS series, and others.

Here is the difference, and why it can't be done well.

The auto accompaniment keyboards generally play from 2 to 8 measures of music (depending on the keyboard), over and over and over and over again, without any regard to what chord you are playing, how that chord fits in the progression, what chord came before, and what chord is coming next.

BiaB on the other hand can have hundreds of patterns ranging from 2 measures to 2 beats. That's a lot more variety than 8 measures ad infinitum.

Plus, since you enter your chord progression first, BiaB knows what chord you are playing, how it relates to the entire chord progression, and what chords are before and after. The 'genius' in the BiaB styles is that there are several masks in the StyleMaker that take advantage of that. You can program one pattern to appear only on a V7 chord before a drum roll and only in the next chord is a I chord. Then you can program a few others for the same situation and give probability numbers to them so the one with the most personality appears the least and the more generic ones appear more often.

And this is only one situation example. There are masks for the number of bars after the last part marker, the beat of the measure the pattern starts on, the Roman Numeral of the chord, the chord type (7th, minor, half diminished, etc.) and so on.

So for example, the 'stock' ZZJazz style has over 300 patterns. Which 8 would you choose to put into your Yamaha? And ZZJazz has only 3 instruments, drums, bass and piano. How about a more complex style?

I've also gone the other way around, and based BiaB patterns from ideas I have gotten from the Korg i3, Korg PA80, ad Technics KN7000. They of course are not exact copies, but simply inspired by these keyboards. Direct copies would be impossible for the reasons mentioned above. The styles based on these keyboards are clearly marked as such, to differentiate them from majority of styles which I have made "from scratch" using my experience as a multi-instrumentalist (sax, flute, wind synth, keyboard synth, guitar, bass, & drums).

So I took the root ideas of those styles, recorded plenty of variations on those themes into my sequencer, and then imported the snippets into BiaB. So where the original keyboard style had 8 patterns, my styles have hundreds. And where the keyboard style has 2 different rolls, mine usually have 8 or more.

There are of course other things the keyboard styles do IMO better. They often have more than the 5 instruments that BiaB is limited to. This is usually not a big deal, but sometimes it is. They often have more than one bass/drum/comp synchronization patterns that are not possible in BiaB. Plus they have longer and fancier intros and endings.

All in all, I have found that BiaB produces a song with much less repetition and with an output that is much more musically appropriate and 'intelligent'. This is why out of all the software and hardware products I have written styles for, I have built my business on Band-in-a-Box. I'm a musician, I've been a musician all my life, and as far as auto-accompaniment software and hardware products are concerned, BiaB stands head and shoulders above the rest.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫
Brand new 2012.5 updates from Norton Music:
  • 2 new style disks for Band-in-a-Box
  • 2 new free (with a purchase) fancy intro/ending disks for Real Band and other DAW's
  • The Ultimate Gospel Fake Disk
  • The Real Rock Fake Disk (plenty of classic rock in this one)
  • The Beatles Fake Disk
  • And an updated Christmas Fake Disk

Hundreds of Free .sgu and .mp3 demos for the above at: http://www.nortonmusic.com

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#170274 - 08/28/12 07:10 PM Re: Convert biab styles to yamaha styles? .sty files? [Re: Notes Norton]
rikkisbears Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 251
Loc: Australia
Hi Bob,
you're perfectly correct. They don't sound anywhere near as good on a keyboard as they do in Band in a Box.

On my Korg PA800/PA3X they don't sound too bad really. Variations can be up to 32 bars long so it's not quite as repetative as as just having a 2,4,or 8 bar loop. Also the korg has 6 cv's, so seperate patterns can be created for, maj,min,7th,maj7th, dim, aug etc chord types. Out of the various chord types Korg is capable of recording, you can choose 6 & create a patterns for each of them, and depending on what chord you play, the appropriate pattern is chosen. So combined with the 4 variations, you end up with quite a bit of variety & a lot of work , but for the odd style, if the keyboard doesn't have one to suit, it can be worth it.
_________________________
best wishes
rikki

BIAB 2015
Korg PA3X
Yamaha s950
Korg PA800

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#170275 - 08/28/12 07:19 PM Re: Convert biab styles to yamaha styles? .sty files? [Re: rikkisbears]
jazzmammal Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 5430
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Rikki, do you really have a PA3X or is that a typo? If you really have one, I'm insanely jealous. I have the Pa1XPro, not really worth the difference to trade up to a PA2X but the PA3X? That is one heckuva machine.

Bob
_________________________
Win 7 64 bit, AMD Phenom 6 core, 1TB HD, 4 Gigs Ram, Roland Sonic Cell, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank

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#170276 - 08/29/12 01:56 AM Re: Convert biab styles to yamaha styles? .sty files? [Re: jazzmammal]
rikkisbears Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 251
Loc: Australia

Hi Bob,
no, not a typo. I have one. Actually I have both the pa800 & the pa3x. Just never got round to selling the old PA800.

I thought the Pa800 was good, but PA3X is brilliant. I've had it for over a year now. I think the store actually sold me what should have been their demo model, because there were many prospective owners who had to wait months to get theirs. I think I had mine well before the USA owners.

Never owned the pa1x. Actually haven't owned a Korg arranger since the old i2/i3 days, back in 1992
( thereabouts ) Favourite brand was Technics, with the odd Roland, Yamaha or Ketron in between.
Since the PA800, I've become a Korg , devotee. haahaa

If you're thinking of upgrading, could be worth it. 4 fills instead of 2. Those DNC voices are really nice. Guitar Mode tracks sound great. Much more realistic than the midi guitar tracks. I mean they're still midi based but the voicings are more realistic. When recording a guitar mode style track, single notes play different types of strums, ( bit like the macro guitar notes in BIAB ). They even added XG mapped drum kits, which makes converting my old psr styles across to korg, so much easier.

I have No regrets. haahaa

Quote:

Rikki, do you really have a PA3X or is that a typo? If you really have one, I'm insanely jealous. I have the Pa1XPro, not really worth the difference to trade up to a PA2X but the PA3X? That is one heckuva machine.

Bob


_________________________
best wishes
rikki

BIAB 2015
Korg PA3X
Yamaha s950
Korg PA800

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#170277 - 08/29/12 10:37 AM Re: Convert biab styles to yamaha styles? .sty files? [Re: rikkisbears]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 3615
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
I analyzed the PA 80 styles by exporting one chord and multi-chord songs sent to a MIDI sequencer. The PA 80 is supposed to have 16 bar patterns but what it really does it this:

A B C D A B C E
A B C D A B C F

So in a supposed 16 bar pattern, there are only 6 and that's for the best of them.

Another common variation is:

A B A C A B A D
A B A C A B A E

for only 5 patterns.

Most others are

A B C D A B C E repeated

or

A B A C A B A D repeated

And even many

A B A D repeated

And while it may be possible to make different styles for different chords, I haven't found any of the built-in styles that do that.

BiaB not only also lets you write different patterns for different chord types, but it allows more than one pattern for each chord type so you don't get exactly the same thing every time. Plus BiaB has the advantage of knowing the chord changes before you start playing. This allows the style author to have special patterns for special circumstances.

Example, at the end of an 8 bar section, (1) if the last chord of that section is a V7 [G7 in the key of C] (2) there is a part marker after the measure and (3) the first chord of the next section is a I chord [C in the key of C}, BiaB can play a bass pattern that walks from the fifth to the root [G to C in the key of c}]. And that's just one example.

Since the arranger keyboards don't know what the next chord is going to be, they cannot be programmed to do this.

Not that the keyboards don't have their own advantages. Every method has its pros and cons. There are some other things I really like about the arranger keyboards, but in the end I like BiaB better for most songs.

Notes
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

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#170278 - 08/29/12 02:50 PM Re: Convert biab styles to yamaha styles? .sty files? [Re: Notes Norton]
jazzmammal Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 5430
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
I basically agree Notes but my Korg is so simple and so much fun sometimes after I figured it out of course. No setting up anything, turn it on, pick a style and start playing. Great fun for jamming or getting song ideas. Of course I'm a good player with a good left hand so I can really control it properly. And I have to say, check out the new PA3X. I've drooled over it for about a year now. This is only based on internet videos, none of the stores I frequent have had one in stock, they still have the PA2X.

And, Rikki I totally agree with your assesment about Korgs. Years ago I sold pianos and Technic's organs and thought at that time Technics were the best but not lately. It's pretty much between the Korg, Yamaha Tyros and the Ketron. Each one has their fans. The Roland G70 is good, a friend has one but both he and I like my Korg better and mine is just the Pa1X. When i bought my Kurzweil last year I sold my other two keyboards but not the Korg. It's just too cool.

Bob
_________________________
Win 7 64 bit, AMD Phenom 6 core, 1TB HD, 4 Gigs Ram, Roland Sonic Cell, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank

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#170279 - 08/29/12 06:08 PM Re: Convert biab styles to yamaha styles? .sty files? [Re: jazzmammal]
rikkisbears Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 251
Loc: Australia
Hi Bob,
isn't it annoying. A lot of the arrangers I've had over the years I've had to order sight unseen & hope they were as good as the brochure made them sound.
Funny enough, with Korg I was lucky, we live in a small coastal town, but, an hour away , we had a Korg dealer who was probably ecstatic to able to sell their one & only PA3X. I think I bought their one & only PA800 as well haahaa, I'm sure it had been sitting on the shop floor for well over a year.. Top End arrangers aren't that big a seller over here, so nobody much keeps them in stock.

I still have my old psr1500, not worth anything. Don't really use it ,but I do like some of the yammie styles, they're a lot simpler, so again, if I can't quite find the style I want on the Korg, I convert it across from a midifile. I can even do some of my old roland & ketron now if I need to thru VArranger software. It plays yammie, ketron & now Roland styles. Sort of 3 keyboards in one.

I like using both my keyboards & Band in a Box. They're different. Keyboards are fun for realtime playing,
BIAB I think of more as providing a finished song. Even though you can play melody over the top of the backing, it's still not the same as realtime arranger playing.

Actually what is really handy is BIAB providing the left hand chord changes for the keyboard. Great for auditioning styles & variations without having to worry about left hand chord changes.

Quote:

And I have to say, check out the new PA3X. I've drooled over it for about a year now. This is only based on internet videos, none of the stores I frequent have had one in stock, they still have the PA2X.

And, Rikki I totally agree with your assesment about Korgs. Years ago I sold pianos and Technic's organs and thought at that time Technics were the best but not lately. It's pretty much between the Korg, Yamaha Tyros and the Ketron. Each one has their fans. The Roland G70 is good, a friend has one but both he and I like my Korg better and mine is just the Pa1X. When i bought my Kurzweil last year I sold my other two keyboards but not the Korg. It's just too cool.

Bob


_________________________
best wishes
rikki

BIAB 2015
Korg PA3X
Yamaha s950
Korg PA800

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#170280 - 08/30/12 10:15 AM Re: Convert biab styles to yamaha styles? .sty files? [Re: rikkisbears]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 3615
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
As I said in an earlier post, each has their own pros and cons. Here are a few off the top of my head.
  • The arranger keyboards are better for real-time playing, jamming, and arrangements on the fly + Arranger
  • The arranger keyboards tend to have more elaborate intros and endings than BiaB + Arranger
  • The arranger keyboards with their limited number of patterns that always happen in the same places are able to have a tighter lockstep between certain bass and drum patterns + Arranger
  • BiaB can have more patterns and surprise and delight you more + BiaB
  • BiaB knows what chord changes came before and after and can choose the appropriate pattern for the musical situation + BiaB
  • BiaB can have hundreds more individual patterns than the keyboards + BiaB
  • Keyboards usually have the styles tweaked for the voices in the keyboard, but have a limited number of sounds - a draw unless you are playing BiaB on your computer's sound card
  • When you want a couple dozen new styles for the keyboard you have to buy a new keyboard which will cost you a few thousand dollars + BiaB
  • All the keyboards I've 'met' have had only two drum rolls, I've put as many as 32 in a BiaB style + BiaB


I'm sure there will be others that I'll think about as soon as I click "send". Do you have any to add?

They are two different tools and shine in two different applications. I have an old Korg i3 and BiaB. I regularly update BiaB and still have the Korg - floppy disk and all. Because when I play live, I play to pre-recorded backing tracks http://www.nortonmusic.com/backing_tracks.html that I make myself, and I don't bring the keyboard to the gig anymore. Instead I'll be singing and playing sax, wind synth, guitar, flute and/or percussion controller with the tracks.

A friend of mine brings his Technics KN700 to the gig because the styles are so simple and so void of strong personality that the audience doesn't notice the repetition. But he plays keyboards live and has a very good right hand.

Different tools for different situations.

Insights and incites by Notes ♫
Brand new 2012.5 updates from Norton Music:
  • 2 new style disks for Band-in-a-Box
  • 2 new free (with a purchase) fancy intro/ending disks for Real Band and other DAW's
  • The Ultimate Gospel Fake Disk
  • The Real Rock Fake Disk (plenty of classic rock in this one)
  • The Beatles Fake Disk
  • And an updated Christmas Fake Disk

Hundreds of Free .sgu and .mp3 demos for the above at: http://www.nortonmusic.com

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#170281 - 08/30/12 11:22 AM Re: Convert biab styles to yamaha styles? .sty files? [Re: Notes Norton]
krbrook Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 03/21/01
Posts: 129
Loc: Dallas,Tx,USA
I think this was the first BIAB forum question ever.

FYI:
Norton styles are great.
As with the new BIAB Super Midi tracks, it proves that midi is long from being dead.

-Roy
_________________________
BIAB user since version 5

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#170282 - 08/31/12 02:36 AM Re: Convert biab styles to yamaha styles? .sty files? [Re: Notes Norton]
rikkisbears Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 07/04/03
Posts: 251
Loc: Australia
Hi Bob
personally I don't compare the two. I've had both arranger keyboards & BIAB since 1989?? Can't quite remember what year it came out, but I had it for my Atari, so that's many , many years ago. To me it's like comparing apples to oranges, I love both.
Quote:

As I said in an earlier post, each has their own pros and cons. Here are a few off the top of my head.
_________________________
best wishes
rikki

BIAB 2015
Korg PA3X
Yamaha s950
Korg PA800

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#170283 - 08/31/12 11:23 AM Re: Convert biab styles to yamaha styles? .sty files? [Re: rikkisbears]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 3615
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Quote:

Hi Bob
personally I don't compare the two. I've had both arranger keyboards & BIAB since 1989?? Can't quite remember what year it came out, but I had it for my Atari, so that's many , many years ago. To me it's like comparing apples to oranges, I love both.
Quote:

As I said in an earlier post, each has their own pros and cons. Here are a few off the top of my head.







Yes, different tools for different situations. I compare them so I know the strength and weakness of each tool, so that I can apply the best tool for the particular job I have in mind.
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

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