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#378311 - 11/29/16 06:58 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Midi Guitar Sound
StevieB Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/04/16
Posts: 8
I am in the process of writing a Country rock song, and just about have the structure and form of the song figured out. The song features a guitar riff, which I have written in my head, and have then tried to produce in midi using the Piano Roll screen. I want a Rock style, "twangy" lead guitar style sound for the riff. However I am not happy with the guitar sound I am getting, from the Cyote DXI synth which tends to sound halfway between a piano and a highly synthesized pad. I do not play electric guitar so cannot record it, and create it that way. I notice there are no Midi Super Tracks for electric lead guitar so that can't help me, and because I want it to follow a definite pattern I have written, cannot use a Real Track as that will do its own thing.
Just wondering if anyone has had success getting a "realistic" guitar sound doing something similar to what I'm trying?

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#378328 - 11/29/16 07:16 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Midi Guitar Sound [Re: StevieB]
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 16836
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Welcome to the forum. I have no clue as to the answer for your genre, but give it time; we have some fine guitarists here.
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#378345 - 11/29/16 08:04 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Midi Guitar Sound [Re: StevieB]
lambada Offline
Expert

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 1085
Loc: Hong Kong
Not easy. The jazz guitar tends to sound the best in basic midi. Electric's sound dreadful. Real Guitar or something similar with sampled guitar would be the way to go, I guess. There may be a sampled guitar in the BIAB version of SampleTank? Perhaps someone could record the riff for you? Depends how hard. Put a mp3 copy of your riff up for us to listen to and replicate.
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#378362 - 11/29/16 09:38 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Midi Guitar Sound [Re: StevieB]
rockstar_not Offline
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Registered: 01/14/02
Posts: 7256
Loc: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
If you can send me a pm with a link to the following:
1. High quality .mp3 of the song without the guitar part
2. Same as 1 but including your midi track
3. An example guitar tone from a different song

I will take a crack at it. If you like what I did, I will send you back the guitar track by itself in the format of your choice and you decide what you might like to pay for such.

Scott

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#378363 - 11/29/16 09:41 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Midi Guitar Sound [Re: StevieB]
Tobias Offline
Expert

Registered: 03/26/04
Posts: 1556
Loc: Way too close to Palm Springs,...
"Just wondering if anyone has had success getting a "realistic" guitar sound doing something similar to what I'm trying?"
To answer the above question "NO!" and no matter how hard you try you probably won't either. Not unless you are ready to spend big bucks on a synthesizer. Even then, probably would not convince most people that it is a real Twangy lead guitar.
However, if you use a midi wind synth, breath controller or have a top of the line hardware synth and are really, really good with a mod wheel you might get close.
I like lambada's idea, write it out in midi along with the rest of your song, post it up on soundcloud for us to here. Some of us might record the part for you, email it to you, you can import it to a track in your DAW and mute the midi track you made. If you do this you should post the entire song with count in and intro bars and all. That will make the recorded guitar track line up easily once you get it back.
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#378451 - 11/30/16 04:15 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Midi Guitar Sound [Re: StevieB]
Guitarhacker Offline
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Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 5415
As others have mentioned, the answer is, for the most part, "no".

Guitars as well as some other instruments such as horns and reeds, tend to not sound very realistic in Midi. Although that is getting better. However, the synths that can do that are fairly costly and have a learning curve.

For the time being and with low budgets, it's best to ask a friend to help lay down the track.

In this and other recording forums, you can easily find a guitarist willing to play the track for a small consideration. It could be money, swapping skills if you can sing or play another instrument for one of their projects, and some will do it just for grins to have some fun as long as the use is non-commercial.

The best way to garner interest is to get the song figured out, and then post a draft copy in the User Showcase stating that you'd like to have someone play the guitar part. That way, people can hear the tune, decide if it's something they want to do and PM you to get the ball rolling.
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#378654 - 11/30/16 06:53 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Midi Guitar Sound [Re: StevieB]
StevieB Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/04/16
Posts: 8
Thanks for the feedback and suggestions - I guess the only issue with recording the part and importing the song into a DAW such as Real Band would be changing the key at some stage in the future if needed. Would that be possible with a recorded guitar track?

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#378669 - 11/30/16 10:28 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Midi Guitar Sound [Re: StevieB]
Tobias Offline
Expert

Registered: 03/26/04
Posts: 1556
Loc: Way too close to Palm Springs,...
It can be done in a good DAW. But, pitch changing has a negative effect on sound quality. 1 or 2 semitones up or down might be okay. Much more than that and you decide if you still like the way it sounds or not.
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#378708 - 12/01/16 05:09 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Midi Guitar Sound [Re: StevieB]
Guitarhacker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 5415
It's called planning.

Essentially you DO NOT want to change the key. Once you determine the key you want to leave it. Most singers can sing a few steps up or down. I had one who asked me to move the song one half a step. Seriously?

Anytime you move the key you end up with artifacts if you try to use a pitch changer of some sort to do it. Melodyne is the best for this process BUT.... it too will display artifacts for larger moves.

With BB & RB, moving a song to a different key is no big issue. It simply takes a bit of time and effort to render the tracks again in the new key and mix them. If you are using a DAW, it becomes a bit more complicated but not a brick wall to overcome.

There was a free mp3 pitch and tempo changer that did a reasonable job but it only worked with mp3's. You can google it.
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Add nothing that adds nothing to the music

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#378714 - 12/01/16 05:41 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Midi Guitar Sound [Re: StevieB]
Charlie Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 4169
Loc: South Carolina
you may be able to comp your riff in RealBand. Select the lead solo guitar 'sound' you are looking for and generate a track over the chord progression it plays. A realTrack is a finite piece of audio but some RealTracks are quite long. While your original riff may not be played in the audio, it is likely it is hidden there in tiny pieces. RealBand has a handy tool to help you find pieces. It's called multiriff.

Multiriff generates 7 versions from selected audio or an entire track. That is a total of 8 variations including the original. Each variation can be saved to it's own separate track and these tracks can be cut and pieced into a new variation made from these 8 tracks.

Before you get to the above step, you can generate multiple tracks to select from to start your search in multiriff from the variation you selected from the multiple tracks generated over the same chord progression. That narrows your search.

To create variations from your multiple starting tracks, RB allows you to change the chord progression and generate an new track without changing the previously generated tracks. This will provide greater variations to the new tracks. For instance, in your chord progression a C chord could be changed to C2,C7, Cdim, Caug, Cmaj7 or even AM, AM7 or pushes added. Experiment.

There may also be similar RealTracks you can use to generate multiriffs from new audio. In RealPicker look for variations of the RT you chose. There may be a (bluesy) variation, held chord variation or something similar. Search other guitar solos made by the artist of the RT you are using. They may have played a useable RT with another guitar...

The idea is to find 'snippets' of the riff that's in your head and cut and past these snippets from the huge Realtrack audio database into your specific riff. You may or may not get it exact but you should certainly be able to get very close or at least to something useable.

There are easier methods and the methods are likely much quicker as well, but this is a fun way thing to try if you have the time.



Charlie
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#378898 - 12/01/16 02:16 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Midi Guitar Sound [Re: StevieB]
StevieB Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/04/16
Posts: 8
Thanks heaps for the great feedback.

The reason why I would like to be able to change key, is that my voice is quite deep, and truthfully, not all that suited to Country - plus, it's hard to hide my Aussie accent. So, how I've done things in the past is to do an initial demo in a key that I can sing, and if it sounds good to that point, go to the next step and pay a professional singer to do a better quality demo. The professional singer, whether male or female, will usually ask for it to be a couple of tones higher.

I'll try the multiriff idea, and vary the chords - together with cutting and pasting sections into another track. I guess too, that if I put a chord variation on each beat, and maybe nudge the chords a little here and there, I might be able to help things get pretty close to the rythm and timing required. Should be fun trying to figure it out anyway.

If you're interested, my music is at:
https://soundcloud.com/stevebarnesmusic

One of the songs there "Still Blow my Mind" has the type of riff and guitar sound I'm aiming for.That's also my voice on that one.

Steve.

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#378959 - 12/01/16 04:55 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Midi Guitar Sound [Re: StevieB]
lambada Offline
Expert

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 1085
Loc: Hong Kong
Sam smiles is great. Great recording, great voices. I like county with an Australian Accent (Brizzy boy) Nothing wrong with Australian Country. :-)

Actually, all the tracks I've listened to are great, recording quality and songs themselves.



Edited by lambada (12/01/16 10:18 PM)
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#378972 - 12/01/16 05:25 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Midi Guitar Sound [Re: StevieB]
StevieB Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/04/16
Posts: 8
Thanks for listening - and the positive feedback.

Those songs were done in a professional studio. My strenth is writing music, but as I only play acoustic guitar, it's sometimes tricky for a collaborating lyricist to "get" my musical ideas, and sometimes songs don't progress as I feel they could. Also, I can't afford to take every musical idea into a studio. I would like to use BIAB to get demos to say 70-80% of what the finished product could sound like rather than say the 20% that my current acoustic guitar versions are.

Steve.

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#378993 - 12/01/16 06:04 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Midi Guitar Sound [Re: StevieB]
Jim Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 3456
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Steve,

Welcome to the forum and to Band-in-a-Box.

If "When Sam Smiles" is representative of your singing voice then I think you're making a mistake using other singers as I do not find your accent a distraction.

"Chase The Heart" is an interesting instrumental. Is there a story behind the song?
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2018 BiaB (512) UltraPlusPak RB 2018 (Build 5)
Sonar Home Studio - Cakewalk Music Creator 6 - Audacity
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Music at: http://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

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#379016 - 12/01/16 07:21 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Midi Guitar Sound [Re: Jim Fogle]
StevieB Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/04/16
Posts: 8
Unfortunately, When Sam Smiles is not my singing and was sung by a session singer. My voice is on Still Blow my Mind, and as you can hear, is not that great for American Country. The song Chase a Heart was a different take on the lyrics from the song in my list In Tune.I'm still hoping to get a lyricist to wite something for it at some stage

Steve.

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Added: When generating the input file for saving as an MGU/SGU SongMode128= is saved to the input file.
Added: Localization support for 2018.
Added: flyby hints to new dialogs.
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Summary of changes for Build 512 since 510 (Feb 15 2018):
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Fixed: After returning Band-in-a-Box to factory settings the File Open dialog would default to the bb\Data\Lib directory.
Fixed: Choosing a custom chord sheet font would ignore any color choice made in the font selection dialog.
Fixed: Drum names were sometimes truncated in the RealDrums MultiDrums and Quicklist dialogs.
Fixed: Exporting a MIDI file might cause the error, "MIDIConv.exe no found".
Fixed: Mixer changes were not undoable, and would not cause user to be prompted to save their song when exiting.
Fixed: Static in RT2438 and other various RealTracks fixes.
Fixed: StylePicker database various updates. Some styles were displaying the wrong feel (swing/even) in notation. A few styles incorrectly showed missing Drums.
Fixed: The audio latency setting would increase every time leaving the Windows Audio Devices dialog.
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