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I originally started to write this on another thread about Garritan but realized it was trying to hijack that thread. So here is my own: I am also in the market for some sounds other than the ones that come with BIAB.
A little background -- 15 years ago I was heavily into midi (I actually knew Gary pretty well and beta tested the Garritan stuff back then when it was first being developed). I had all kinds of hardware and software to make music... and then got sidetracked (into animation but that's a whole other story).
Anyway, I'm now back to try music making again but rather than going the route I had been pursuing (which was composing using Finale and some Sonar work) I want to use BIAB (I bought the whole thing on the 2.5 disk) and take the easy road (I'm also experimenting with voice to midi but that's beside the point -- my hands are no longer good at keyboards due to age). My first impulse was to get the current Garritan release (general orchestra) and I read this thread.
Okay -- so I dimly remember that GM is, what, general midi mapping? Are we saying that this is what is needed for the easiest use in BIAB? I used to LOVE the Garritan strings and horns (I'm big into orchestral stuff) but is that not possible (or easy) to use with this program? And I'd rather not get any more hardware if I can avoid it (I still have what used to be considered the best midi sound modules out there -- don't even know if I could hook them up anymore as I don't even have a midi interface on my computer anymore).
I guess what I'm asking is this: without spending a TON of money (because I'm not so sure I'll stay in music making: this is an experiment) is there any software (or even somewhat cheap hardware) you guys would recommend to upgrade the sound? Obviously if I get back into music the way I had been I'll spend thousands (I had a midi studio that cost me, back then, at least 2K or 3K). But right now I'm just dipping my toes in, albeit wanting at least decent sound for the trial.
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For MIDI (since RealTracks are audio and don't respond to note changes, only chord changes), for just figuring out what something is going to sound like, the best bet is a General MIDI softsynth. BIAB will send it the correct commands to use the specified instrument on the correct channel (a MIDI port can support 16 channels of MIDI data).
You mentioned Sonar, so if you have Sonar installed, you may be already have the TTS-1 DXi synth; if not, it comes bundled with (what used to be Cakewalk Music Creator - not too expensive - but now called Sonar Home Studio, as well as the bigger brother versions of Sonar). You can get some sounds using the Microsoft sound set, but it's not very good (and the Coyote WT that comes with BIAB just takes those sounds and presents them to you as a DXi softsynth. Better is the Coyote Forte, which is $40 (last I checked). There are also some soundfont based solutions, but this is by far the easiest ways to get some sounds out of BIAB. It'll range from poor (Coyote WT) to alright (the TTS-1 or the Coyote Forte).
Then once you decide you want to work more on the song and make it sound better, you can use something like Garritan (which uses the Aria Player) or Kontakt instruments or IK Multimedia Sampletank. The difference here is that they are not plug and play. They do not respond to the MIDI instrument or channel selected within BIAB. So you have to set the track to use one of them, then go into its interface and select from its instrument list (which won't be the General MIDI standard) and possibly have to match the BIAB output channel to the instrument's input channel. But once done, you can save that and that track will sound much better. You can also load instruments with the new Sforzando player shipping with BIAB. Lots of options, but a little more work, but once saved will sound pretty good.
If you go the Sampletank 3 route, make sure you also get the jBridge utility from PGMusic, since ST3 is 64-bit only.
There are a couple of gotchas that will affect the instruments you use. The Garritan instruments to not respond to volume changes, but instead change volume via the modulation wheel. Also, you will have a hard time getting any vibrato out of the instruments, because while many use the mod wheel for vibrato, Garritan uses keyboard aftertouch, which you would have to program in on a note by note basis using the event list editor.
Also, when using 3rd party libraries, as they get larger, you have to wait for the instruments to load before you get proper sound. This can take anywhere from a few seconds to a minute or longer, depending upon how many tracks and how much data has to get loaded into memory.
Don't know if this helps.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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That does help -- I will need to digest and explore the options you recommend.
I don't have Sonar anymore -- again, this is all a LONG time ago, and I couldn't find the disks I used to install it (back when software came on disks). They couldn't find me in their database, so I don't know if I want to pay the price they want now (if I ever go up into our attic I might still be able to get that install disk, though).
I do have older versions of the Garritan stuff, but I'm not sure how I would even run it now (but that might be something I try). As you might know, computer software older than even five years ago is like something out of the dark ages.
Anyone else with suggestions can keep them coming -- I have a LOT of research to do and this is all helpful.
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Last edited by seeker; 02/07/17 12:49 PM.
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Frank beat me to the punch as I was going to suggest that you get a free DAW to start with. If you get BiaB you will get a free DAW in RealBand. Realband comes with all versions of BiaB.
I would suggest that you get BiaB and work exclusively, at least in the beginning, in Realband. Pick a style and chords and have fun. In Realband you can add as many as 48 tracks so that and Garritan should fill your needs at a very reasonable price. Now I do not use Realband so others will have to help you get started.
As mentioned the better sounding MIDI sound sources cost lots of dollars, need the latest computers with lots of ram and a lot of hard drive space. I started very small then worked up to the better sounds and I would suggest that you do the same.
FWIW - I have an old Garritan Jazz & Big Band program running so your old program may still run.
I hope this helps. good luck.
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Cop, that's not how field sobriety tests work.
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Mike,
First, welcome back to the music world and to the forum. I'd like to answer your question about general midi.
Background:
Look at a photograph of the keyboard player of the late seventies to mid eighties and you likely saw one or more racks of keyboards and sound modules. Each device likely could generate only one to six notes at a time and generate the sound of one instrument. Voltage signals were used to activate and synchronize the different devices but every manufacture developed their own system to tie equipment together. Midi was developed to standardize both a hardware interface and the commands needed for equipment developed by multiple companies to play together.
Soon after the midi standard was released another problem was recognized. When a standard midi file (SMF) or (MID) is played, how do you get the guitar track to sound like a guitar on all equipment? The midi standard was updated to include a list of 128 instruments or sound effects. This is called general midi or just GM for short. The list assigns a midi number to each of the 128 instrument patches. That way a guitar is a guitar as long as a guitar instrument patch number is assigned to the track that has the guitar notes and chords.
One-up being the nature of business the keyboard manufactures expanded the GM list to include additional instruments and soon midi files were developed to play XG or GS midi files in addition to GM files. The midi organization responded with an expanded instrument list called GM2 that includes midi commands to make instrument bank changes.
At the same time keyboard and sound module hardware was developed to play more notes at the same time and to play more instruments at the same time. Thus one keyboard or sound module can replace multiple pieces of hardware.
So a soft synth, hardware sound module like the Ketron SD2, or keyboard can adhere to one or more standard or the manufacture can develop their own standard.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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I'll echo what has been said and hopefully expand it a bit.
The GM General Midi stuff is the sounds in many of the sound cards.... kind of a base line default set of sounds. These sound pretty cheesy for what we do.
Next up is the inexpensive synths like TTS and Coyote. To my ears, there not a big difference between them, but they do sound a bit better than the GM set.
Moving up again you get into the low priced stuff like GPO. Up to perhaps a few hundred dollars. There's a definite improvement over TTS and Coyote but a close listen on good speakers and you can still hear the "midi" aspect to many of the patches and samples.
Moving up again (IMHO) to the low end professional synths..... this is where Kontakt and the other offerings from Native Instruments comes into play. You also find East/West in this group. These synths are high end patches and good quality samples. With them, you can do professional level work. Orchestral compositions, when properly done, are hard to differentiate whether it is sampled or live. They fall into the several hundred dollars each, up to just under a thousand dollars, range.
Now.... yes, there is still a bunch of higher end sampled synths that you can buy but doing so depends on your discretionary budget. Many of these start with 4 figures and go up. It's kind of rare to find these in the hobby/bedroom studio's tool rack due to their price.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Are we saying that this is what is needed for the easiest use in BIAB? I used to LOVE the Garritan strings and horns (I'm big into orchestral stuff) but is that not possible (or easy) to use with this program? And I'd rather not get any more hardware if I can avoid it (I still have what used to be considered the best midi sound modules out there -- don't even know if I could hook them up anymore as I don't even have a midi interface on my computer anymore). Love your username. Ex=Genius. You have to ask yourself one important question: Do you want easy or do you want good? Good requires work, easy is well, easy. As in it's so easy a caveman could do it. But is a caveman going to reproduce a complex orchestral piece that sounds great using midi? I think you know the answer to that one. Easy is GM. GM is for the guy who does not understand midi and just wants to enter some chords and hit Play. That's fine but that's NOT where the pros reside and I think you know that already since you used to beta test Gary's stuff, you're still a pro even if somewhat out of date now. The best synths both soft and hard do not even have a GM soundbank because pros could care less about GM. Too limiting. A GM soundbank only has one or two examples of each instrument while even a semi pro level softsynth like SampleTank 3 has several DOZEN examples to choose from. GM gives you one acoustic nylon guitar for example. ST3 gives you a whole bunch of Martins with different strings, Taylors with different strings and many more. Just for one GM instrument. Same with all the other instruments. GM gives you two acoustic pianos. Standard and bright. Gee, how useful. How about a Yamana concert grand, a Yamaha 7 foot, a Yamaha studio grand, as Yamaha upright? Then under those different types of Yamaha pianos there are controls for closed lid, partial opened lid and full open lid. Same with Steinway and other famous brands. ST3 literally has THOUSANDS of patches. GM? you get a whopping 128 and about 20 of those are special effect sounds like a helicopter, phone ringing and gunshot. The regular price for ST3 is about $350 which includes tons of sounds and then they have separate sound libraries for $50-150 each. ST3 is pretty much the least expensive of the higher quality softsynths. So, how does this work? You're putting together a song. That song has the usual guitar, bass, drums, keys, maybe strings and a soloist. You open up ST3's window and manually select which of those many different versions of those instruments you want to use. To start you can create a default set of those instruments that you can load all at once. Doesn't take too long, later you can change all of them. The good news is you said you still have all your sound modules. All you need then is a basic midi interface. You can get one for like thirty bucks. Then you assign the patches manually from one of your modules similar to how I described using ST3. It's clunkier using hardware and running midi and audio cables but for now you want cheap, that's cheap because you already own them. Personally I would upgrade to a good audio/midi interface so you can plug a mic in or a keyboard and record them directly. Audio/midi interfaces are around $100-200. There are tons of threads here asking about which ones to get, just do a forum search. I can tell you have pro ears even if your former pro mind is out of date. You will not be happy with a $50 basic GM synth like the Forte Dxi or TTS-1. One more thing and that is all the Real Tracks. RT's are amazing but you do not have note level control over them like you do with midi. You could be very happy just using the RT's and wind up forgetting about midi but I have a feeling once you get into this given your background, you'll get into midi again. The best users on this forum are very good with both and that's what it takes to get the best out these programs. Sometimes you just have to jump into something on faith. Talking only goes so far. I think you should just buy the full boat Ultrapak, understand the 30 day money back guarantee and get on it. Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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I muri sono creature... scontrose
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You are all talking about H/W expanders or soft synths. That's OK.
But don't forget to talk music : We don't know what kind of music you plan to produce, but anyway you will need to get good MIDI stuff.
So, you probably will have to tweak all you MIDI tracks. Tweaking a piano part will not be the same as tweaking a trumpet part.
But that you probably know it because you know well Garritan soft synth.
Last edited by John-Luke; 02/09/17 09:40 AM.
Reach for excellence
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When folks are asking about midi and synths, I tend to think they are producing instrumental music and generally with orchestral and synth style instruments involved.
Especially if that are asking that question in this website's forum.
Great point about the genre and style of the music. If you're doing country and rock, you might not find good quality synths for that. If you're doing rap, hip-hop, orchestral cues, movie trailers and such things, yes, midi synths tend to work really well.
Back to country, rock and jazz.... the best bet there for good quality tracks is to use Real Band and the Real Tracks after you compose the tune in Band in a Box. Those tracks sound like live studio quality musicians and are very, very, hard to beat. As was mentioned above, you can not get them to play a melody of your choosing note for note. However, that's usually not an issue.
Buy as far up the PG Music BB food chain as you can afford to buy. The further up you can go initially, the more tracks you can choose from. And more is always better.
If you can play an instrument, you can combine your live parts with the RT's and get some amazing results. Have a listen to some of the songs on my webpage in my signature and also to the folks on the Showcase. See what this program can do and then act accordingly.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Thanks for all the replies -- a lot here to digest (and I will).
The last week or so I've been going through my old software discs (the ones I have left) and found that I had not only the original GPO but Gary's Orchestral Strings (which apparently is no longer sold -- probably folded into something else). I also found I had bought Kontakt but apparently only the "Band" one or something (it has discs for piano, drums, bass, guitar but no orchestral instruments, which is what I really like).
One of things I did a lot was composing my melody in Finale and even orchestrating it there, but now BIAB can take my melody and help me with harmonization, so I'm hoping to do some cross-software work like that. To that end something like GPO5 fits a bit better than most of the other things mentioned here (since I can use it easily in both places). What little background I have in music is rather classical in that I still like to view things notationally and an actually DAW isn't something that I like working with much. I *seem* to remember that Finale had some kind of hook into BIAB but I don't remember much about this (we're talking at least a decade ago and I'm an *old* man :>).
I do have some hardware sound modules, but honestly they are so old the sounds they produce can't even compete nowadays with even inexpensive software solutions (I have the Roland Sound Canvas and a couple of drum ones). I don't want to get into hooking those back up again because I want to keep everything in software now (for a wide variety of reasons, not the least of which is portability).
Anyway, thanks again for the help and if you want to keep the thoughts coming I can assure you I am considering everything written here quite seriously.
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.........What little background I have in music is rather classical in that I still like to view things notationally and an actually DAW isn't something that I like working with much.
I do have some hardware sound modules, but honestly they are so old the sounds they produce can't even compete nowadays with even inexpensive software solutions (I have the Roland Sound Canvas and a couple of drum ones). I don't want to get into hooking those back up again because I want to keep everything in software now (for a wide variety of reasons, not the least of which is portability).
So...all the more reason to use a DAW if you work notationally. Your DAW will allow you to display the tracks in notational view.....lines and staffs. Much of my early music was midi based and while I don't read well, I still preferred the staff view over the PRV. (Piano roll view) Staff view just made way more sense. AND... you can display numerous staffs for multiple instruments, just like a conductor's score. Working in the box is strictly how I work. All my synths are VSTi plug ins and there are no hardware external synths used in my studio. GPO is good, but Kontakt is better and has a wider variety of sound banks and libraries made for it.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Maybe it's just because it was over a decade ago, but I never found a DAW that had a notational view I liked, the way Finale would display things.
I've since looked at Notion and I really like the idea I can jot things down on my iPad/iPhone. At the very least I'll get the iOS app and then perhaps move to the Windows version if I continue to like it.
When you say to use a DAW that does display notation, do you have a particular one in mind? I'd rather not spend a fortune on something I'm really only going to use to control volumes in (for the most part).
Also, anyone here have any experience with the VST Orchestral Suite? It sounds nice as well. I really don't want to start putting together my own VST full of samples (like installing Kontakt and then buying various samples for it) but just want all my stuff in one, so either GPO5 or this Orchestral Suite look to be something that would work nicely for me.
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Maybe it's just because it was over a decade ago, but I never found a DAW that had a notational view I liked, the way Finale would display things.
I've since looked at Notion and I really like the idea I can jot things down on my iPad/iPhone. At the very least I'll get the iOS app and then perhaps move to the Windows version if I continue to like it.
When you say to use a DAW that does display notation, do you have a particular one in mind? I'd rather not spend a fortune on something I'm really only going to use to control volumes in (for the most part).
Also, anyone here have any experience with the VST Orchestral Suite? It sounds nice as well. I really don't want to start putting together my own VST full of samples (like installing Kontakt and then buying various samples for it) but just want all my stuff in one, so either GPO5 or this Orchestral Suite look to be something that would work nicely for me. I think Finale is designed to do notation. So it should handle it batter than a DAW. I don't have Finale but I've heard about it from a few that do. I use Sonar as my DAW and it has a fairly nice, workable, staff view as they call it. You can work in that view with notes displayed properly. Click and drag, set the resolution, add additional track's staff to the view.... you can display and hide musical staves as needed. You can buy Sonar Home Studio or Music Creator 7 for $50. Both should give you a usable staff view. I used MC4 for many years and it had the staff view I mentioned. Kontakt comes out of the box from NI with a ton of samples and sounds. You don't need to buy anything 3rd party unless you need that specific instrument. I bought a 3rd party dulcimer since Kontakt didn't have one. But if you're looking mainly for band and orchestral instruments, you won't need to buy anything other than Kontakt. It has orchestra, choirs (male & female), and band... guitar, bass, drums, piano, etc, as well as some world instruments in it ready to go. When it comes to synths and such things.... having a good one is indispensable, but.... just like me, as I go to work in my business, I have a tool belt with various tools. A pair of pliers and a screwdriver will get many things done, but when I need a hammer, I use a hammer, not the pliers. The same thing applies to this thing we call music. GPO does a fine job, but Kontakt can do it better and Storm Drums can do drums better than either but it doesn't do synth pads very well. See my point? Use the right tool for the job. I have a number of synths that excel at one particular thing. When I need that thing, I pull out that synth and use it to get the job done right.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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For those who own Cubase, 7 or up i think, you can set HalionSonic SE to behave like a GM MIDI module The sounds found there are often quite good, and quickly addressable without too much editwork to get you going. F
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Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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