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#407347 - 04/14/17 01:05 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: BIAB's GUI [Re: texasprenegade]
Charlie Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 4168
Loc: South Carolina
I understand, no problem in agreeing to disagree. Myself and many others happily share our knowledge any time we can help and hope you will give us the opportunity if the need arises.

I will say that you have never actually articulated to us what you can't do with BIAB. Completing the steps to input chords and generate a song is pretty much as complicated as it gets. Midi setup and vst's can be troublesome but are only issues if that is an area you want to use to enhance the sound quality, dynamics or add an effect to a song. Notation can be a mystery but moreso because one needs to understand notation. Everything beyond the point of generating a song are methods, techniques or procedures to make your tracks sound better, be more authentic to an original piece or to function in practice and educational aspects. In other words, they are not necessary to navigate BIAB.

New users of BIAB/RB that join the forum are fresh eyes and ears to forum members and PGMusic. We welcome your insight, criticisms and suggestions. Hopefully, disagreeing with you or you disagreeing with us will not discourage your participation.

Charlie
_________________________
BiaB Ultra Pak 2018:Build 512, RB 2018 Build 5; Windows 7 64 bit AMD Athlon IIX2 215 Dual-core processor; 500GB hard drive; 4GB DDR3 Memory.

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#407366 - 04/14/17 02:12 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: BIAB's GUI [Re: Charlie Fogle]
Pipeline Offline
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Registered: 02/05/15
Posts: 2137

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#407368 - 04/14/17 02:44 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: BIAB's GUI [Re: texasprenegade]
90 dB Offline
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Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4530
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: texasprenegade
I have never in my decades of using and writing software seen a more confusing, disorganized, and cluttered user interface than Band in a Box, and never experienced a greater need for good tutorials. Please, fire the GUI department and start over. Start with mashing together Chordpulse and the Digitech Trio (but in software) -- each is stupidly easy to use. Complexity can be added in a better way than just cramming another button on the front page.





Interesting that the two examples you cite are toys compared to BIAB.

Chordpulse? Seriously? grin

No one here will tell you to RTFM before calling for a complete re-write of the program. They are too nice. I will. It's worth it.


Regards,


Bob
_________________________
Dyslectics Untie!


https://90dbband.bandcamp.com/

https://soundcloud.com/90-db



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#407563 - 04/15/17 04:10 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: BIAB's GUI [Re: 90 dB]
Jim Fogle Offline
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Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 3439
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Originally Posted By: 90 dB

Interesting that the two examples you cite are toys compared to BIAB.

Chordpulse? Seriously? grin

No one here will tell you to RTFM before calling for a complete re-write of the program. They are too nice. I will. It's worth it.

Regards,

Bob


Bob,

The problem with your "RTFM" response is the 2017 Band-in-a-Box user manual is 669 pages in length. Also, the inclusion of a revised manual in each of the eight 2017 BiaB patches released so far this year further complicates matters.

I agree the manual is a valuable, but much ignored, learning resource but very few people have time to learn a 669 page manual.
_________________________
Jim Fogle
2018 BiaB (512) UltraPlusPak RB 2018 (Build 5)
Sonar Home Studio - Cakewalk Music Creator 6 - Audacity
i3 laptop, 64bit Win 7, 8 GB ram, 480GB HDD
Music at: http://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

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#407658 - 04/16/17 06:44 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: BIAB's GUI [Re: Jim Fogle]
VideoTrack Offline
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Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 7735
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle

I agree the manual is a valuable, but much ignored, learning resource but very few people have time to learn a 669 page manual.

I have to agree. All of the information is beneficial. However there needs to be possibly at least two levels of manuals:
1: Most Users - Fundamental settings to get you going and perform typical functions.
2: Experts - Under the Hood. The Nuts and Bolts that hold it all together, how it works, and why.
_________________________

BIAB, RB 2018(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Izotope Prod. Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, KorgX3R, RodeNGT2, AM802mixer, NS40M Studio Monitors, Pioneer Active Mons, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

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#407669 - 04/16/17 07:58 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: BIAB's GUI [Re: Jim Fogle]
90 dB Offline
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Registered: 04/20/10
Posts: 4530
Loc: Florida
John Ford said the same thing , albeit with more finesse. wink

This GUI debate is getting tedious.


Is the UI clunky? Yep.

Is it buggy sometimes? Yep.

Consider this:

There are no other programs that can do what this one can. Period.




“The problem with your "RTFM" response is the 2017 Band-in-a-Box user manual is 669 pages in length. Also, the inclusion of a revised manual in each of the eight 2017 BiaB patches released so far this year further complicates matters.

I agree the manual is a valuable, but much ignored, learning resource but very few people have time to learn a 669 page manual.”




So, you've spent several hundred dollars on a very complex program, and you don't “have time” to crack a manual? I love manuals. You can learn how to use stuff with them. wink



Regards,


Bob
_________________________
Dyslectics Untie!


https://90dbband.bandcamp.com/

https://soundcloud.com/90-db



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#407694 - 04/16/17 12:43 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: BIAB's GUI [Re: 90 dB]
Pipeline Offline
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Registered: 02/05/15
Posts: 2137
I would rather watch a movie than read a book, you do an "RTFM" as a last resort, most people these days would rather watch a video.

"PG was approached by Universal to make a movie about it."
that was a joke, but I think it is really what it needs, a Movie, as in long, covering all aspects like an up to date Video Manual without having to go to Groove3 and and other Tutorials.

"The videos on pgmusic.com are several years out of date and mostly worthless to a new user."

"The first nice attempts pointed me to some videos that I found inadequate."

"What is needed is a series of video tutorials to explain how to use the software. Most people have no trouble doing the basics, but if you delve deeper, Band-in-a-Box can do many other things."

A local video manual rather than video help buttons linked to old youtube videos, I have these below but the are all old ones.

I would sit down and make them but I don't have any where near enough musical knowledge or about all the ins n outs of BB.

You can just use mp4 h264 low bitrate/framerate and they are not much bigger than an audio file.



Attachments
BB-Video-Manual.jpg



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#407697 - 04/16/17 01:41 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: BIAB's GUI [Re: 90 dB]
Jim Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 3439
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Originally Posted By: 90 dB
John Ford said the same thing , albeit with more finesse. wink

This GUI debate is getting tedious. I agree

Is the UI clunky? Yep. Again I agree

Is it buggy sometimes? Yep. We are still in agreement

Consider this:

There are no other programs that can do what this one can. Period.Bob, you are so right with this comment!


“The problem with your "RTFM" response is the 2017 Band-in-a-Box user manual is 669 pages in length. Also, the inclusion of a revised manual in each of the eight 2017 BiaB patches released so far this year further complicates matters.

I agree the manual is a valuable, but much ignored, learning resource but very few people have time to learn a 669 page manual.”

So, you've spent several hundred dollars on a very complex program, and you don't “have time” to crack a manual? I love manuals. You can learn how to use stuff with them. wink Nope. Actually I've read the manual several times cover to cover. I also make it a point to skim through the manual with each revision to find out where the changes are documented. I love manuals too! I wrote manuals for more than a decade and proofread manuals even longer. I can't think of any program that needs a 669 page description.

Regards,

Bob


I don't think we disagree, I just sometimes enjoy having the conversation.

Sincerely,

Jim
_________________________
Jim Fogle
2018 BiaB (512) UltraPlusPak RB 2018 (Build 5)
Sonar Home Studio - Cakewalk Music Creator 6 - Audacity
i3 laptop, 64bit Win 7, 8 GB ram, 480GB HDD
Music at: http://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home

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#407970 - 04/18/17 12:47 AM [Beginners Forum] Re: BIAB's GUI [Re: Pipeline]
jazzmammal Online   content
Veteran

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6404
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
Originally Posted By: Pipeline
I would rather watch a movie than read a book, you do an "RTFM" as a last resort, most people these days would rather watch a video.


Right and this is why society has turned into a bunch of 30 second, no scratch that, 15 second soundbite idiots with the attention span of a 2 year old.

Doctors don't become doctors by watching videos. Engineers don't become engineers by watching videos. I didn't become a tax expert by watching stupid videos. It takes study, good writing skills and experience. EXPERIENCE.

Experience, what a concept.

This is a music program. Anybody here think music is SIMPLE? Is it EASY? Hell no. Music is one of the most complex things there is. Software that can approach pro level quality is by it's very nature extremely complex. There are college degrees in music production. Those courses are all about working with software because that's what every studio in the world uses. Software, software and more software. You want complex, try Pro Tools, Cubase, Sonar. Biab by contrast is quite simple compared to those.

Pipeline you seem to be an expert with a whole range of high end music software. Just how long have you been doing this? How long did it take you to be come this proficient? What is your background that allowed you to become so proficient with both computers and all this music software?

It ain't easy and watching some video tutorials is a decent start to get you going but they won't make you an expert. Reading 619 pages of the manual is what's needed for that. And lots of experience. Did I say that word again? Why, yes I did. Experience.

Forget the GUI and start making some music. When you're stuck post it here and somebody will show you how it's done. .

In the time it's taken for some of you guys but especially the OP, to write this huge gripefest about the GUI you could have created 10 songs and posted questions asking how to make them better.

Bob
_________________________
Win 10 64 bit, Intel 4770, 256 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA1XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

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#408061 - 04/18/17 01:03 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: BIAB's GUI [Re: texasprenegade]
Tobias Offline
Expert

Registered: 03/26/04
Posts: 1554
Loc: Way too close to Palm Springs,...
Huh? Band In A Box has a manual?
_________________________
Does the noise in your head bother me ?

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#408110 - 04/18/17 03:02 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: BIAB's GUI [Re: texasprenegade]
texasprenegade Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/10/17
Posts: 7
Re: videos. If I ask a colleague to help me with software, the most effective way is to watch him do it while he explains what he's doing. That's all a video is. Some prefer that method of learning, not because they have short attention spans but because it's very effective. The get off my lawn comments about the kids these days are irrelevant.

I've read TFM. It doesn't help much. I am putting in the time and don't expect instant gratification. But I've put in enough time to form an opinion about the UI from a beginner's perspective--yes, I'm entitled to an opinion on the UI. Eventually I am learning to do things on my own. But just because I can eventually figure stuff out doesn't mean the UI couldn't be much much better. My complaints are not about doing one specific thing or another. The problem is it takes much longer to figure out than it should and I have to rely on trial and error.

Nobody is saying a complicated program has to be easy at first glance. Examples I gave are those that paid attention to its design for functionality's sake, not because they look pretty.

The gripes about the software have nothing to do with music or music education or anything like that. Learning music theory and learning to use this software have nothing to do with each other. The opinions are all about the functionality of the user interface. A UI is ~supposed~ to help the user, but in my opinion the UI does a terrible job of it. Note I'm not criticizing the capabilities of BIAB at all, just the UI.

Y'all don't have to agree with me. If you like the UI and think it makes sense, that's super. These are my opinions on the UI and the UI only, not the capabilities or complexity of the software.

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#408126 - 04/18/17 03:46 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: BIAB's GUI [Re: texasprenegade]
Pipeline Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/05/15
Posts: 2137
Quote:
"a more confusing, disorganized, and cluttered user interface than Band in a Box"
That sounds about right, I appreciate your input from someone who is new to Biab, this gives the developers information to improve Biab.


I'm right there with you, some users come here with problems they find and say that things need to be improved, but are shot down, put off and never return, others stick around and make these things happen, by nagging, pleading, suggesting new ways, ideas to do things to make BB/RB better.

As said before you bring valuable information from a new user's perspective.
Don't stop, just keep posting ideas and ways you think it can be improved !

It's gone from this,:


To this,:


Then to this that needs your input: ???























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#408150 - 04/18/17 04:28 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: BIAB's GUI [Re: Tobias]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18662
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Originally Posted By: Tobias
Huh? Band In A Box has a manual?


Gotta admit, that made me laugh.
_________________________
Make your sound your own!

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#408162 - 04/18/17 05:08 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: BIAB's GUI [Re: rharv]
MusicStudent Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 5472
Loc: Chicago
Originally Posted By: rharv
Originally Posted By: Tobias
Huh? Band In A Box has a manual?


Gotta admit, that made me laugh.


Love it! I remember I used to keep a copy of the BIAB manual by my bedside - 20 years ago. It was apparently much smaller then.
_________________________
Dan
BIAB2018
BIAB User Map
SoundCloud


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#408173 - 04/18/17 05:41 PM [Beginners Forum] Re: BIAB's GUI [Re: texasprenegade]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18662
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
I kept it in the room directly across from the bathroom ..
sorry, just sayin'
_________________________
Make your sound your own!

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Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3


Moderator:  Andrew - PG Music, PeterGannon 
PG Music News
RealBand 2018 Build 5 Update Available!

RealBand 2018 customers can download the latest free patch update here: http://www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#2018_5

Summary of Changes for Build 5
Added: When generating the input file for saving as an MGU/SGU SongMode128= is saved to the input file.
Added: Localization support for 2018.
Added: flyby hints to new dialogs.
Fixed: Save As with a filename greater than 128 chars could cause an error 123 plus access violation.
Fixed: Rebooting RealBand after a filename with 128 chars was saved could cause an access violation.
Fixed: Pressing the Change button in the Event List Window could result in an access violation if an event was not a Note event.
Fixed: When running in Win 10, and using BBW or PT to generate audio harmonies, an error would occur saying that you need BB 2011 or PT 12 to generate audio harmonies.
Fixed: Midi Thru Method was not being saved to the .INI file. It always reverting to Track-Specific when booting up RealBand, even if the user manually changed the setting to Global in the Midi Thru Settings dialog.
Fixed: Delete All Notes on This Peg menu item in notation window right-click menu was missing.
Fixed: Potential crash on exit (having to do with the DLL attempting to free up a dynamic array that was passed to it).

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 Build 512 Update Available!

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows customers can download the latest free patch update here: www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#512

Summary of changes for Build 512 since 510 (Feb 15 2018):
Fixed: "Load SoundTrack Song" and "Load song with RealDrums Audio" buttons in the Sound Track dialog were not working.
Fixed: After returning Band-in-a-Box to factory settings the File Open dialog would default to the bb\Data\Lib directory.
Fixed: Choosing a custom chord sheet font would ignore any color choice made in the font selection dialog.
Fixed: Drum names were sometimes truncated in the RealDrums MultiDrums and Quicklist dialogs.
Fixed: Exporting a MIDI file might cause the error, "MIDIConv.exe no found".
Fixed: Mixer changes were not undoable, and would not cause user to be prompted to save their song when exiting.
Fixed: Static in RT2438 and other various RealTracks fixes.
Fixed: StylePicker database various updates. Some styles were displaying the wrong feel (swing/even) in notation. A few styles incorrectly showed missing Drums.
Fixed: The audio latency setting would increase every time leaving the Windows Audio Devices dialog.
Fixed: The Download Manager folder name defaulted to 2016 instead of 2018.
Updated: Help file.

PowerTracks Pro Audio 2018 is Here!

PowerTracks Pro Audio 2018 is here! PowerTracks Pro Audio 2018 includes many new features and enhancements:

Windows Audio (WASAPI) driver support. This allows for low latency audio recording/playback without requiring ASIO. Note that this supports 1 stereo input plus 1 stereo output at a time. For multiple inputs/outputs, you should continue to use either MME or ASIO.

ABC Notation format support. You can save a track of notation in a popular ASCII text format to import into other programs, or you can paste this format into a user forum as a way of sending the track (usually the melody and chord symbols) to other users without having to attach a file.

The built-in Audio Chord Wizard detection in the Chords window automatically detects the chords of the song, based on the audio data from all non-muted audio tracks. This works similar to the standalone Audio Chord Wizard, except that it uses the current bar lines of the existing song.

Notation Enhancements:
-X/8 time signature support. This is a special method of displaying 6/8, 9/8, or 12/8 time signatures in the Notation window.
-The Duplicate previous chord in notation right-click menu lets you quickly duplicate the previous chord (group of notes on same peg) without having to reenter it.
-Delete highlighted notes in notation right-click menu lets you delete all highlighted notes.
-Delete all notes on this peg in notation right-click menu lets you delete all notes on the nearest peg that was clicked on.
-You can now enter Section Numbers. Previously, you could enter letters (A-Z) only, but now you can also enter numbers (1-9).

...a full list of the new features in PowerTracks Pro Audio 2018 is available at http://www.pgmusic.com/powertracks.features.htm

http://www.pgmusic.com/powertracks.htm

#TBT - The Beginning of Xtra Styles PAKs for Band-in-a-Box®

We released the much-loved Xtra Styles PAKs in August 2016! This release included 164 RealStyles for Jazz, Country, Rock-Pop, and Singer/Songwriter and worked with any Band-in-a-Box® 2016 or higher UltraPlusPAK, EverythingPAK, or Audiophile Edition!

Xtra Styles PAKs were such a hit... we couldn't stop making them! Since their introduction, we've released 3 more PAKs with a total of over 600 Xtra Styles in all!

Want to hear what other program users are doing with their Xtra Styles? Visit our Xtra STyles Contests forum to hear all the songs submitted during previous song contest we've had: http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=102&page=1

Learn more about Xtra Styles PAKs and listen to their demos at http://www.pgmusic.com/xtrastyles.php?os=win.

Band-in-a-Box® Customer Feedback - Feel The Love!

Check out some great feedback we've received on our Facebook account from program users:

"I have been using Band-in-a-Box for years. It is the anchor of my music gigs as well as my fun in my studio. I have used other software but Band-in-a-Box is my main go to."
-Jack T.

"Love Band-in-a-Box. As someone who played professionally for 20 years and retired from live performing years ago, I still love music. Band-in-a-Box allows me to create fun arrangements which I can sing over or play over. There are THOUSANDS of different variations plus you can enter any chords you like and create any chart. It's also great for creating background tracks for videos and audio content for websites, training etc. And like everything else in the world . . . it may not be right for everyone. For those who love music and don't have the time to shed five or six instruments it's way cool."
-Vinnie R.

"This program has completely changed my playing for the good. I can experiment with playing chords and leads over various scenarios that I can quickly create and change. Love this program. I use it nearly every day."
-Dave R.

"I bought my first version in 1994 and have progressed to 2018 version. I use it to create backing tracks for live music performance. I currently have over 2,000 songs performance ready. If you can and type, and use mouse it will work for you."
-Roger M.

"The premiere reason for me for buying this program; it has given me the freedom to fully complete the foundation for my songs without the confinement of limited minded musicians. After the song concept is complete, it can then be presented those musicians to play as a cover song. Also writing a song with a band gives them partial ownership of your idea... not cool... especially since they may have fought your idea every step of the way.. Every member of an organized band should own a copy of this program to compose or to even give legitimate composition alternatives to the original songwriter."
-Paul V.

Thanks everyone!

Support for ABC Notation Format in Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows!

ABC notation is the simple text-based notation system used by musicians worldwide to store chords, melody, and lyrics of songs. Now with Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows you can open and save songs in ABC notation format!

To save the song in ABC notation format, press the [Save As] toolbar button and choose Save as ABC notation file from the menu. Once opened, select a track that you want to save and choose your other criteria - The [Copy to clipboard] button will copy the file to the clipboard (that you can then paste it into other programs). The [Save as File] button will let you type a name and select the destination in your hard drive.

Band-in-a-Box® Song Title Browser Requests Forum

Have you stumped the Song Title Browser feature in the Band-in-a-Box® StylePicker?

If you tried to search for a popular song and this feature didn't offer you any listings, we'd love it if you'd let us know in our Wishlist forum here.

Posting your requests to this forum really does work - we used it to increase the database with the Band-in-a-Box® 2018 release!

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