Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
You need to be logged in to post on the forum
Topic Options
Index
#410947 - 05/05/17 05:46 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone
Matt Finley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17515
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Disclaimer: I write Brazilian and Latin jazz, and my comments are based on styles in that genre. Nevertheless, I think anyone in any genre should be aware of the default values BIAB uses.

In this post, I will talk briefly about Tone, Reverb, and Pan in BIAB and why you should experiment altering their default values.

Tone
One of the first things I do when starting a song, after choosing the instruments, is to make the Mixer window (in version 2017) wide enough so that I have a slider for Tone control on the far right (instead of just a number). This gives Tone the same 'importance' as Volume, Reverb and Pan as you consider your mix.

The default tone value of 0 for each instrument often sounds 'muffled' to me. The available range [not sure why] is -18 to +18. I leave the drums fairly low, maybe 6, and the bass not much higher, maybe 10, but I raise the guitar and piano up to around 16. This makes these instruments really come alive in the mix.

Reverb
The available range is 0 to 127. To my ears, the default setting of 40 is too high for any instrument. Too much reverb leads to a muddy sound, with instruments too far in the background. [Be aware that you can choose the baseline of how much reverb to apply in Preferences, RealTracks, Reverb Strength, so if you have altered that from 100%, your value of 40 will not equal mine.] Assuming you are using the default, then here are the settings I generally use to give my mix a crispness that is lacking in the default value of 40:

Bass - 0 (in other words, no reverb added)
Drums - 0
Piano - 14 to 20
Guitar - 20+ but nowhere near 40.

Pan
I've noticed that the jazz and Latin styles often have guitar and piano panned on the same side. The default varies; it is NOT always 0 (centered). Although they are panned different amounts by default, I immediately pan one of them to the opposite side of the other. This means using negative numbers (or move the slider to the left) to send an instrument to the left side of the sound stage. Bass, being very hard to determine direction, is generally (correctly) panned to the center (0), and drums should be at or near the center as well. My piano might be 20 right, and my guitar (a lighter sound) might be 40 left, so it stands out.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The great thing is that PG Music has given us an easy way to override the defaults to make the mix sound like you want. Don't settle for the defaults. Try adjusting all three of these things [tone, reverb, & pan], as well as volume to get the instrument sounds 'right' before you proceed with composing, arranging, or editing. It might take some getting used to, if you haven't altered these settings before, but you'll be happier with your results, and your mix should 'pop' better.
_________________________
BIAB 2018 Win Audiophile; [& 2018 Mac UltraPak]. Software: Mixcraft, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & monitors.

Top
#410958 - 05/05/17 06:32 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: Matt Finley]
Charlie Fogle Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 4523
Loc: South Carolina
Good info. Thanks for posting.
_________________________
BiaB Ultra Pak 2018:RB 2018 Build 5

Top
#410975 - 05/05/17 10:29 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: Matt Finley]
lambada Offline
Expert

Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 1189
Loc: Hong Kong
Interesting, I must admit, I've started adding much more reverb to my solo instruments - some up to 90! Most I leave at between 0 and 20. I might need to revisit my solo instruments. I had no idea you could edit tone (which i generally ignore) with a fader. I definitely need to revisit this on my mixes. I've found panning left and right very helpful. I have the drums and bass at either -5, 5 or -10, 10. I usually put the other instruments at - or + 20/25 or 35 depending on how many. I keep the solo instruments at 0. I also set the drums to volume 90 and one at a time match the other instruments to it (eg bass 88, 86 or 84). Some solo instruments have to be lowered a fair bit. I find some rock n roll styles are way too loud in the overall mix, so a few songs I set at -2 - -5 on the song settings. Generally I leave them at 0. One style that I've used I had to put up to over 5. Not sure why. I play/stream live using the .mgu files. I also have Neutrina running on most tracks. I steam the whole thing on automatic via jukebox in the file special option. All the settings I use I have learnt from reading this forum, so all honour goes to you guys! All failings are based on the fact that I base my settings on my ears! grin


Edited by lambada (05/05/17 10:32 PM)
_________________________
Windows 10 Home insider preview (Evaluation) Build 17083
BIAB 2018 (Build 510)
Intel(R) Core(TM), i3-4160, CPU @3.60 GHz RAM 16 GB, 64 Bit X64-based processor
Zoom UAC-2 (USB 3 interface-built in midi)
VoiceLive 2, Nova, Sputnik Valve Condenser Mic

Top
#410983 - 05/06/17 12:32 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: Matt Finley]
LtKojak Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/26/11
Posts: 232
Loc: Milano, Italy
Thank you for the tip, Matt!

I've never even knew of the existence of a "tone" slider.

Much appreciated!

Yours very truly,
_________________________
Pepe aka Lt. Kojak
Milano, Italy
https://soundcloud.com/theodore-kojak/tracks
Hy-Bro Test Sound Files

Top
#410985 - 05/06/17 12:54 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: LtKojak]
John-Luke Offline
Expert

Registered: 05/18/03
Posts: 1260
Loc: France
Very good tips indeed.

But raising the guitar and piano up to around 16 is rather a high value which can look excessive. Anyway, it's mainly a matter of personal taste.
_________________________
Reach for excellence

Top
#410991 - 05/06/17 03:08 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: Matt Finley]
VideoTrack Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 8302
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Good tips Matt, thanks. Maybe one for the Tips and Tricks section?

_________________________

BIAB, RB 2018(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Izotope Prod. Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, KorgX3R, RodeNGT2, AM802mixer, NS40M Studio Monitors, Pioneer Active Mons, AKG K271 Studio H'phones

Top
#410999 - 05/06/17 05:01 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: VideoTrack]
MarioD Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 11332
Loc: Hamlin NY
Originally Posted By: VideoTrack
Good tips Matt, thanks. Maybe one for the Tips and Tricks section?



Yes this should be in the Tips and Tricks section. I never knew about the tone slider either. Why did PGMusic hide it?

I do all of this in my DAW Sonar and the type and amount of reverb depends entirely on the song, as Matt said. If I'm trying to emulate an orchestra setting in an opera house I would use a Cathedral type reverb with a fair amount of reverb. But if I was trying to emulate a crowded jazz lounge I would choose a small room and very little reverb. I will add that adding a small amount of reverb to horns, either MIDI or RTs, adds a lot. YMMV.
_________________________
My mind is like my Internet browser: 19 tabs open, 3 of them are frozen & I have no idea where the music is coming from.

64 bit Win 10 Pro - the latest BiaB and RB - Roland Octa-Capture audio interface - a ton of software and some hardware.

Top
#411000 - 05/06/17 05:10 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: Matt Finley]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4430
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
Good advice, Matt.

Little adjustments can make a very big difference.

Notes
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Top
#411078 - 05/06/17 05:26 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: Matt Finley]
Hugh2 Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 04/24/16
Posts: 232
Thanks thats very useful Matt .
So ive noticed this recently as I was listening to some songs using Ozone (mp3) and when I used the side option I obviously could hear only the far sides of the song but the lead vocals were still clear whereas a song I mix the vocals are almost none existant on the sides.My question Do producers delibrately pan a lead track far right and another far left as well as in the centre?
Hugh


Edited by Hugh2 (05/06/17 05:27 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling

Top
#411083 - 05/06/17 06:16 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: Matt Finley]
Noel96 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 13525
Loc: Australia
Thanks for taking the time to put this together and to post it, Matt. You've given me a few things I need to try when I start working on my next song.

Appreciate it,
Noel


_________________________
LINKS TO MY BIAB/RB SONGS


Top
#411140 - 05/07/17 05:23 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: Matt Finley]
Notes Norton Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/06/00
Posts: 4430
Loc: Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.
As a bit of a traditionalist, I pan the bass and kick drum in the middle. With a wavelength longer than the width of your head, you are going to hear them there anyway.

Vocals, always centered unless there is a good reason to put it elsewhere.

Instruments that share the same audio frequencies I like to pan to different sides. How much? It depends.

I also like to adjust reverb/echo according to the song. For some songs I like to put them all in the same room, but for others I realize that a guitarist might dial in different FX settings than the synth player or the vocalist.

When on the gig, I pan everything center. Only a few people in the entire room will be in the stereo sweet spot, and some will be near one channel or the other. I remember eating lunch in a restaurant, and if seated either in the front or the back of the room, all you could hear was one stereo channel. At times that sounded weird, like not being able to hear the lead guitar, just the lead guitar's reverb.

For tone and all of the above, I just twiddle the virtual or actual knobs/sliders and let my ears be the judge.

Insights and incites by Notes
_________________________
Bob "Notes" Norton smile Norton Music
http://www.nortonmusic.com

100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove
& Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Top
#411171 - 05/07/17 07:56 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: Notes Norton]
Hugh2 Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 04/24/16
Posts: 232
Hi Bob,
Thats interesting about panning centre for gigging,never thought about it.
Just to say I bought some of your styles from NortonMusic and they were fabulous.If ever you get the time could you do some more ABBA styles.The one I got was great thanks,Hugh

Top
#411176 - 05/07/17 09:00 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: Notes Norton]
Tony Wright Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 600
Loc: Waterloo Ontario Canada
Originally Posted By: Notes Norton

When on the gig, I pan everything center. Only a few people in the entire room will be in the stereo sweet spot, and some will be near one channel or the other. I remember eating lunch in a restaurant, and if seated either in the front or the back of the room, all you could hear was one stereo channel. At times that sounded weird, like not being able to hear the lead guitar, just the lead guitar's reverb.


This why I have never understood the value in having anything panned other than center. Especially since many performers will be using mono PA systems. Why do PG produce styles with instruments panned left or right? How can they decide how the user wants to set up their sound stage?

On the other hand I always play my keyboard piano sounds panned fully left and right, not for a stereo effect but because the piano sounds are terrible if you sum them to mono ahead of the speakers.

Tony

Top
#411189 - 05/07/17 12:46 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: Matt Finley]
Matt Finley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17515
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
I tend to think of PG Music's settings as suggested starting points, nothing more.

I'm glad they use some panning off-center, just because if you don't change it, it sounds better than if it started as mono. For special purposes like Notes is describing, changing the settings is easy.
_________________________
BIAB 2018 Win Audiophile; [& 2018 Mac UltraPak]. Software: Mixcraft, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & monitors.

Top
#411195 - 05/07/17 02:24 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: Matt Finley]
jford Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 10612
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
Quote:
Why do PG produce styles with instruments panned left or right? How can they decide how the user wants to set up their sound stage?


Actually, there are no panning settings in styles. Default behavior for panning depends upon your settings under the "Pan" column in the Preferences "Channels" tab screen.

If you click on the "Overrides" tab under Preferences, you can uncheck the box for pan to ignore loading that setting for any loaded song.

If you save your songs with everything centered, it is not panned.

That being said, there are some stereo RealTracks instruments for which you can adjust the pan to slide the center of the stereo field left and right, but yes those specific tracks are recorded stereo.

But pan settings are a factor of the settings made under Preferences, or in the Mixer and then saved, not in the style definition.
_________________________
John

HP Win10Pro-64, 8GB
ASUS Win10Pro-64, 16GB
HP Win7Pro-64, 8GB

H/W-Behringer U-Phoria UMC404HD, Casio Kbds
S/W-BB/RB2018/Sonar/Reaper/Studio One/Samplitude/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Noteworthy/NI Komplete/Halion/Garritan/IK
Web-http://www.sus4chord.com

Top
#411197 - 05/07/17 02:33 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: Matt Finley]
Matt Finley Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17515
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Wow, John.

I'm not sure if my system does 'obey' those settings in Preferences, Channels. If it did, I would have refined the settings about two decades ago. I have numbers in there that aren't zero, yet those numbers are not chosen when I load a style.?

However, thinking further, it MAY explain why I think some instruments have a natural emphasis on one side or the other. In other words, if the Preferences, Channels, Pan is set to -20, then I set the Mixer for that instrument to zero, I hear the instrument on the left? More experiments to follow...

Thank you!
_________________________
BIAB 2018 Win Audiophile; [& 2018 Mac UltraPak]. Software: Mixcraft, Adobe Audition, Ozone, Encore; Win 10 64 Pro. Hardware: custom i7, 16 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Focusrite 18i20(2), TCE Finalizer, Behringer X-Touch, Adam sub & monitors.

Top
#411202 - 05/07/17 03:58 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: Matt Finley]
jford Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 10612
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
Well I looked at every screen I could find in Stylemaker and did not find any settings for pan. Could have missed it though.

I do know that when you first load a brand new BIAB on a computer, it notices that you are not set for stereo and asks if you want to make the default stereo pan settings. You can say yes or no.
_________________________
John

HP Win10Pro-64, 8GB
ASUS Win10Pro-64, 16GB
HP Win7Pro-64, 8GB

H/W-Behringer U-Phoria UMC404HD, Casio Kbds
S/W-BB/RB2018/Sonar/Reaper/Studio One/Samplitude/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Noteworthy/NI Komplete/Halion/Garritan/IK
Web-http://www.sus4chord.com

Top
#411255 - 05/07/17 09:01 PM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: Matt Finley]
J. Larry Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/09/07
Posts: 495
I’m a stereo person all the way on styles, with bass and drums in the center. Everything else is to taste, as someone said. Since PG Music is fond of using experienced professionals in creating Real Tracks and solos, how about employing, or consulting, with known “mixer/mastering” personnel when creating new styles? Such persons might be able to shed light and offer good suggestions about styles that will make them even more authentic and professional-sounding.

Top
#411275 - 05/08/17 02:06 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: Matt Finley]
Jazzman Offline
Expert

Registered: 01/10/02
Posts: 1460
Loc: UK
Hi Matt

Thanks for your valuable post and I have been using BB since 1991 and never even looked at Tone and its effect

Also pleased that you posted it on the main forum as I probably would not have seen it elsewhere

The 0 reverb setting on bass and drums does make them sound cleaner and crisper

Thanks again for your considerable help and guidance

Brian
_________________________
BIAB - RealBand - 2018
Windows 10 64

Top
#411311 - 05/08/17 06:19 AM [Band-in-a-Box for Windows] Re: Tip: Don't forget to adjust Reverb, Pan, and especially Tone [Re: jford]
Tony Wright Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 02/10/01
Posts: 600
Loc: Waterloo Ontario Canada
Originally Posted By: jford
Quote:
Why do PG produce styles with instruments panned left or right? How can they decide how the user wants to set up their sound stage?


Actually, there are no panning settings in styles. Default behavior for panning depends upon your settings under the "Pan" column in the Preferences "Channels" tab screen.

If you click on the "Overrides" tab under Preferences, you can uncheck the box for pan to ignore loading that setting for any loaded song.

If you save your songs with everything centered, it is not panned.

That being said, there are some stereo RealTracks instruments for which you can adjust the pan to slide the center of the stereo field left and right, but yes those specific tracks are recorded stereo.

But pan settings are a factor of the settings made under Preferences, or in the Mixer and then saved, not in the style definition.


I cannot get this method to work when I try to reset all songs to zero panning.

The following method, however does work, at least for a full folder of songs that is currently in use.

1) set all panning to zero for current song.
2) right click Master then select "save current mix as default"
3) select File/File Utilities/Change all songs in current folder to default mix.

BIAB then cycles through all the songs in the current folder and changes the mix to the new default.

Tony

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


PG Music News
#TBT - The First Audiophile Edition

A blast from the past... the introduction of the Audiophile Edition with Band-in-a-Box 2008.5!

The first Audiophile purchase included the WAV files for all the RealTracks & RealDrums that were available at that time: RealTracks Sets 1-9 and RealDrums Sets 1-20. It shipped pre-installed on a 250GB USB hard drive - take a look...

Wondering what else was introduced with Band-in-a-Box 2008.5? Click here to see the "Band-in-a-Box 2008.5 New Features List."

RealBand 2018 Interactive Online Upgrade Manual Available!

The newest addition to our Online Manuals support page is the RealBand 2018 New Features Guide!

Just like the other Online Manuals now available on our Support page, this Upgrade Manual can be easily navigated by chapter, or using the main Table of Contents window!

New Interactive Online Band-in-a-Box® 2018 Manual for Mac!

We've added an Online Manuals option to our Support page, where you can access an interactive online Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Mac User's Guide!

The Online Manual can be easily navigated by chapter, or using the main Table of Contents window! Also available on our Online Manuals page is the PDF files for Band-in-a-Box® 2017-2018 Full manuals & Upgrade manuals.

User Feedback - Run as Administrator

Our Forum is a great resource for all your Band-in-a-Box questions (and a GREAT place to connect with other program users!)

Among the many forums available, we have a User-to-User Tips & Tricks forum - perfect for sharing your own technical tips and tricks for any PG Music product!

Like the recent post by jford: You Should Run BIAB and RealBand As Administrator!

Xtra Styles PAK 5 Song Contest - Over 25 Entries!

We recently launched an Xtra Styles PAK 5 Song Contest with 4 prizes of $150!

So far, there are more than 25 entries! Have a listen to these entries and submit your own song here.

Contest Rules:
-You must own Band-in-a-Box® 2018 along with one or more of the Xtra Styles PAK 5 packages (Country, Jazz, Rock-Pop, MIDI)
-The song you submit must be your own original composition. This could be simply typing in chords to your song and pressing play, but you may also add additional instruments, solo, and/or melody.
-Public domain songs will be accepted.
-Multiple entries are permitted.
-Submit your song to the "Xtra Styles 5 Contest" forum, before the deadline. (This contest runs until September 30th)

For complete information on this contest, click here.

New Online Band-in-a-Box and RealBand Manuals

Do you hate digging around for manuals as much as I do? Now you can access the most recent Band-in-a-Box® and RealBand manuals with just a few clicks on the new Online Manuals section of our website.

The PDF manuals for version 2017 and 2018 are available now. Plus, we're adding online versions of these manuals too! The Band-in-a-Box® 2018 Windows User's Guide is complete, and the Mac User's Guide will be coming very soon. We're even adding a search feature to make it even easier for you to find features that you are looking for - stay tuned!

You Could Win $150 PG Bucks with our Xtra Styles PAK 5 Song Contest!

Want to WIN $150 PG Bucks? Join the entries already submitted into our Xtra Styles PAK 5 Song Contest! When the contest closes on September 30th, we will be picking 4 winners (1 per genre)!

What you need:
-Band-in-a-Box® 2018 UltraPAK or Audiophile Edition
-Xtra Styles PAK 5 Windows | Mac
-a song written using one of the 160+ fully-mixed Styles included in your Xtra Styles PAK 5 purchase.

Complete contest rules list here.

Forum Stats
27961 Members
57 Forums
53921 Topics
445306 Posts

Max Online: 2434 @ 11/14/17 12:37 AM
Newest Members
goldensleather, davidjeams, lazeguy, andymillermusic, Son Lee

27961 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Alyssa - PG Music 506
David Snyder 140
Al-David 140
MarioD 122
Deryk - PG Music 114
Janice & Bud 106
Matt Finley 101
Jim Fogle 97
VideoTrack 94
Kent - PG Music 92
Today's Birthdays
gfclef, Hans Hess, Henry Nurdin