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#438092 - 11/14/17 09:51 PM [RealBand] How to get a VXT or DX to work for only a single track?
cooltouch Offline
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Registered: 12/20/11
Posts: 186
Loc: Houston, Texas
Well, I'm finally starting to use RB. I have the latest version that came with BiaB 2017. Received wisdom is that, once you've gotten a tune worked up to a sufficient point in BiaB then it's time to bring it in to RB and do the fine tuning/tweaking to the mix there. So, right off, I see that none of my VXTs and DXs have gotten carried along in the switchover. Or at least so far. I've only tried a few tunes yet, so it's still early.

But anyway, I have sorta-kinda figured out how to set up a VST in RB, but what happens is every MIDI device gets the changes, not just the one I want it for. For example, say I'd like to add the DX for reverb to my melody track. So I click on the little "fx" button on the track panel and up pops the DirectX/VST window. I've selected Coyote because I'm just using one of the MIDI voices for now, and then in one of the lower slots I select Reverb. Suddenly everything is Reverby. And I check the fx's on all the other MIDI tracks and they also all have Reverb set up on them. And it is set up identically to the track I originally set it up for. It gets worse if I want to select a VXT. Suddenly every MIDI instrument has this same VST selected.

I don't want this. And even if I did, I'd want to be able to control them independently from each other.

Why is it that something that appears to be so logical and straightforward is anything but? BiaB's been putting me through the ringer and now it's RB's turn. This is getting really old really fast.

Oh, and before composing this note, I looked through all the available help videos here at PG Music on RB, hoping to find at least one that deals with setting up DXs and VXTs. Couldn't find any.



Edited by cooltouch (11/14/17 10:28 PM)
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#438218 - 11/15/17 04:07 PM [RealBand] Re: How to get a VXT or DX to work for only a single track? [Re: cooltouch]
rharv Offline
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Here's what is catching you.
When you use the BiaB tracks you are using a single synth that is shared by all the BiaB tracks.

First step;
Use the right-click Track menu to make all the BB tracks regular tracks. This is so they now behave more like RB tracks than BB tracks .. generating and other features will then behave differently.
When you open a BiaB file in RB this is necessary to make the tracks behave more like a DAW.

The second step is to go to the desired track. Select it, then go to the right-click menu and select Port.
Assign it to a separate VSTi Port (softsynth), then assign another instance of the synth to that track using a different Port (and using the top slot in the resulting options). Now you have 2 separate instances of the same synth being used.
All the BB tracks will be assigned to the Default Synth Port, so applying effects to that synth affects all the tracks using that instance of the synth, doing the above step separates them to different instances (and thus different paths).

It all makes sense once you think about it, but this has caught many of us before.

The key is to assign the desired track to it's own instance of a synth so it doesn't affect all the other tracks trying to use the same synth.

Each track goes to a Port
That Port can be any hardware or softsynth (16 of each available)
The Port assignment sends the track info to the desired path (Port or Output path)
In RB the audio FX can be assigned on that path (only if it is a softsynth Port) that affect the audio output of the selected softsynth/Port. If you apply the effect to a synth all tracks are sharing, well they all get to share it. This is sometimes a good thing.
If you want it to affect only one track, you can't share that unique path with other tracks.
You have to give it its own instance of that synth so it doesn't affect all the other tracks.


Attachments
RBPorts.jpg




Edited by rharv (11/15/17 04:34 PM)
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#438259 - 11/16/17 03:42 AM [RealBand] Re: How to get a VXT or DX to work for only a single track? [Re: cooltouch]
cooltouch Offline
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Registered: 12/20/11
Posts: 186
Loc: Houston, Texas
Hi rharv and thanks very much for your reply. I'm sorry to report that, at this point, it isn't making much sense to me at all. And I have a DAW background -- Cakewalk Pro Audio and Sonar and more recently PreSonus's Studio One 3. Now, I'll admit that I frequently get confused with Sonar because of its complexity, so I'm not unused to being stumped.

Okay, I made all BB tracks regular tracks. But where you lost me was at the Ports part. I called up a song that I had saved as a .seq file since I was planning on doing a fair amount of work to it in RB. Clicked on the Melody track, which is the first one I'd like to associate with a synth. Did the right click thing and found Port:17>>CoyoteWT<< in the menu bar. Ran my mouse over that and a dropdown appears with 16 Microsoft GS Wavetable Synths, then the >>CoyoteWT<<, which is indicated with a dot, then 16 DXi/VSTi Synths followed by another >>CoyoteWT (Default)<< that has not been indicated. Below that are two more menu choices, which open up their own dropdowns: Load DXi/Vsti Synth into unused Slot, and Load DXi/VSTi Synth into specific Slot. CoyoteWT is selected in both cases.

So what I did was click on one of the DXi/VSTi tracks, which generated a DirectX/VST Window -- a familiar sight at least. So I plugged in what I wanted as far as DX's go, and I was gratified to hear that only the melody instrument was being "affected" by these effects. I went ahead and configured another VST for the melody, but I am using Coyote as a synth for two other instruments, assigning it to a separate track number with each and each is being affected by its effects separately. This is what I was trying to do at the outset. So that's mission accomplished for me. But I don't understand what you have going on by assigning another instance of the synth to that same track. Why?

This may make sense to you, but right now to me, it's about as clear as mud. So I reckon I'll be doing stuff by rote for a while in RB. Till I get a feel for it -- hopefully.
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#438335 - 11/16/17 11:10 AM [RealBand] Re: How to get a VXT or DX to work for only a single track? [Re: cooltouch]
jford Offline
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It all depends upon the synth you select. Some synths allow you to connect multiple tracks to them and the instrument played is determined by the channel the track is sending it. Coyote is like this, so you only need to have one instance of it. Cakewalk Dimensions Pro can support of to 4 channels, but is really used for layering up to four sounds. In that case, you would put a separate instance of Dimension on each track (when you do this, you will see Dimension listed on multiple ports). If you selected just one instance of Dimensions on multiple tracks, and changed the instrument assignment, it would apply to all the tracks.

So again, you have to understand the synth you are using and what it expects from the DAW.

For what it's worth, TTS-1, Coyote WT, Coyote Forte, Synthfont, and a handful of others only require a single instance to play up to 16 channels of MIDI data.

Others may and do require separate instances.
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#438398 - 11/16/17 05:29 PM [RealBand] Re: How to get a VXT or DX to work for only a single track? [Re: jford]
rharv Offline
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Posts: 18673
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John,
I think you are missing this part;
Yes the synth can play 16 channels with different instruments on each .. BUT if all of those 16 channels are assigned to the Default Synth, and you have an Audio Reverb plugin after it (due to the instance of the synth), all of them will have reverb.

The OP wants different effects for different 'Tracks', so these separate Tracks may need separate synth instances.

RB uses 'Ports' to send the signal to a certain Synth/Effect path.
If you want different effects for a given track it needs it's own 'Port' assignment (new instance of the synth with different AUDIO FX after it) so the FX only affect that Track.

Example:
If Tracks 1-8 are all assigned to a given Port (say the Default synth Port), then putting an Audio Reverb effect after the synth, say in slot 2-4, will affect all the other Tracks using that default Port. This can either save resources or be a hindrance.

To make a given track different, it needs to have its own Port (or path) so the Audio FX that follow that synth instance (or Port) are handled differently.

I suppose a drawing would help (and I think I've posted this before), but the flow is:

Track goes to Port (1 thru 32)
Port assigns synth (hardware or software) if MIDI.
Or it can select the Audio Out Port, if an Audio Track.

Audio FX follow the synth assigned to the selected Port (if a softsynth/MIDI track).

So selecting a different Port, then assigning a new instance of the desired synth to the new Port creates a new 'path' .. and then you can assign different Audio FX to that path (after that instance of the synth of course) to make them different.

I'll see if I can clarify with images if needed.
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#438466 - 11/17/17 07:04 AM [RealBand] Re: How to get a VXT or DX to work for only a single track? [Re: cooltouch]
cooltouch Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/20/11
Posts: 186
Loc: Houston, Texas
Yes, rharv, that's what I discovered. The Coyote "default" selection results in all tracks getting the same DX sounds. If I assign Coyote to a track then only that track is affected. And that was what I was after, so I'm good now.

John, I'm familiar with Cakewalk's TTS-1 and it behaves sort of similarly in Sonar. It has to be assigned to a specific track. Only difference with it is, if it isn't assigned to a specific track, it doesn't do anything but just sit there.
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#441779 - 11/30/17 05:19 PM [RealBand] Re: How to get a VXT or DX to work for only a single track? [Re: cooltouch]
jazzmammal Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 6416
Loc: Redondo Beach, Ca.
There's different ways to handle this. I use Sampletank 3. It has a full effects suite so there's none of this going on, if I have a guitar on track 4, channel 4 (I try to keep them the same) ST has it's own guitar cabinet sims and other effects and it only goes on that channel.

The other possibility is to not bother with any effects until you render your midi tracks to audio. Now your audio effects plugins are used. You set up different ones for each track. I know it's fun to keep it all in midi and mess around with stuff but as you're finding out it gets confusing.

You're experienced enough I suspect you've done a few studio sessions over the years. They usually record you dry and feed some effects into your headphones if you need that but the actual recording is dry and unaffected. Adding effects is for the mixdown. The exception was lead guitars, they have their amps and pedals and want that sound on the recording.

But over the last few years I've read that guitarists and bass players use so many sims it changes how recordings are done. Some will not have an amp on stage, they go direct through the PA and/or recording console using an amp sim and they can just push a button and get an entirely different sound without screwing around with amp controls or pedals. The stage or monitor sound is effected but the recording is dry because the engineer and/or the player can mess with all the different sims later. This is exactly why many guitarists on the forum requested DI guitar Real Tracks so now you see lots of them, adding these different amp sims can drastically change the original dry recording.

Of course none of this is written in stone, it's called whatever works for you. But I find it fun to occasionally read some recording forums to get an idea of what's going on lately.

Anyway, after I render my dry tracks to audio I do a Save As so as not to change the original midi or SEQ file in case I want to go back to it.

Bob
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#441912 - 12/01/17 01:44 PM [RealBand] Re: How to get a VXT or DX to work for only a single track? [Re: cooltouch]
jford Offline
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 10186
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
Quote:
If Tracks 1-8 are all assigned to a given Port (say the Default synth Port), then putting an Audio Reverb effect after the synth, say in slot 2-4, will affect all the other Tracks using that default Port. This can either save resources or be a hindrance.


Okay, I'm going to have to play with this some. I don't understand why, if the effect comes after the synth sound is generated and is specific to just that track (versus a bus effect) it should effect the synth sounds on the other tracks, just because they are sharing a multi-timbral synth. How is the generated sound from the other tracks getting routed to that effect?

Just trying to understand.
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#441949 - 12/01/17 04:08 PM [RealBand] Re: How to get a VXT or DX to work for only a single track? [Re: cooltouch]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18673
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
You misunderstood my post I think .. what I was trying to say is, if you add an audio effect to any MIDI track using the default synth, all the default synth tracks inherit this .. as the audio going out of the (shared) synth is effected after the synth. So it can't be on one MIDI channel, because that channel comes out of a synth using many channels, and that output is what gets the next effect. Can't separate a MIDI channel after it is converted to a stereo Audio signal.
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#441977 - 12/01/17 06:51 PM [RealBand] Re: How to get a VXT or DX to work for only a single track? [Re: cooltouch]
jford Offline
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 10186
Loc: Pensacola, Florida
Got it. I see what's happening now. But just need to load the same multitimbral synth on different ports and you can use individual effects on each track (just verified it using TTS-1).
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#442040 - 12/02/17 04:08 AM [RealBand] Re: How to get a VXT or DX to work for only a single track? [Re: cooltouch]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18673
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Exactly.
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#442632 - 12/04/17 02:01 PM [RealBand] Re: How to get a VXT or DX to work for only a single track? [Re: cooltouch]
jford Offline
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Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 10186
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Thanks, I appreciate the explanation. Like I said, I just wanted to understand and sometimes it takes a time or two. Hard heads and all.
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