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#442333 - 12/03/17 11:13 AM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Plenty of issues & shortcomings still to fix (for staff & others interested) [Re: Icelander]
Icelander Offline
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Posts: 2191
But that's also just about all they've done, and I've yet to check just how well the Waltz fixactually works (they keep presenting far better RT's for anything I'd been working on, grr).
The function still absolutely fails to detect anything from the Chord Settings, meaning no Shots/Holds/Pushes will work (all they did to 'fix' that was force all UT's to go silent during shots/holds, which obviously did not FIX anything!), the playback still randomly makes the instrument jump up/down an octave for absolutely no apparent reason (sometimes even during a single chord/bar!!), the function still randomly omits endings of the UT when it can't find a 100% match (ie. faulty pitch stretch), and don't even get me started on that massively strict timing requirements followed closely by even worse cross-fading mechanism (which I just can't wrap my head around considering how amazingly fantastic that same mechanism works on the RT's).
And the sad thing is, I've now reiterated yet one more time some of the main problems with this function but right now is "New version release + sales month", so absolutely NO ONE AT PG WILL DO ANYTHING ABOUT THIS!

Ok, minor rant over...I feel better now crazy
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#442349 - 12/03/17 12:25 PM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Plenty of issues & shortcomings still to fix (for staff & others interested) [Re: Icelander]
Jim Fogle Offline
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Well Eddie,

Your "minor rant" did a pretty good job of listing some of the UserTracka shortcomings that are still outstanding. Continue listing if you think of any more.

I think it is good for all known UserTracks shortcomings to be available for viewing in one message. That way anyone that attempts to create a UserTracks can have a good idea what to avoid while the PG Music software developers, testers and support staff can easily discover what the known UserTracks issues are.
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#442405 - 12/03/17 03:47 PM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Plenty of issues & shortcomings still to fix (for staff & others interested) [Re: Icelander]
Icelander Offline
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And here I was feeling all better! grin

But of course you have a point, and fortunately the above rant, plus other comments earlier on this thread, do address the bulk of it - or at least the most serious things.
You sometimes need to push the bigger stones away in order to discover the smaller grit anyway, you know.
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#442592 - 12/04/17 11:21 AM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Plenty of issues & shortcomings still to fix (for staff & others interested) [Re: Icelander]
jford Offline
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I hope they will address this. I don't think the UT's we develop will ever fully compete with the ones they produce, so there is no major competition there. But I believe this feature should provide the same capabilities as RealTracks (as you have said, all supported time signatures, as well as shots, holds, and rests, as well as defined 2-bar endings).

It would seem to me that all those could be read from the template file to define those elements (i.e., if I have a hold chord in the template file, that automatically gets translated as a hold for the UT).
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#442613 - 12/04/17 12:29 PM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Plenty of issues & shortcomings still to fix (for staff & others interested) [Re: jford]
Jim Fogle Offline
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Originally Posted By: jford
It would seem to me that all those could be read from the template file to define those elements (i.e., if I have a hold chord in the template file, that automatically gets translated as a hold for the UT).


Great idea! Why not put it on a wishlist?
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Jim Fogle
2017 BiaB (470) UltraPlusPak RB 2017 (Build 8)
Sonar Home Studio - Cakewalk Music Creator 6 - Audacity
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#442688 - 12/04/17 11:26 PM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Plenty of issues & shortcomings still to fix (for staff & others interested) [Re: Jim Fogle]
Jon Thomas Offline
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Registered: 12/18/15
Posts: 152
Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle

Why not put it on a wishlist?


That's a good idea - even though I'm sure that at PG they are well aware of the current issues with th UT features.
Anyway, here's my wishlist:

- allow more flexibility in the timing requirement, as Icelander already stated. I think this is really the most relevant problem, because it really, really limits the quality and the kind of "usable" UTs that we can make. Icelander explained the issue very well, I'm not going to repeat it here. But this is really crucial.

- limit the amount of key transposition. This is also a big issue. Right now you can avoid wild transpositions from the BIAB playback engine, but you have to create 12 keys UTs (and set the BIAB playback to avoid any transposition), which is an enormous waste of time, hard drive space etc (imagine creating 12 keys performances for ALL variations, chords, substyles etc). Instead, if you create, say, a 6 keys UT, the BIAB playback engine should transpose at most by 1 semitone, not more (which would just fine, you dont lose much quality at all if audio is transposed by 1 semitone or two). As far as I can see, this is not what happens now. You get wild transpositions, no matter what. So, the solution could be:
A. make sure that the BIAB playback engine transposes only for the minimum necessary amount of semitones, at any given chord
B. give the user the ability to set the maximum amount of transposition (as a global setting, or as a song setting)

- implement holds, stops etc

I'm still hopeful smile



Edited by Jon Thomas (12/04/17 11:28 PM)
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#442806 - 12/05/17 11:13 AM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Plenty of issues & shortcomings still to fix (for staff & others interested) [Re: Jon Thomas]
Jim Fogle Offline
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Look at the POP style templates posted in 2014 shortly after the UserTracks feature was introduced. You will see that you must make 50 UserTracks to enable the UserTracks to work properly over every available tempo between 50 - 300 BPM. The default is enabled so Band-in-a-Box makes it easy to overlook just how many RealTracks are needed for a guitar part played at different tempos. Take something "common" and "standard" like the Hank series of acoustic guitar rhythm tracks. Look inside the folders and you'll see there are bunches of audio tracks. You'll also notice there are bunches of folders to accomodate tempo changes. There is a lot of audio for just that one series. Same with some of the piano RealTracks. I understand why it takes a lot of audio to create a UserTracks once I look at RealTracks more closely.

RealTracks has an option so RealTracks automatically substitute when tempos change. Is that true of UserTracks? Don't know. Do we still need 50 UserTracks to cover all available tempos since élastique Pro by zplane has been upgraded to V3.1.11? Don't know.

Truthfully, the main use I've found for UserTracks is to fulfill a musical arrangement need specific to a song project. For example you want a specific guitar riff to play. Within that constraint a UserTracks works fine but outside of that song many people likely will not find the UserTracks very useful.
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#442809 - 12/05/17 11:26 AM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Plenty of issues & shortcomings still to fix (for staff & others interested) [Re: Icelander]
jford Offline
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I think that, much like Bob Norton and his MIDI styles, were UserTracks to work mostly the same as RealTracks (and yes, it should take more than one minute and one take to create quality UserTracks) with holds and shots and ending and multiple chords and tempos, then that opens up a market for semi-pro players to create additional commercial-grade content for BIAB. But until all the issues are resolved, it's going to be perceived as a novelty and folks won't invest the time in creating that content.

The MIDI stylemaker (even with it's shortfalls) is pretty stable and mature and has a lot of capability for the average user to make really nice styles in the same quality as PGMusic provided styles. I think an overhaul to the StyleMaker user interface is in order, but it does work and it works well if you know what you're doing.

The same should be true of the UserTracks process.

My $0.02 worth.
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#442881 - 12/05/17 03:42 PM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Plenty of issues & shortcomings still to fix (for staff & others interested) [Re: Icelander]
Jon Thomas Offline
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Registered: 12/18/15
Posts: 152
Jim
it's true that if you want to create a good quality UT you need to record a lot of audio. That's out of the question. Also, tempo is not really the problem with UTs. The problem, as I see it, is that:

1) even if you create A LOT of audio, in many case the UT will still sound bad, when changing chords, because of the extreme timing precision requirement that Icelander was talking about. Now, for some UTs this is not too much of a problem (when you don't have legato between chords, for example - I did create some UTs that sound absolutely perfect!!). But for (many) other kinds of UTs this problem makes it almost impossible to have them sound good, no matter how much audio you record, no matter how precise you try to be. Anyway, on this issue Icelander is much more competent than me and I think he explained it already very well

2) the other problem is also not about the tempo, but about key transposition. If during playback you set the song so that key transposition is allowed, with UTs you get some weird transpositions that don't seem to make musical (or logical) sense. If I have a recorded audio with the C major chord, and BIAB needs to play a Db major chord, I would want BIAB to transpose my C chord by 1 semitone, which would be totally fine. Instead, what happens is that I hear transpositions of MANY semitones (so for example not from C to Db, but from G to Db, or so ... I'm just guessing here), which is not only sounds really bad, but it's also unnecessary, since BIAB can use my readily available C major to be transposed into Db!
So, at the moment, there's only one solution to this problem: to record a 12 keys UT, and forbid key transposition with the song setting parameter during playback. Which is ok, it does lead to good results, but it's VERY inefficient. Why not allow the user to control the maximum number of semitones that BIAB transposes during playback instead? It would be a much more efficient way to manage the issue. In this way, I could record audio not to (unnecessarily) cover all keys, but to make a better UT with more variations etc.

Jford,
I totally agree with you. I think that PG will address this, eventually. I don't see why not, really. But BIAB is a very complex program and I guess that UTs are not a top priority. I think it's understandable. Maybe many users don't care about UTs, I dont know. I guess time will tell.


Edited by Jon Thomas (12/05/17 03:44 PM)
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#443006 - 12/06/17 08:08 AM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Plenty of issues & shortcomings still to fix (for staff & others interested) [Re: Jim Fogle]
Icelander Offline
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Registered: 11/11/12
Posts: 2191
Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
Great idea! Why not put it on a wishlist?
The simple answer to this rhetorical question is: Because it's redundant, since what he was basically proposing falls under what the function is already supposed to be able to do!
And specifically requesting for a function to actually work is not something any of us should ever have to make around here, for any function smirk
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#443011 - 12/06/17 08:16 AM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Plenty of issues & shortcomings still to fix (for staff & others interested) [Re: jford]
Icelander Offline
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Registered: 11/11/12
Posts: 2191
Originally Posted By: jford
The MIDI stylemaker (even with it's shortfalls) is pretty stable and mature and has a lot of capability for the average user to make really nice styles in the same quality as PGMusic provided styles.===The same should be true of the UserTracks process.
I have to agree and I'd even argue that as things are right now, by using the Stylemaker approach coupled with some decent sound plugins, you're far more likely to get dependable results.
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#443012 - 12/06/17 08:27 AM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Plenty of issues & shortcomings still to fix (for staff & others interested) [Re: Jim Fogle]
Icelander Offline
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Registered: 11/11/12
Posts: 2191
Originally Posted By: Jim Fogle
RealTracks has an option so RealTracks automatically substitute when tempos change. Is that true of UserTracks?
I just spotted this in the midst of your li'l "essay" there and thought I'd clarify: The answer to that question is No.
See, the Tempo swapping RT's are all listed and clearly defined (e.g. at what tempo one should take over from another) in a specific file, for which there's no equivalent assigned to Usetracks (nor can we apply any of its very confusing 'UT settings' to define our own ourselves). As for the stretching engine, that one does work on Usetracks (as it does with any audio file used in the program), but you would still want to create specific UT for each given tempo range (like I've done with my EleFfred sets for example), if your goal is to be able to confidently use it over a very wide tempo spectrum.


Edited by Icelander (12/06/17 09:05 AM)
Edit Reason: Correcting mistakes
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#443144 - 12/06/17 06:58 PM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Plenty of issues & shortcomings still to fix (for staff & others interested) [Re: Icelander]
Jim Fogle Offline
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Registered: 08/20/11
Posts: 3186
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC USA
Eddie,

Thanks for the clarification.

I propose a good starting point is for PG Music would be to add an explanation for each setting in the UserTracks Development Settings screen. The explanation should be added to both the Band-in-a-Box and RealBand user manuals. I can't find it in either 2017 version.

That's been one of my annual wishlist requests since 2014.


Attachments
UserTracks Development Screen.jpg


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Jim Fogle
2017 BiaB (470) UltraPlusPak RB 2017 (Build 8)
Sonar Home Studio - Cakewalk Music Creator 6 - Audacity
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#443182 - 12/06/17 11:28 PM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Plenty of issues & shortcomings still to fix (for staff & others interested) [Re: Icelander]
Jon Thomas Offline
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Registered: 12/18/15
Posts: 152
Mr Gannon,
thank you, that would be surely very useful.
However, I have a feeling that it wouldn't solve the problems that have been highlighted in this thread, but I could be wrong of course - for example, the "beat / bar markers" section in the settings is still "mysterious" to me smile so, I don't know .. maybe knowing how to use this setting would help in decreasing the artifacts that are heard when chords change in UTs with "legato-like" performances? I'm not sure. Anyway, explaining these settings would certainly be a very welcome help, and at least it would help us to have a better picture about what are the areas in which the "UT engine" needs improvements, and to clarify what users can and cannot do with UTs at the moment.
Thank you for listening!


Edited by Jon Thomas (12/06/17 11:29 PM)
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#443184 - 12/06/17 11:42 PM [UserTracks (and other add-ons)] Re: Plenty of issues & shortcomings still to fix (for staff & others interested) [Re: Icelander]
balbuena Online   content
Enthusiast

Registered: 12/04/13
Posts: 50
Hello to all please excuse me, I do not speak English so I use a translator.
Could Peter Gannon tell us if the usertrack problems mentioned above are likely to be solved in 2018, thanks for the response and good music to all.

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Moderator:  Andrew - PG Music, PeterGannon 
PG Music News
Band-in-a-Box® 2018 - Xtra Styles PAK Quick Start Tutorial Video

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Joanne summarizes the steps she took to produce her cover of "Old Lang Syne" - her final result was posted to the User Showcase Forum: Listen to Auld Lang Syne

https://www.joannecooper.co.za/blog/blog/how-to-record-a-cover-song-using-band-in-a-box-and-realband

Announcing…The Birth of a Song (w/Floyd Jane)

We are excited to announce the release of a new project: The Birth of a Song (w/Floyd Jane)

Songwriter Floyd Jane shows the songwriting process from inspiration to performance and publication: http://www.pgmusic.com/?vid=IYMMZVvQdCw

The idea for this project came about when many members on this forum and elsewhere were asking questions about the song writing process. There are many aspects, and many parts of it necessary to create a song, get it arranged, performed, and then published on the internet. So we asked the great songwriter Floyd Jane, who is a regular member on this forum, if he could help. Floyd agreed and was even able to collaborate with other forum members, Janice and Bud. The result is this video we put together that you can see on YouTube or Facebook, called "The Birth of a Song (w/Floyd Jane)".

We hope this video helps other songwriters with their songwriting process, and also shows them tools that are available to them along the way. Also, we mention this User Showcase Forum, and hope to see many new aspiring or accomplished songwriters join this community :blush:

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Here is Floyd's original forum post for his song "A Little Bit Of Me": http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=433190

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Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows - 49 Requests Fulfilled!

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows boasts more than 50 new features... and a lot of the new features fill the requests posted by program users!

Some of these include:

Q. I am learning guitar. The RealTracks are very helpful in that I can hear great guitar players, and most of the tracks have tab and notation as well. But there is much more to guitar, could you include some videos of some of the RealTracks Artists? Because I would learn much more from seeing a guitarist than just hearing them.

A. We have a major new feature called "Video RealTracks." These work and sound like RealTracks, but you get to see a video of the Guitarist (or whatever instrument) playing as well. The amazing thing is that this works with any chord progression you type in. So, if you want to learn to play like the great guitarist Brent Mason, for example, you can type in chords to any progression you are interested in, and then hear and see a video of Brent soloing over your progression. Now you can learn much quicker, as it helps to see how a musician is performing, as well as to hear.

Q. I love the Audio Chord Wizard, as it figures out chords from mp3 and other audio files. But it is a separate program from Band-in-a-Box, and I can’t go back and forth to change things easily.

A. We've solved that, as BiaB 2018 has integrated the Audio Chord Wizard directly into Band-in-a-Box. Now load an audio file into BiaB, open the Audio Edit Window – Audio Chord Wizard mode, and let it automatically figure out the bar lines and chords for the song.

Q. I like to save songs as MP3 files, and can't do this with BiaB, except a very low quality one, 64kbps.

A. We've improved this, by adding support for Windows Media Foundation. This allows you to save MP3 in your choice of resolutions, up to very high 320mpbs. Better still, it works on current versions of Windows (Windows 7,8,10) and also on older versions too (Vista, XP).

We've answered 49 questions - review all of these answers on our forum post "49 of your Problems solved? List of 49 Requests fulfilled in Band-in-a-Box 2018" here.

All of the new features in Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows can be reviewed at http://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.new.htm

RealBand® 2018 for Windows Build 3 Update Available!

RealBand 2018 users can update their version with the latest patch, Build 3. Download this patch here

Summary of Changes since 2018 Build 3:

Added: Section Numbers supported. All section letter menus now include numbers 1 through 9 in addition to letters A through Z.
Fixed: Section letters in Notation Window were not being resized if the notation was zoomed in/out
Fixed: RealBand might freeze when generating audio harmonies
Fixed: Loading in a BB song (MGU/SGU) or generating realtracks could freeze up the program.
Fixed: Chords in Notation/LeadSheet on 1st beat of a bar were being drawn too close to bar lines.
Fixed: Support for XP and Vista.

http://www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#2018_3

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 Build 505 Update Available!

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows users can update their version with the latest patch - Build 505.

This patch can be downloaded here.

Summary of changes for Build 505:

Added: You can now put Section Numbers in your song. Previously you could only use letters A-Z, but now you can use 1-9 as well.
Added:You can now filter styles in the StylePicker for styles that contain Video RealTracks.
Fixed: Band-in-a-Box would crash with error "Procedure entry point MFTEnumEx could not be found in the Dynamic Link Library Mfplat.DLL" while starting up if using Windows Vista.
Fixed: Band-in-a-Box would crash with error message "dwmapi.dll cannot be found" while starting up if using Windows XP.
Fixed: The Transcribe feature in the Audio Edit window was not always working.
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Fixed: There was no Quality selector in the Render to Audio File dialog if rendering MP3 on Windows 7 or earlier.
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Improved: Band-in-a-Box will start up faster.
Improved: Importing ABC Notation files has been improved.
Updated: Help file and manuals.
Updated: RealTracks Artist bio's.

http://www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#505

New! Video RealTracks for Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows!

NEW with Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows... Video RealTracks Sets!

Video RealTracks allow you to see the RealTracks artist playing that track - you can use them just like any other RealTrack, and you can generate a video which will display the musician playing your song exactly as you hear it. You can also include a chord sheet or notation in the video.
TIP: If you load one of the video RealTracks bands, you will have video RealTracks on 5 tracks, and you can make a video of 1-5 musicians!

We've added Video RealTracks Set 1: Pop Ballad Band to our Free Bonus PAK included in Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows packages during our December special.
Video RealTracks Set 2: Country TrainBeat Band is included in the 2018 49-PAK, along with 40 Bonus UNRELEASED RealTracks, 22 MIDI SuperTracks, 101 Instrumental Studies, and Artist Performance Set 8: Traditional Songs Sung by Béatrix Méthé.

SPECIAL OFFER: During our Band-in-a-Box® 2018 Holiday Special, purchase our "Video RealTracks Set 3-6 Special Bundle Offer" to complete your purchase with the remaining Video RealTracks Sets for the low price of just $49! http://www.pgmusic.com/bbwin.videorealtracks.htm

Learn more about the new Video RealTracks and see them in action: Video link - "Video RealTracks Sets 1-6 for Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows"

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