Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
You need to be logged in to post on the forum
Topic Options
Index
#451099 - 01/14/18 10:35 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Turn UP those DRUMS!!!
floyd jane Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 5551
Loc: Florida
TURN THOSE DRUMS UP!!!!!!

Songwriters who are new to producing - and some who are not so new - often do not understand how IMPORTANT drums are to the overall sound of a song.

So...let's talk about that a little.

We grow up writing songs on our guitars (typically). So what we hear is our song with guitar. Voice and guitar. That's what matters, we think. "Yeah, that's how I wrote it!"

That's great. BUT... That is seldom how a "radio song" is produced.

Guitar players (writers) don't even HEAR drums in a song, generally. They only hear the guitars. Because that is what they know. And their guitars are, quite often, too loud in a full mix. I often tell people "the drums could be a bit louder". And "old guys" often say "I don't like loud drums".

If you stopped listening to music around 1979 (which a lot of "old guys" did), then you likely don't "get" drums. Music prior to that had pretty wimpy drums compared to today's music. A lot of people continue to listen to only the music they grew up on (if at all).

Since then, drums have been getting louder. And louder. And LOUDER.

But 1979 guys still don't hear them. They are GUITAR GUYS.

Get a current record (or any made in the last 20 years) and put it on your iPod (if you have one). Or find a new record on YouTube (or any streaming service) and listen to the whole thing - with headphones or earbuds. Anything after 1990. And PAY ATTENTION to the drums. Listen to the record ONLY listening for the drums. After a while you should finally "get it". It is ALL ABOUT THE DRUMS (and a little about the bass).

START your mix with DRUMS. Get them LOUD. Then add your bass. Get it to play nicely with your drums. Then add your vocal. You can have had all your other instruments involved earlier to track your vocals... but after that, do your FIRST FULL MIX with just DRUM, BASS and VOCAL. THAT should sound really good. Then add those other things - guitars, piano, mandolin, strings... UNDER that basic track of DRUMS-BASS-VOCAL. Add them one at a time. Let them "add some flavor", not "take over". Drums, bass and vocal should rule.

When you get everything you want in there (your mix, that is), if you are "hitting the red", mute the drums. Likely you will no longer be in the red. If that is the case, don't worry about it. I know that will cause a flurry of "rules guys" to start citing those rules they live by, but most of those rules are held over from analog tape days. If the cause is the snap of that snare, who cares? You likely will not hear any distortion from it - it's a fraction of a second. It will not distort everything else. Give it a try and see. And, that little bit of red on the snare can actually give it a small amount of "warmth" - even in the digital world.

Give it a try. Pick a song that you have mixed that might have the drums low. And TURN 'em UP! One way to accomplish that is the simple make a duplicate copy of the drum track and add it in. If that is TOO loud (unlikely), turn that one down a bit...

(Guitar guys often mix pianos too low, too... but that is a different discussion...)
_________________________
125+ BIAB Songs

Top
#451100 - 01/14/18 10:43 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Turn UP those DRUMS!!! [Re: floyd jane]
sslechta Offline
Expert

Registered: 12/27/13
Posts: 1098
Loc: St. Louis, MO. USA
Could not agree more sir. I feel the same way. Spoken from a keys guy..... smile
_________________________
Steve

BIAB/RB 2018, Pro Tools 2018, Korg N5, Proteus F/X, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
PC: Win10, Dell Precision T5400, 1 TB SSD, 2 TB HD, 32 GB Memory, Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 Interface

Top
#451110 - 01/14/18 11:57 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Turn UP those DRUMS!!! [Re: floyd jane]
MarioD Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/27/03
Posts: 10596
Loc: Hamlin NY
What do you mean there is more to music than a guitar? whistle whistle

Seriously I agree with you. The hardest thing for me was to actually listen to other instruments when mixing a song. I was so used to either listening to the guitar and/or the chord progression. Of course the guitar is still the main instrument but the other instruments deserve some space, I guess.

Ducking and running for cover.
_________________________
Yesterday I walked into a room and remembered why I was there! It was the bathroom!

64 bit Win 10 Pro - the latest BiaB and RB - Roland Octa-Capture audio interface - a ton of software and some hardware.

Top
#451140 - 01/14/18 02:52 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Turn UP those DRUMS!!! [Re: floyd jane]
David Snyder Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 3180
Loc: North Carolina
_________________________
David Snyder
Audiophile Everything + Studio + Instruments + Fingers
ASCAP, NSAI

www.davidsnydermusic.com
www.reverbnation.com./davidpsnyder
www.soundcloud.com/davidsnyderchannel
www.musicdealers.com/artist/davidsnyder







Top
#451143 - 01/14/18 03:09 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Turn UP those DRUMS!!! [Re: floyd jane]
Noel96 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 12614
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: floyd jane
START your mix with DRUMS. Get them LOUD. Then add your bass. Get it to play nicely with your drums. Then add your vocal. You can have had all your other instruments involved earlier to track your vocals... but after that, do your FIRST FULL MIX with just DRUM, BASS and VOCAL. THAT should sound really good. Then add those other things - guitars, piano, mandolin, strings... UNDER that basic track of DRUMS-BASS-VOCAL. Add them one at a time. Let them "add some flavor", not "take over". Drums, bass and vocal should rule.

floyd,

I've never tried the above approach before! I'll definitely give it a shot with the present song I'm working on. Thank you for taking time to write your thoughts down.

For what it's worth, part of my plan of attack with mixing is that I always listen to tracks in pairs to make sure that there are no audio conflicts that need resolving. For example: bass + drums; bass + guitar 1; bass + piano; guitar 1 + piano; etc. While the above takes a little time, I find that it's time well spent. Also, low frequency audio clashes such as those that can occur between bass and drums, and piano (or guitar) and bass, can seriously impact the overall quality of the arrangement/production.

Regards,
Noel

P.S. I think I'm one of those 1979 guys (maybe earlier even)!
_________________________
LINKS TO MY BIAB/RB SONGS


Top
#451158 - 01/14/18 04:25 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Turn UP those DRUMS!!! [Re: floyd jane]
Janice & Bud Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/05/11
Posts: 5225
Loc: GA USA
Damn, what about us bass guys? grin

Good info floyd! You and a few others here have “the” drum sound on the forum and, yep, it sounds like what I hear listening nowadays to multiple genres of music from various sources. And you nailed it regarding the snare red lining. That was/is hard for me to overcome due to my analogue mixing days - recording and gig house/monitors. I’m in the midst of remixing some of our earlier BiaB productions and the first thing I notice on them is the lack of drum presence and in particular the snare.

Thanks for highlighting this issue.

Bud
_________________________
Never grow up...it's a trap.
J&B SoundCloud Sampler
J&B YouTube Sampler
J&B Website

Top
#451178 - 01/14/18 06:14 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Turn UP those DRUMS!!! [Re: floyd jane]
David Snyder Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 3180
Loc: North Carolina
But seriously, Floyd is right and there is more than one way to go about it.

IK Multimedia has released TR5 with some cool engineer presets, like a bunch from Dave Way.

One utilizes a tool set called Mic Room (wicked cool) to mimic mic'ing the drums--another EQs the set.

Pretty cool. These are regular old BIAB real drums being run through the processors.

https://soundcloud.com/david-snyder-mixing-lab/miced-drums-master

Dave Way Presets and TR5

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/news/?item_id=13118




Attachments
Mic-ed Drums_Virtual.jpg


_________________________
David Snyder
Audiophile Everything + Studio + Instruments + Fingers
ASCAP, NSAI

www.davidsnydermusic.com
www.reverbnation.com./davidpsnyder
www.soundcloud.com/davidsnyderchannel
www.musicdealers.com/artist/davidsnyder







Top
#451241 - 01/15/18 05:51 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Turn UP those DRUMS!!! [Re: David Snyder]
floyd jane Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 5551
Loc: Florida



YES!!!!



(excellent)
_________________________
125+ BIAB Songs

Top
#451260 - 01/15/18 08:18 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Turn UP those DRUMS!!! [Re: David Snyder]
Samuel Davis Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 08/09/17
Posts: 204
Loc: Florida
Originally Posted By: David Snyder

LOL Thats awsome!
_________________________
Samuel Davis Jr
BIAB 2018 + Cubase + Ignite
BMI

www.sammycountry.com

Top
#451261 - 01/15/18 08:25 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Turn UP those DRUMS!!! [Re: floyd jane]
Samuel Davis Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 08/09/17
Posts: 204
Loc: Florida
Seriously though, great info here Floyd.

I just recently picked up a trick from David Snyder on another forum post to enhance your drum tack. I used it in my last song which I will be posting here in the forums soon. I trippled the drum track then EQd one of the tracks to isolate the kick and one to emphasize the snare then mixed the three to my liking. It really helped to bring out the thump of the kick and the snap of the snare.
_________________________
Samuel Davis Jr
BIAB 2018 + Cubase + Ignite
BMI

www.sammycountry.com

Top
#451278 - 01/15/18 10:10 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Turn UP those DRUMS!!! [Re: floyd jane]
David Snyder Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/29/14
Posts: 3180
Loc: North Carolina
Ok, this is hilarious. I was analying an old song with software to "match the EQ" and the sound of it using IK Multimedia's Master Match.

I chose Carolina in my Mind (1979 version) by James Taylor because I was looking for a good acoustic mix reference/EQ match.

I could have SWORN that song had a very lush, warm, midrange in your face acoustic with everything else WAY in the background.

But NO. All you hear in the beginning is some pretty thin and tinny sound picking and then a HUGE FAT BASS that dominates everything, with moderate drums. And some little tinkly piano stuff way in the background.

I am like--Is that REALLY what I heard all those years ago? Yes. But in my imagination I remembered something totally different.

Weird man! If Floyd's rule applies to Carolina in My Mind (which it apparently does) God Help Us All on Death Metal.
_________________________
David Snyder
Audiophile Everything + Studio + Instruments + Fingers
ASCAP, NSAI

www.davidsnydermusic.com
www.reverbnation.com./davidpsnyder
www.soundcloud.com/davidsnyderchannel
www.musicdealers.com/artist/davidsnyder







Top
#451282 - 01/15/18 10:25 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Turn UP those DRUMS!!! [Re: David Snyder]
Guitarhacker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 5422
Originally Posted By: David Snyder


boy... you ain't right.
_________________________
You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com

Add nothing that adds nothing to the music

Top
#451284 - 01/15/18 10:35 AM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Turn UP those DRUMS!!! [Re: floyd jane]
Guitarhacker Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/03/09
Posts: 5422
Good advice.

My mixing sessions start out with the drums and the bass. I mute everything except the drums... I EQ the drums for clarity and definition.... I want that kick to kick and the snare needs to have snap in it....as much as is possible using the real drum tracks. Often if that doesn't work and if I'm not in a hurry, I will turn to midi sampled drums to get that drive I want.

Bass is a close second IMHO.... what a properly EQ'd and mixed bass & drum track and a good singer, you have a song that will stand on it's own. guitars and keys, and everything else is filler. I always like to point to this song as an example of this in action.

BLACK VELVET

And the secret with adding the filler is to only add what is absolutely essential. Many folks make the beginner mistake of thinking that...well, they took the time to record the tracks so it'd be a shame to waste them, so we'll just put all 20 of them in the mix and make it sound "full". Wrong. It makes it sound like a beginner mixed the song.
_________________________
You can find my music at:
www.herbhartley.com

Add nothing that adds nothing to the music

Top
#451346 - 01/15/18 04:11 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Turn UP those DRUMS!!! [Re: David Snyder]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18669
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Originally Posted By: David Snyder
But seriously, Floyd is right and there is more than one way to go about it.

IK Multimedia has released TR5 with some cool engineer presets, like a bunch from Dave Way.

One utilizes a tool set called Mic Room (wicked cool) to mimic mic'ing the drums--another EQs the set.

Pretty cool. These are regular old BIAB real drums being run through the processors.

https://soundcloud.com/david-snyder-mixing-lab/miced-drums-master
..


TBH I liked this better.
I see you have the same issue with certain RDs that I do; there is a ringing in the bass drum that could have been muffled a bit for my taste.
It introduces mud in the bass/low-mids for some stuff.
That track sounded good on it's own, but I suspect it may need taming in a mix.

May be just a preference thing. I dunno.

I've been working on documenting how we record live drums, both the recording method (3 mic, 4 mic and 8 mic) and post recording processes. We have some years behind us so maybe someone will learn or maybe I'll get schooled.

Getting the right amount of ring from all drums is tricky .. from the bass drum, to toms (that often need control) to snare (I love a ringing snare), and even the ring of the ride bell. It can easily be too much, but you gotta have some.

Then there's phasing (mic placement and choice), etc
Recording live drums can get pretty complicated.
Especially once you get one kit set up just right and then another drummer comes in with his stuff ... or even the same kit with a different drummer will need changes.
We have a decent Yamaha kit that a lot of drummers are fine with once they play it, but then they all want their different cymbals, and then they inevitably move the snare a few inches. Having no idea we have 3 nights of moving the mic to get it where it was in relation to the snare. <grin>

Once we get done writing, and start recording actual tracks I'll try to document more of it. I think it will be fun to 'show & tell' how we are doing it, what we got for our efforts, and listen to suggestions from others.

smile
_________________________
Make your sound your own!

Top
#451348 - 01/15/18 04:46 PM [Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production] Re: Turn UP those DRUMS!!! [Re: David Snyder]
dcuny Online   content
Expert

Registered: 09/27/10
Posts: 1822

Scroll down on the SoundCloud page, and it says "Seems a little quiet over here" wink
_________________________
-- David Cuny
My virtual singer development blog

Vocal control, you say. Never heard of it. Is that some kind of ProTools thing?

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >


PG Music News
Beginners Help - Muting the Melody Notation

Visit our Beginners Forum, and you'll notice our amazing Forum Community helping out new program users!

Like this recent post regarding Muting the Melody Notation: http://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=458716 - Forum user Matt Finley did a great job of answering the new program user!

Our Beginners Forum really is a great resource for new program users!

Q: When I have entered chords and notation for a song, is it possible to mute the notation and just have the chords playing? This would be helpful for when I just want the chord backing track but want to read the notation.

A: There are several ways to do this. The easiest is probably to use the Mixer window and change the volume slider to zero for the Melody track. Or, hit the Mute icon on the Mixer for the Melody Track.

Another way, with more control rather than all or nothing, is to press F5 at the measure where you want to mute, and select mute or change the volume to zero. Later, press F5 and select Return to Normal, or change the volume back.

Introducing... RealTracks Artists David Wise & Shelly Justice!

For the first time ever Band-in-a-Box® can generate backing vocals with some amazing "oohs" and "aahs" vocal arrangements with RealTrack Set 278: Shiny Vocals Oohs and Aahs! Add male or female parts by renowned Nashville vocalists David Wise and Shelly Justice, and you'll LOVE the results!

David and Shelly have recorded with many different artists, including CeCe Winans, Dolly Parton, Don Henley, Donnie McClurkin, Jeremy Camp, Lady Antebellum, OneRepublic, Steve Green, and more!

RealTrack Set 278: Shiny Vocals Oohs and Aahs includes a three-part, six-voice arrangement – which you can use all together in your song or individually for more delicate textures! Listen to the demos for RealTracks Set 278 here.

Purchase RealTrack Set 278: Shiny Vocals Oohs and Aahs for just $29 here. It's also included in the Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows PlusPAK, UltraPAK, and Audiophile Edition.

Learn more about Dave & Shelly when you visit their RealTracks Artist Bio page:
David Wise: http://www.pgmusic.com/realtracks.artists.php?a=150
Shelly Justice: http://www.pgmusic.com/realtracks.artists.php?a=151

#TechTipTuesday - Band-in-a-Box® Patch Updates

If you're ever experiencing an issue with your Band-in-a-Box program, make sure you have the most recent patch update for your version - this can be done at http://www.pgmusic.com/support.updates.win.htm.

Patch updates are released frequently, and are created by our development team to fix any reported bugs, tweak existing features within the program, update demos and other files as needed, and more!

To find out which version of the program you have, visit Help | About Band-in-a-Box within the program. You will see the full version number listing as:
Band-in-a-Box® for Windows
Version 2018 (512)

The number in parentheses is the build number. As you can see, my Band-in-a-Box is up to date and will continue to stay that way because I've selected "Automatically check for updates every 7 days" within the Help | Check for Updates.... option (you can set the number of days to a different number). This window will also look to see if you're version is up to date, so you don't technically have to visit http://www.pgmusic.com/support.updates.win.htm if you didn't want to!

Once you've installed your patch update (make sure the program is closed when you're doing this), give it another try - if you are still experiencing the same issue you can report it by contacting us directly, or you can post your result to the Forum thread that also announces the patch update, like our recent Band-in-a-Box 2018 Build 512 Update (Feb 15) post.

YouTube Find - How To Play SLOW A7 BLUES Guitar Solo With 4 NOTES

Check out one of EricBlackmonGuitar's latest videos, How To Play SLOW A7 BLUES Guitar Solo With 4 NOTES and you'll hear a great Band-in-a-Box backing track!

http://www.pgmusic.com/?vid=blJPIX-9YbE

...and you'll also learn how to play blues with just a few notes!

A Little Bit Of Me Music Video!

A great music video created by forum user Floyd Jane! https://youtu.be/qPrejgnwb4M?t=3600

This song was featured in a detailed "The Birth of a Song" video created by Floyd Jane - watch the complete video here:
http://www.pgmusic.com/?vid=qPrejgnwb4M

RealBand 2018 Build 5 Update Available!

RealBand 2018 customers can download the latest free patch update here: http://www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#2018_5

Summary of Changes for Build 5
Added: When generating the input file for saving as an MGU/SGU SongMode128= is saved to the input file.
Added: Localization support for 2018.
Added: flyby hints to new dialogs.
Fixed: Save As with a filename greater than 128 chars could cause an error 123 plus access violation.
Fixed: Rebooting RealBand after a filename with 128 chars was saved could cause an access violation.
Fixed: Pressing the Change button in the Event List Window could result in an access violation if an event was not a Note event.
Fixed: When running in Win 10, and using BBW or PT to generate audio harmonies, an error would occur saying that you need BB 2011 or PT 12 to generate audio harmonies.
Fixed: Midi Thru Method was not being saved to the .INI file. It always reverting to Track-Specific when booting up RealBand, even if the user manually changed the setting to Global in the Midi Thru Settings dialog.
Fixed: Delete All Notes on This Peg menu item in notation window right-click menu was missing.
Fixed: Potential crash on exit (having to do with the DLL attempting to free up a dynamic array that was passed to it).

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 Build 512 Update Available!

Band-in-a-Box® 2018 for Windows customers can download the latest free patch update here: www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#512

Summary of changes for Build 512 since 510 (Feb 15 2018):
Fixed: "Load SoundTrack Song" and "Load song with RealDrums Audio" buttons in the Sound Track dialog were not working.
Fixed: After returning Band-in-a-Box to factory settings the File Open dialog would default to the bb\Data\Lib directory.
Fixed: Choosing a custom chord sheet font would ignore any color choice made in the font selection dialog.
Fixed: Drum names were sometimes truncated in the RealDrums MultiDrums and Quicklist dialogs.
Fixed: Exporting a MIDI file might cause the error, "MIDIConv.exe no found".
Fixed: Mixer changes were not undoable, and would not cause user to be prompted to save their song when exiting.
Fixed: Static in RT2438 and other various RealTracks fixes.
Fixed: StylePicker database various updates. Some styles were displaying the wrong feel (swing/even) in notation. A few styles incorrectly showed missing Drums.
Fixed: The audio latency setting would increase every time leaving the Windows Audio Devices dialog.
Fixed: The Download Manager folder name defaulted to 2016 instead of 2018.
Updated: Help file.

Forum Stats
27143 Members
49 Forums
50333 Topics
413119 Posts

Max Online: 2434 @ 11/14/17 12:37 AM
Newest Members
AM3, RoRoSong, WHW, smily, jeffkepner1

27142 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Matt Finley 250
Noel96 233
MarioD 175
VideoTrack 162
jford 141
Al-David 127
Janice & Bud 126
eddie1261 124
Jim Fogle 121
Torrey Bliss 117
Today's Birthdays
gimmeagig