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#455417 - 02/03/18 08:34 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17213
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Yes, in the studio I listen carefully to any opinion the engineer offers. He or she normally doesn't say much if the producer if good, so when they do say something, it's the product of a lot of experience talking. Good for you, Bob.

And yes, I would quickly go crazy working with anyone who wasn't sharp on theory.
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#455422 - 02/03/18 08:51 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
rharv Offline
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Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18759
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
Charlie! I spent 5 minutes replying to you only to see a message that the post I was replying to got deleted!

Arrgh. smile

Matt, the more time I spend with them the more I get the group dynamics and intent of their project, so each week I get more comfortable suggesting things. The fact that they are objective and consider my input also encourages this. Some bands don't want to hear it, so I just sit there and push buttons and sliders .. and I'm OK with that too. <grin>
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#455431 - 02/03/18 09:14 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17213
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
Any client who doesn't listen to the engineer is a fool. But how you get them to listen to you shows you have solid people skills, Bob!
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#455451 - 02/03/18 10:46 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: rharv]
Charlie Fogle Offline
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Registered: 04/07/13
Posts: 4363
Loc: South Carolina
Originally Posted By: rharv
Charlie! I spent 5 minutes replying to you only to see a message that the post I was replying to got deleted!

Arrgh. smile


I quickly realized my comments were off point and inappropriate to make. Please excuse my bad judgement.
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#455464 - 02/03/18 12:48 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: rharv]
eddie1261 Offline
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4276
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Originally Posted By: rharv
So Thursday I had to point out the elephant in the room.


Funny you mention that. Musicians all over Cleveland don't like me much because I have never seen an elephant in the room that I did not quickly point out....

Sometimes even a 400 pound gorilla. (If it's the bass player.)


Edited by eddie1261 (02/03/18 12:49 PM)
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#455484 - 02/03/18 02:40 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: rharv]
VideoTrack Offline
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Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 8052
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Excellent article, Bob. Thanks for articulating it so well and providing the detail that was needed to show the whole picture.

Many musicians could learn valuable lessons by adopting those practices.
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#455531 - 02/04/18 01:53 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: VideoTrack]
Teunis Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/20/16
Posts: 213
Loc: Gold Coast, Queensland, Austra...
I find this puzzling I ask myself would a person with absolutely no musical understanding be interested in creating music. If so would they not at least attempt to get some basic understanding.

I once played guitar for an old time dance band back in the early 70's. The band leader insisted we could read and her best reader was her trumpet player. She would tell us what tunes we were playing and hand out the sheets. However, she would hand out the sheet say in the key of C the proceed to play in Bb. The next night play the same sheet and play in F or maybe A. I asked the trumpet player how he coped. His reply was " Don't tell her I can't really read. I just work out where she is and follow the dots up and down, I know how long the notes are, but I don't know what's what". My opinion was this guy knew music and did in fact sort of read and transpose on the fly better than most.

Over the years I have spent a lot of time helping people by backing folk in country music clubs. At these country music clubs members come along to sing a song. If you were lucky enough to get a chord sheet of any meaning you often had to listen to what the artist was doing and work things out on the fly. In these cases experience outweighs the ability to read. To be able to play solos based on what the artist was singing and or help them out when they faltered was a priority.

These days I can't read a note but I do understand what should go where. At 69 I can still play guitar blindfolded or behind my head. I just can't play it as well as I did 40 years ago but I still enjoy it and it is great to go around nursing homes (and other places) having people singing along with me and enjoying a good time.

My thoughts

Tony
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#455544 - 02/04/18 04:32 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: Teunis]
VideoTrack Offline
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Registered: 06/05/12
Posts: 8052
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Teunis
...These days I can't read a note but I do understand what should go where. At 69 I can still play guitar blindfolded or behind my head. I just can't play it as well as I did 40 years ago but I still enjoy it and it is great to go around nursing homes (and other places) having people singing along with me and enjoying a good time.

To be honest, I can't think of any single thing that could possibly be wrong with that. Not a single thing. Keep at it.
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#455591 - 02/04/18 09:43 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
eddie1261 Offline
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4276
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Reading, while it is a helpful tool, is not always necessary. You'd just not really get calls for session work where it is a sight reading gig, and there is not a lot of that around much anymore. It is quite easy to get by playing copy dates because you can learn "songs" without learning "music" (they ARE 2 different things). But the statement can never be made that a player who read sis somehow "better" than a player who does not.

The thing about someone with a background comes into play where you go to a rehearsal and the guy leading the song will say "This is in C." You can then immediately envision C-F-G with a Dm, and Am, possibly an Em tossed in somewhere for flavor. THOSE guys are easier to lead around the maze of a brand new song than the ones who have to hear a song 150 times before they know the chord changes. The readers and more heavily steeped in theory players are likely listening to the song for the first time and writing a chord chart, where a guy who doesn't have the chord recognition tool in his bag wouldn't know what to write, only to remember that "at this place change to this chord".

One great example I can give you was a spot in a song in C where there is a breakout section that went Dm, Bdim, F. Gsus, G.... to say that to someone who doesn't know what notes make up that Bdim, you may as well be speaking French to a Cuban. But to tell that guy "B, D F, G# or Ab (however he chooses to think of that note - I would say Ab)" then he can play it. And he has probably played it before without knowing he was playing a Bdim.

It's a personal choice that I don't like to learn by ear, which comes from not liking to play other people's songs like they played them. But back to what I said earlier, and closer to topic, that doesn't mean I think I am better than someone else because they never learned theory. I just have that "tool" in my bag.
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#455875 - 02/05/18 05:25 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
ZUrlocker Offline
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Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 14
Loc: Michigan
I have zero formal musical training but I have managed to become reasonably proficient (D level) at 3 chord rock and blues on guitar and bass. I know one scale (pentatonic, ok so maybe that's 2 scales Pentatonic minor and Pentatonic major!). But I have learned enough that I can play and write songs. If you want to make music, especially with others, it is useful to understand the basics of musical language, like chords, keys, what I-IV-V means, etc. But the concepts are not that hard.
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#455893 - 02/05/18 06:32 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: ZUrlocker]
eddie1261 Offline
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4276
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
And you probably play more scales than the pentatonic without knowing you are playing them.
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#455894 - 02/05/18 06:38 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
ZUrlocker Offline
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Registered: 01/29/18
Posts: 14
Loc: Michigan
Only by accident!
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#455904 - 02/05/18 10:04 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
duncanwhyte Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 11/19/17
Posts: 31
Loc: uk
I expect any musical training techniques could be put into biab as an option. So the numbering system could easily work alongside chords, and be voiced as well, whilst you are learning the song. Such auto familiarisation would lead to acquiring a worthwhile skill.
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#455944 - 02/06/18 05:22 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Matt Finley Offline
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Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 17213
Loc: Hudson Valley & Lake George NY
In case you didn’t know, BIAB can display chords using Roman numerals, or Nashville notation. You can have the numbers.
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#456107 - 02/06/18 09:10 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Trygve Larsen Offline
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Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 897
Loc: Philippines
Funny and interesting tread. I have not played any instrument for a very long time. But when I was younger, I used to play Trumpet, guitar, bass, and simple piano. After starting with BiaB i have not played anything, except making/arranging songs in BiaB. I really love BiaB. When I was young and listen to music, I always dreamed about making something similar. And now I can. By using BiaB... I actually stil have a trumpet, a keyboard and a USB Wind instrument. It is just that I am to lazy to start playing again I guess. Or, it is just to much more easy for me to work on stuff in BiaB.
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#456555 - 02/08/18 11:22 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
jcspro40 Offline
Expert

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 828
Loc: Ohio-USA
I am a Solid D with decades of live playing under me belt....and I can not see anyone without at LEAST a grasp of chord progressions / styles using BiaB to good effect....IMHO....
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#456614 - 02/09/18 08:40 AM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: eddie1261]
Islansoul Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 05/15/15
Posts: 752
Loc: St. Petersburg , FL
Originally Posted By: eddie1261
This software provides a great opportunity for people to write songs even if they don't play, so I wonder 2 things. Which group do you fit in?

A. I have had zero music education in my life.
B. I do not play an instrument. All my songs are 100% software created.
C. I play an instrument but not all that well.
D. I play at a fairly proficient level.
E. I am a monster player.

And the second question is for only people who are in group A.

If you have had zero music training, how do you know what to enter into the chord sheet page to create your songs?

When I said zero music training, I meant zero. Like if you don't know that there are 12 keys, how do you know what to put in on bar 1?

This question grew from someone asking me about the software. She said "Oh that's cheating. If that's all that takes ANYBODY can write songs."

So I invited her over. Sat her at the computer. Started Real band. Got her to the chord entry page, and said "Go. Write a song if it's that easy."

She: "What do I do here?"
Me; "Enter your chord progression."
She: "What's a chord?"
Me: "What do you mean what's a chord? You said anybody could do this. Even with no music skills."

And that ended the discussion. (And I likely will never see her again. LOL!)

It is hard for people who play or have played, and/or had training either in school or on stage, to understand that we speak in terms that contain implied knowledge. To tell someone "A major chord is 1-3-5." evokes the question "What's a 1? What's a 3? What's a 5?" WE know that it means the steps of a scale, which would then evoke the question "What's a scale?"

So, again, I am just curious. The people I know here who have been around a while, I know your level of experience and education, but some of the newer names or just people with whom I have never interacted, I am curious to know your music education and experience level, if you read, etc....


I was just about to post a question similar to this. In the steel pan world, most of the players are taught using the rote system. For anyone here who does not know what that means, the rote system is a system where the player is tough strictly by observation, aural communication, and hand guidance (the band leader will come up to the player and move the hands to show which note to play). These people have no musical training, music theory, sight reading skills, or composition skills. This is not just the players but the band leaders and arrangers. Yes, most of the arrangers or band leaders do not have any musical knowledge and somehow they are able to create some very complicated pieces whether an original or just a steel band arrangement. I would say that the players and band leaders/ arrangers are A when it comes to musical education, but E when it comes to playing, but there are steel bands and player, mainly in the states who can read sheet music and understand music theory. As for me, I would say that I'm a C-D with the steel pan, but I don't know much complex theory and I did go to school for music under music production.

I am going to post some videos of famous Panorama tunes for you all to showcase what A level musical knowledge but E playing looks like. Panorama is the biggest carnival musical event in Trinada and Tobago where the steel pan was founded. Each band made up of hundreds of people in the large band category, play a new piece arranged for that band each year for a chance to win $10,000.


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DAWs: Pro Tools, Logic, and Maschine
plays drums, percussion, bass, steel pan, keyboard,
music producer/engineer

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#456641 - 02/09/18 01:07 PM [Off-Topic] Re: Just because I am curious [Re: Islansoul]
raymb1 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/24/05
Posts: 2524
Loc: Sterling, Va
There are too many examples to count of musicians who play by rote. There are still certain things one has to have some musical knowledge to do. Like Eddie said, how can you enter a chord if you don't know what a chord is? What is a quarter note, what is a quarter note rest, etc...........? You can't play with a band that uses charts to play without knowing how to read. Count Basie's band didn't have music on their stands but they had all the charts memorized. So many instances where one has to have some musical knowledge.
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