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Although I play horns, I need to know the chords of songs for soloing. If it’s a song I’m trying to learn, I like to write it out by ear (called transcribing). If I write anything, I have the ability to recall it, including music. This is not normal, I realize, but there is still great value in transcribing something to really understand it.
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Bob, I have to call baloney on saying no capos on guitars.
I will name one very well known example: Jumpin Jack Flash as played by Keith Richards. It just doesn’t sound right unless the guitar is tuned to an open tuning AND capoed. Scott, I couldn't disagree more with you. First of all, I don't know why people looking for examples to back their theory immediately turn the apples and oranges comparisons of major stars to newbie musicians. Keith plays that on a 3 string Tele and he has been playing guitar since he came over on the Mayflower. He knows how to play. This guy asking the question can barely play anything. Rookie players who learn to play with a capo will learn how to play an open position A, D and E. Then by moving the capo around and playing those 3 chords, they can bluff their way through 1000 songs having never learned how to play the guitar. They learn songs ON a guitar, but to have something thrown at them in Eb, then what? Those fret markers are there for a reason. Learn the neck. Play every song you know in every key. (If ONE more person says "That's the wrong key" to me I am going to punch them. There is no wrong key. The key in which a song is recorded is just the key THAT singer is comfortable with.) Learn the neck. Do you also propose that keyboard players play only in C and buy a keyboard with a key transpose button so they can play everything in no sharps or flats by transposing? (So Bob, a piano has no capo, but a synthesizer can. My Roland Juno 60 had a transpose button on it, and when I would go to sessions that saw things thrown at me for sight reading in keys with 4 sharps or 3 flats, things that would have required a lot of practice to get voicings, I would transpose to where I played in C. It's cheating, but when they are paying for no more than 2 takes, it has to be done.) Your argument is the same as those people who immediately want to say "SINATRA DIDN'T WRITE!!!" It doesn't matter what Sinatra did. It matters what Joe Smith does. There are no shortcuts. Too many people are looking for them. Put in the hours. Kids today are buying sequences, loading them into their keyboards, and pressing the start button, and calling it playing a keyboard. That is not playing anything. There are no shortcuts. You old enough to remember Heathkit products? For those who don't you could buy these kits and build small things like transistor radios. The kit had all the pieces and solder, and you took Board A and to it soldered resistor 32b between holes 47 and 49. And when you did that, if you followed directions, you had a working little radio. Did that make you en electrical engineer, or just someone who can follow directions? Now we have these "Blue Apron" kind of things that send you food and a set of directions. When you finish making your crusted salmon, did you really "cook" anything, or did you merely become the hands that assembled a dish from the directions? There are no shortcuts. This forum sees far too many questions that ask how to cut into the express lane and bypass years of practicing. The answer? You don't. There are no shortcuts. Don't play one chord form with a capo. Learn the neck. There are 12 keys. Learn them all. Every fret. Every fret marker. Every chord formant. Barre. Double barre. Start in C. Move to G and add a sharp. Then move to D and add another sharp. Until you run out of sharps. Then go back to C and go the other direction. Go to F and add one flat. Then to Bb and add another flat. Learn MUSIC, not songs. If you know music, songs follow. If you learn songs, music does NOT follow. Music is not aural. Music is knowledge. Songs are aural. Notes on a paper are not music. Music is knowing that the little dot on the 2nd space up with the line extending up is a quarter note A. And that if there is a dot behind it you add half the value to the original. You can learn songs and dazzle your circle of friends around the campfire at the weenie roast. Dazzling your friends is the easy part. Your friends won't tell you if you stink. (Well, MINE would. And DO!!)
Last edited by eddie1261; 06/05/18 06:55 AM.
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If I write anything, I have the ability to recall it, including music. This is not normal, I realize Actually, Matt, that is extremely normal. You can hear something or read something, and that can be a fleeting memory to your brain. But once you add the tactility of actually using your eyes to see it, your brain to think it and your hands to write it, you are many times more likely to remember it.
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Eddie, most people don’t string their guitars with just three strings, which if you have loads of guitars l, I suppose you could do that instead of using a capo.
Using a capo is absolutely as musical and important to learn how to play pop and rock tunes authentically to their orignal sound as is learning the fretboard.
To say that capos should not be used is just being pedantic.
As for saying that capoing pulls strings sharp is only true if you don’t know how to capo correctly by assuming that the capo should press down only on the strings and/or action that is too high and/or the capo pushes too hard. Since giving examples is not allowed in the discussion, I can say that I can tell what voicing a guitarist is using and using a capo. So many songs use the open G C2 Dsus4 Em where the guitarist is holding the DG down with fingers 3 and 4 on the 3rd fret, except not in G, in other keys There are not enough fingers to make those voicings with even the most skilled barre technique. Capo it is.
So forget famous use of capos if that doesn’t stand as evidence, let the ear lead you to the truth.
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I guess I'm blessed with a good ear for music, and a also good memory for chords and lead (I play keyboard) However there is ONE song that I've been playing for over 40 years that I still need the music for. It's the middle 8 (bridge) of Girl From Ipanema. No matter how hard I try I can never get it right the first time.  Although I'm not actively playing in a band (just a couple of times a year) I still practise around 6 hours per week. I play every song I have in BIAB and it generally takes me around 9 to 12 months to get though all of the songs. Then I start all over again. 
Cheers,
Keith
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.... snip
Putting the capo on makes the guitar sharp by pushing the string between two frets. Then when you put your finger down between another two frets, that string goes even sharper.
I use a capo sometimes for recording, and as rockstar_not pointed out it has nothing to do with not being able to play the chords, it has to do with getting the open voicing which for some material is very important. Pitch is not an issue, I just tune the guitar slightly flat so that when I put the capo on it is in perfect tune. I can see how that would work, but it's not for me. I'm a doubler on guitar and have a lot more to learn before those kinds of tricks. Right now it's all standard tuning, and I won't be trying anything else until I get much better at that. Sax, flute, and wind synth are my primary instruments, bass, guitar, drums, and keys I get along with, but other than bass, I wouldn't audition to play them in a band. But I've always said, there is more than one right way to make music. I don't use a capo for my reasons, but I certainly do not look down on others who do. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
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Although I play horns, I need to know the chords of songs for soloing. If it’s a song I’m trying to learn, I like to write it out by ear (called transcribing). If I write anything, I have the ability to recall it, including music. This is not normal, I realize, but there is still great value in transcribing something to really understand it. That's my viewpoint as well. And it's another reason why I make my own backing tracks rather than buying a MIDI or Karaoke track. I want to know what the chords are plus what substitutions are used and why. If I'm going to improvise over the changes, I want to know what the changes are. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
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<...snip...>There are no shortcuts. Too many people are looking for them. <...>
Learn MUSIC, not songs. If you know music, songs follow. If you learn songs, music does NOT follow. <...> Learn MUSIC, not songs is the simplest, best advice anyone can give a beginner musician. I picked up guitar and bass as a sax player in road bands. If there was no room for a sax in a song, the guitar or bass player would show me things and I'd play guitar or bass on the song. Knowing music theory made it easy on the brain. I just had to learn the musical layout and physical mechanics of the instruments. I wasn't taught 'cowboy chords' first (that's why my first guitar teacher called them - and he was a whiz at fingerpicking). I learned barre chords so any key was OK with me right from the start. Now on the sax (and piano) changing the key requires completely different fingerings. So when I learned a song on a guitar, and it required a key change and I found my fingers made the same shapes, same fingerings, but up one fret on the neck, it was like giving a kid an piece of candy!!! Hey, do you want to modulate again???? I can see legitimate uses for a capo, but not as a crutch. My attitude is what you do should support the music. If the capo makes the particular song sound better, use it. If moveable chords make it sound better, use them. I have a transpose pedal on my wind synth. I'll turn the synth into a Bb instrument when playing Bb Tenor sax parts and Eb when playing Eb alto parts (same for soprano or bari). And I imagine I could use it to play hard songs in easier keys, but that won't help my skills any, so I don't use it that way. But there is more than one right way to do this. I do what works for me and what I personally think supports the music best. Insights and incites by Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
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Seriously, Scott? "Can't give examples"? Passive aggressive much?
THAT example was bad. ONE song by a guy who has been playing guitar for 175 years does not make a point to a guy who can barely play open E and open G. A capo TO A NEW PLAYER is a crutch that shortcuts the process by allowing them to play knowing almost nothing about the instrument, and that should be avoided. That is a microwave world mentality perspective on what "playing guitar" really is. Learn the neck. In every key. Every chord fingering position. In every key. Learn key signatures. Until I can say "4 flats" and the student can say "E flat" without counting on their fingers, they are not ready to play. MUSIC first. Then songs.
If you want to go with bombastic examples, how much does Clapton use a capo? How much did Gary Moore use a capo? Or SRV? Talking about alternate tunings to a guy at newbie player level? You can't apply the knowledge base of a seasoned player to a newbie. Well, you CAN, but it doesn't hold water. Get me started on the "right hand on the neck" garbage that people still think was invented by Van Halen.
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I've never practiced enough to have my accompaniment to my favorite cover songs come out fluently.
And I think having to look at chord charts during a performance takes a bit away from the performance.
For those of you that feel the same, and have mastered the accompaniment to a large number of cover songs....how do you go about it ? How do you
- practice and memorize them,
- review them,
- how many times do you think you have to play/practice them before they are forever sealed in your memory for the future ?
- if you have to memorize the words too - how do you go about that ?
- how often do you have to review ? e.g. until they are forever in your brain ?
Do you think some techniques work far better than others, and you could contrast them and share why ?
As always, thanks. Let me go all the way back to the beginning when I first started learning guitar. Lots of time spent learning the chords. Music theory is really helpful.... but break it down to this. Most songs are comprised of 3 chords, and a minor 6th on occasion. Learn them as 1, 4, 5, 6m then they can be moved to any key and it works. I started playing my guitar along with the radio. The 1,4,5,6m was really handy and soon, the songs became muscle memory that I could drive on autopilot. Listen to the song, figure out if there's any "unique chords" other than 1,4,5 and write them down. The more time you can put into this, especially at the beginning, the faster you will learn it and in many cases, you don't have to think about the next chord. Your body and subconscious already knows where you're going next. I've had many conversations on stage while in the middle of a song and never missed a chord. Words are similar but different. Often, if you really like the song, you can learn it quickly. I, and others in our band, would use cheat sheets on the floor for the newer songs until they became second nature. Just the first line or a few words from the first line on a cue sheet on the floor. It's not a bad thing to have a music stand, just use a good one, and have the songs with chords and lyrics in a folder. As a solo act performer for a few years, I used that setup. Sure beats guessing at the keys and words in songs that you don't play often. Regarding the use of cue sheets..... You should know the songs well enough that you only have to glance at them occasionally and don't need to rely on them for the entire song. If you rely on them, learn the song better. In spite of all the time spent learning lyrics and chords.... you will forget them at the most inopportune times. So, knowing how to make things up....fake it.... is a really helpful talent to have. One time, I drew a total blank on the next line.... no panic... I just sang a bunch of nonsense words that fit the rhythm and kept going. The correct words came back for the following line. Of course the band knew. Only one person in the audience commented. Her comment was something to the effect that if she didn't know the song, she'd have never known that I forgot the words. Don't panic, either keep quiet or make something up. Chances are good that the audience won't know. OR..... if the audience is singing.... let them sing for you. Heck... even tell them, Hey, help me out here, you sing this song. They will think it's audience participation and not that you forgot the words. There's no such thing as "forever in your brain". If you don't use it, you will lose it. Hence the reason for cue sheets. Regarding using a CAPO.... I have one or two of them around here and use them. I don't use them primarily for playing the song in familiar, easy chords while in a different key.... I use them to change the tonal quality of the chords in a song as part of the sound I'm looking for. I have spent the time to learn to play ALL the main chords on the guitar. That used to blow the minds of the young guitar slinger guys in the church band/orchestra. They always used a CAPO on Bb and Eb keys (and more) .... and write the CAPO'd chords so they could play the song. Me, I'd just play the Eb key's chords and go on with life and the song. Eb & Bb are common keys I think, because the wind and brass instruments tend to be made in those keys naturally. I don't know if this is useful or the best thing since sliced bread.... just practice until it becomes second nature. Play along with the radio .... country & folk & bluegrass is easier than pop when doing this. Rock is good too. In time it will become easy.
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Gig story
Many years ago, when Disco first hit mainstream I was playing in a cover band.
We did a gig where we alternated sets with the DJ - 30 minutes on / 30 minutes off. The DJ also ran the lights while we were playing.
So we learned this new (at the time) song, "You'll Never Find Another Love Like Mine" by Lou Rawls. A nice enough "sound of Philadelphia" song. The lead singer/guitarist hadn't learned all the words so he wrote them down on a piece of paper in red ink, and taped it to the cornice right above our line of sight.
So we started the song, the DJ flooded the stage with red lights, and the words disappeared. He sang the first verse over and over again.
GuitarHacker, I don't know about you, but while many of the songs we learn are I, IV, V7 and vi, well over half of them have much more than that.
I do agree that you can get a lot of mileage with them, but the other cords aren't 'special' they are part of the family of chords in each key. IMO calling them special chords negates their important in the key. Would you call the ii7 chord special? the iii? And so on?
You need to know why the ii, iii and vi are minor and why the viio is diminished.
And that's just very basic theory.
Learn the neck, learn how chords are constructed, learn their relationship, learn basic music theory, learn to read music on your instrument, then when you learn songs you understand the songs.
Just learning songs would be like learning to read by just recognizing words without knowing how to pronounce the individual letters.
I know it's not instant gratification, but it works out to be the easy way in the long run.
And I admit, learning to read music on the guitar is more difficult than learning to read music on piano or saxophone. But there are other things on the guitar that are easier (like transposing) that make up for it.
But once you learn your instrument, learning new songs are easier, and memorizing is also easier because you understand what you are doing instead of just parroting.
That's my opinion anyway.
Notes
Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music
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Joe V
I’m sorry to see that your thread got hijacked by the Capo debate, and though I’m going to contribute to that body of faux controversy later, I’ll give you the courtesy of addressing your question first.
First, I think you are right not using chord charts during a live performance. There are too many other thing going on. For the same reason, you should practice so you can play without looking at your hands. A good performance involves moving around and interacting with your audience and fellow musicians. Maintaining focus on other things makes your performance and your enjoyment of it fall apart.
I don’t know a lot of tricks other than repetition. When I’m practicing, I first break a song up into manageable pieces and get each piece right before practicing it as a whole. I make a point of not practicing mistakes but makes sure to perfect a part played in error before practicing it again. When I practice the song I’m identifying places where I’m less confident and going back and paying more attention.
When I learn a song, I use a combination of notebooks and crib sheets. My notebooks are my permanent written record of the chord chart and lyrics. My crib sheets are my fold up, carry around learning tool. I run either the chord changes or lyrics through my head even when I’m doing things other than practicing. If I find I’m having recall problems, at an opportune time, I pull the crib sheet out of my pocket and review the part I had trouble recalling, then put the crib sheet back in my pocket. My crib sheet is with me constantly while my note book is primarily sitting on a music stand if I’m actually practicing. My crib sheets are usually in tatters by the time I’ve learned a song completely.
In a formal practice session, I try to treat things like a performance. I don’t look at music, chord sheets, lyrics, my hands or anything else I can’t access during a stage performance. If I make a mistake, I bulldoze through it, (ad libbing if necessary) then immediately review problems, rinse, repeat, until the song is perfected. I lot of the process is to make things automatic, through repetition, muscle memory, and subconscious recall.
When the song is memorized, I make a new clean crib sheet, which I paper clip inside my notebook. The notebook travels with me to performances so that if I get concerned about a song I can take a peek on a break.
I apologize if this sounds like Captain Obvious, but this has been my way of doing thing for a long time.
Keith
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Let's reach back to the very first line in the original post. I've never practiced enough to have my accompaniment to my favorite cover songs come out fluently. If I was a lawyer in a courtroom, I would blurt out "Asked and answered." The answer to this whole thread, despite the detours it has taken? Practice "enough". Once again, THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS OR EXPRESS LANES TO PROFICIENCY.Post after post pretty much asking people to practice FOR you doesn't help you get better. Welders get better at welding by welding, not asking other people how they weld. Masons get better at laying brick by laying brick, not asking other people who they lay brick. Practice. Practice. Practice.
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If I were the judge, I’d bang down my gavel and say, “Overruled!”
Joe V didn’t ask for short cuts to practicing.
He asked us if there were specific learning and memorization techniques that we have used that we found more benefitial than others.
I seldom say this because it sounds so arrogant, but with an IQ on the north side of 140, I have to remind myself that not everyone learns and remembers things the same way that I do. When I’m teaching anyone on any subject, I’m looking for alternative ways of imparting something that comes naturally to me. Not everyone learns the same way or has the same ability to retain information. My wife has taught learning disabled and retarded people her entire career and I have taught some of them to play musical instruments. I don’t teach them the same way that I teach someone with greater learning abilities. I also realize that everyone I teach isn’t aspiring to be a concert pianist or Duane Allman so it’s important to help each student work hard but not take the fun out of it for them.
There are lots of memory tricks that I teach people that I didn’t even touch on because they are a little strange sounding.
Keith
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The guy asks a cab driver in New York, do you know how to get to Carnegie Hall?
Bob
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The guy asks a cab driver in New York, do you know how to get to Carnegie Hall? I was going to use that too, Bob. Its certainly a good example of how the answer to the question is technically correct but of absolutely no benefit to the questioner.
Keith
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If I were the judge, I’d bang down my gavel and say, “Overruled!” His original thesis said he doesn't practice enough. Defense rests. Or would I be prosecution here? "I eat way too much food and I am fat. Does anybody have any tips for me to lose weight?" Well, um, I'll start with "stop eating way too much food". Then we move on to switch to a heavier fiber and less carbohydrate based diet routine. However, I am not going to move in with you and cook for you. Adults shouldn't need someone else to provide the discipline it takes to accomplish a goal. Agreed there? Also involved is the ability to memorize, which is not necessarily "learning". We have all known that person who was a great test taker that was dumb as a pile of hammers. 3.0 had a Master's Degree and she had to be told to come in out of the rain lest she get wet. Also why IQ tests means nothing. Someone with a photogenic or eidetic memory can score off the charts on an IQ test and not have any real world sense. I prefer real world tests. Something like "Johnny has 6 ounces of weed. If he sells Joey 3 ounces, how much jail time will he do when he gets caught with the remaining amount?" 
Last edited by eddie1261; 06/07/18 08:31 AM.
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Off-Topic
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913
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Veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,913 |
Sorry I bit on the capo debate. Just plain sorry. I hate asynchronous communication. Joe, go practice. Practice includes playing at least one song in front of people paying attention to you.
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Off-Topic
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,847
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Veteran
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,847 |
Well on reading this thread a common theme running through it is, practice practice practice.
All well and good, but this leads on to the question, how much time really (especially at our age) does one want to practice and spend almost every free minute getting better at our hobby?
I certainly don't want to spend all that time, especially as I like reading online magazines and do other stuff.
I do practice a lot more now than I did years ago, for years, or almost decades I never touched the guitar at all, and I think when you get back to music at an older age, there may well may be a regret that one didn't practice a lot more when younger, so maybe a desire to make up for lost time.
I also think that to start gigging for the first time when in late 50's or 60's is a little sad, well change that to stressful, and I for one wouldn't want to do it.
So maybe a better idea would be to substitute the words, practice, practice, practice to Play and enjoy and have fun.
As regards forgetting the words and even chords for songs, think I might get a prize for that!
Last edited by musiclover; 06/07/18 10:34 AM.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
ChatPG's knowledge base includes the full Band-in-a-Box User Manual and sales information from the website.
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User Video: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Paket | Was ist Neu
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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