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The problem of looking at the issue of unemployment purely in terms of personal financial inducements and penalties fails to see the holistic issue of people caught in a trap of unmarketable skills, low self esteem and depression to the point that they generally don't come accross well in interview. Just how do you deal with that?
Stressing that seeking and doing work is only a question of individual responsibility and personal morality is in my view a pious myth that fails to see the problem in the context of:
A) isolation: the loss of local social networks and the complete erosion of communities that used to support and motivate each other in the pursuit of the kind of values of diligence thrift work and community mindedness. People learn and grow in mutually supportive environments. Once you suggest as free market economics does, that people are just self-seeking monadic entities; individuals with only their own set of personal goals unrelated to anyone else is not only a misreading of human nature but an inducement to the very kind of debased and selfish behaviour you're talking about.
B) an economic system that looks at employment as a cost to be minimized as much as possible. Capitalists and companies are not social workers. They will with complete impunity, brutally outsource to other countries with zero worker human rights if necessary and claim that it's not their problem. We are facing a complete breakdown of a social contract here between the owners of companies and the social environment in which they began. Under capitalism work has become mererly a means to an end and not an end in itself. Its no use expecting people in without work to be high minded about the value of work if the very companies that offer it are doing their best to either debase it and render it expendable as they are now.
The other side of the issue is of course the abuse of the system at the upper echelons where jobs become temporary and subject to companies receiving tax and breaks, grants and other handouts from government. This isnt diligence or social responsibility by any stretch of the imaginaton and they care even less than beaurocracies. The entire system has become an outsourcing of what were once core government responsibilities to greedy and exploitative companies at massive expense to the public purse and with zero accountability. Thats what happened in New Orleans and its whats happening at every level of government now. So what price now of encouraging diligence? whay do you only focus on those most badly let down by the system and not those with the power to do something about it?
This is where I depart from a philosophical system based only on the privitisation of morality and moral absolutes. This comes squarely out of a historical tradition of the individualisation of religion, the puritan notion of the personal relationship with God and personal redemption theology. It would be better to look at positive ideas in religion as addressing us all collectively as its too easy and convenient to see successful self-centred individualism as a spiritual reward of good faith rather than something that has both good and bad sides. And of course the obverse is true of those who don't fare well in an individualistic society. Is it always the case that it is down to a failure to uphold moral standards, or is it an all too understandable failure of nerve in the face of overwhelming odds?. Its no use using the example of the few that transcend this fate as a stick to beat the many that don't. if we really want a return to better values it's time now to look at the current social/economic structure and the questionable and dubious values on which its based.
Regards
Alan
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Quote:
ps..heres what i love.
as you asked pat.
1. my dear wife. who has put up with my creative music madness.
god bless her. plus my dear mum of 92 yrs of age.
and whats left of my family in the uk.
2. makeing songs and singing. either on my own or with other nice folks via collabs.
3. aston martin and porsche cars..
tho i'll never be able to afford either. lol.
4. happiness and peace.
Manning,
thanks for your wonderful response! It made my day!
There is so much in this world to love, and it can easily fill the same internal void that might otherwise be filled with other, less productive emotions
What seems to be an empty glass is actually full of air. But if you fill it with beverage, the air is forced out of the glass. So it is with the heart.
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Federal Debt Population Debt load per capita
USA $ 12,434,500,000,000 308,605,000 $ 40,300
Canada $ 463,710,000,000 33,988,000 $ 13,643
I listen to the business news and check my Retirement Savings Plans once a week.
(So as not to be obsessed by it all...LOL)
I'm almost back with my investments to the place where I was before the 'crash'.
The Toronto Star says I can sell my house here ($250,000) and buy 3 of the same size and age in Florida or AridZona.
They also say you can find good renters easily to pay off the mortgages. I'm just neither that entrepreneurial nor daring to take the plunge.
All indications here are that we are really 'going' again. When unemployment hits 6 percent or less I'll believe that.
And I've no debts, just the health issues.
As far as the US recovery goes, their dollar keeps going down so in essence that's very good for manufacturing, and the money the other countries hold is worth less so in effect they owe less. That's good for them. The Canadian and American dollar are headed for par sometime next week, it opened this morning at 99 cents can equals $1.00 us.
A large call centre downtown with 400 employess was doing work for an American Bank. The United Steelworkers ran an organizing drive and before they were done all 400 had lay off slips. They were paying $13.50 an hour plus benefits.
My son works in a centre 2 stories up from there. He does calls for cars that break down, BMW, Mini, Audi, Porsche, Lamborghini's... but they need people who speak french. He gets 15.50 an hour, extra for being bi-lingual. He also takes on line loan apps for CitiBank in the US. I warned him about the union thing though, the other company just switched the business to India instead of Canada.
Like how Wall Mart closed a Quebec store after the union got voted in.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
The problem of looking at the issue of unemployment purely in terms of personal financial inducements and penalties fails to see the holistic issue of people caught in a trap of unmarketable skills, low self esteem and depression to the point that they generally don't come accross well in interview. Just how do you deal with that? Quote:
Alan,
thanks for the quick response.
Your question appears to be requesting perfect answers; but rationals don't believe in perfect answers. They believe in imperfect solutions that provide the best cost/benefit ratio
Having been unemployed many times, and having experienced exactly the things you mention, my experience suggests the following:
The worst thing you can do when you're unemployed is nothing. Stalled activity leads to feelings of hopelessness, largely because hopelessness is the natural result of no effort.
Providing incentive to get people into a job, any job, is better than the current alternatives. Once people are productive, their attitude changes and they naturally become more hopeful.
True story:
several years ago I moved to a different state looking for work. It was a traumatic time, and I experienced a great problem with depression. I spent much of my time bemoaning the fact that I couldn't earn enough to pay the bills, and the negative thinking took a huge toll on my mental health.
Finally, I just went out and got a second job. I remember thinking to myself that it was less stressful to work two jobs than it was to worry continuously. That revelation set the stage for my thinking in other areas of my life. By assuming responsibility for my own finances and taking action in ways that were in my power, I was emotionally benefitted. DRAMATICALLY! I was back in control of my life!
These weren't good jobs, by the way. But, they provided me with skills, experience and confidence which enabled me to present myself advantageously to a similar employer that paid better wages, and eventually I got hired. Later my positive attitude got me promoted.
That's only one man's way of overcoming the specific doldrum you mentioned. I'm sure there are more. I defintely do not think that government programs would have lifted me out of the murk. In one of your own posts, you described the ineffectiveness of self-help classes typical of a bureaucratic solution. I agree .
Last edited by Pat Marr; 03/17/10 10:46 AM.
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The other side of the issue is of course the abuse of the system at the upper echelons where jobs become temporary and subject to companies receiving tax and breaks, grants and other handouts from government. This isnt diligence or social responsibility by any stretch of the imaginaton and they care even less than beaurocracies. The entire system has become an outsourcing of what were once core government responsibilities to greedy and exploitative companies at massive expense to the public purse and with zero accountability. Thats what happened in New Orleans and its whats happening at every level of government now. So what price now of encouraging diligence? whay do you only focus on those most badly let down by the system and not those with the power to do something about it?
I agree with most of your description of reality as it currently exists. I do not agree so much with your root cause analysis. And if you have understood my words to mean that I ONLY think the downtrodden need to be more diligent, then we have yet to communicate effectively.
I think diligence and accountability are desirable for ALL people, at EVERY level in a society. I think cultures are defined by the traits they reinforce in their people. I think western civilization has stopped reinforcing morality, which is a key element in responsibility to others, and therefore we are rapidly becoming a culture that is defined by the common thread of social irresponsibility at every level
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Alan and manning and John
I just want to say that I really like you guys! You are each so full of good sense and analytical thinking... I rejoice in hearing what you have to say. Sometimes I don't have time to address everything you write, but that doesn't mean I haven't read it. I typically spend all day thinking about the points people make in these threads.
Discussion is a bit like dropping a pebble in a pond. The ripples go out, and every leaf on the surface of the pond is lifted by the ripple. Likewise, the ripples of an idea can extend long past our lifetimes, well into subsequent generations. Which is why we do well to communicate. Especially now that the world is so small that we can have an international chat every day.
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Alan,
In reading your responses, I get the impression that you don't think bureaucratic solutions are useful, and you don't think social networks like church have been particularly beneficial either. What DO you advocate? Tell me what you would love to see
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regarding "identifying ourselves by what we love"
I think it's significant that the bible says
"GOD IS LOVE"
regardless of what that means to you, that is a significant statement, worthy of anyone's consideration. Lots of people have a problem with God, but I have yet to meet the person who thinks there's enough love on the planet.
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Quote:
Quote:
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That first one is a good point and accurate example in many cases, Mike.
In my eyes it falls into the 'entitlement' frame of mind mentioned earlier. It occurs at both ends of the system.
Speaking of which...
is anyone gutsy enough to say that people are ENTITLED to national health care?
Almost every citizen in a country that offers it ..
That's fairly accurate.
I have a question - why can't (or won't) the richest nation on earth (that leads the world in medical research and development) afford universal health care for its citizens? Countries like the UK, Denmark, France, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Canada do (these are the ones I know of).
Incidentally, the "father" of health care in Canada was born in Scotland, emigrated to Manitoba with his parents when he was six, later studied theology, and became a Baptist minister at Calvary Baptist Church in Weyburn. While serving as a minister in the town of Weyburn, Saskatchewan, he championed the rights of the common man/labourer (he had a good role model to follow). In order to further his work, entered politics. As the premier of Saskatchewan, he started the wheels in motion for universal health care. He left for federal politics, and the then premier Woodrow Lloyd enacted legislation creating universal health care in July of 1962. Some other provinces followed, then the federal government, then some other countries - but not all.
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0002374
Glenn
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I have a question - why can't (or won't) the richest nation on earth (that leads the world in medical research and development) afford universal health care for its citizens? Countries like the UK, Denmark, France, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Canada do (these are the ones I know of).
Glenn
One of the reasons for this is our legal system. I touched on this earlier. I know for sure that France, UK and Canada all have caps on malpractice awards and I would bet the rest do too. Here, the skys the limit. Of course if a doctor/hospital cuts off the wrong leg or causes someone's death of disability, they deserve to be compensated for that but where do you draw the line? Is a million enough, 5 million, how about 20 million? Doctors here are paying something like $100-200,000 per year in malpractice insurance premiums. They don't have to do that in other countries. The other big deal is there's something like 2000 health insurance companies here in the US and they all have their own unique billing and paperwork. They don't all work in every state but still doctors have to have 3 or 4 staff just to handle all the different kinds of paperwork. I've read if someway or some how all that could be standardized that would save a bundle too. Neither of these problems are addressed in the current health care bill now before Congress, that's why so many people are against it. We need some reform in this country for sure but it has to be the right kind of reform.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Bob:
I'm aware of the malpractice suits - I shudder at how much the lawyers make from this.
But I suspect the largest lobby against UHC in the US is from the insurance companies. They stand to lose far more than the lawyers.
Interesting fact: In Saskatchewan (I lived there for fifty years) and here in BC, when you license a vehicle, there is the licensing fee, plus mandatory insurance. But the insurance company is the Saskatchewan Government Insurance Company (SGI as they call it) or ICBC, and they are crown corporations. One can get additional insurance for more liability or coverage on glass, etc. but this isn't nearly as expensive as the basic policy. Another point is that the insurance is so-called "no-fault" insurance - if you are responsible for the accident, your vehicle etc is still covered - automatically. No fighting with an insurance company, and no lawyers involved. Yes, it costs a bit more than private insurance, but I've never had to retain a lawyer to get coverage even when it was my fault when I rear-ended a couple of cars. The lawyers would have cost way more.
Fortunately when UHC was started, we had very few small health insurance companies, so they couldn't put up much of a fight. I strongly suspect that you are victims of the insurance companies. It's really too bad, because although our system is a tax burden, you'd have to look very long and hard to find anyone that would do away with it (and most of the ones you would find don't live here).
Glenn
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That's a bad example Glenn, because car insurance works the same way here. If you have full coverage on your car, that is it incudes comp and collision, then your car is covered regardless of whose fault it is.
The whole point of our health system is choices, not being locked into one government system. Americans don't trust the government to do anything cheaper or more efficiently than the private sector can. Our talk shows are full of people from the same countries you mentioned including Canada who will testify that they needed some vital procedure and wound up waiting way too long for it, over a year in many cases. We call that rationing care. The other thing is it's a well known fact that 80% of a persons lifetime health care costs occur in the last year of life so an argument can be made that while grandma needs that hip replacement, if she's most likely going to die within a year anyway it should be denied. Economically that makes sense but no way will any individual go along with that if it's their mother. There's several stories out of the UK about that. Americans simply don't agree with that sort of thinking but of course it all has to be paid for somehow. I used to live in Calgary, I have family all over western Canada including on the island and I know for a fact that lots of Canadians with money will cross the border to have procedures done here. Why is that?
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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jazzmammal
re canadas health care system.
all i can say is my wife n i are mighty thankfull for the above
after the year of treatments my wife has been through.
twas a very rough year.
the care was exemplary. the specialists exemplary etc etc.
iwont bore you with all the details..suffice it to say it could have been very serious.
my wife n i often say to each other if we had to have paid for the last year,
we would have not only been bankrupt probably...but owing for the rest of our lives
or whatever. thus i have to be fair to canada in this regard.
(my wifey is canadian..i'm a brit.)
mebe others have had bad experiences..but my wifes was a very good one.
also when my dear dad was dying in the uk...i have to say he was looked after
well there also..notwithstanding the bad stories one hears bout the uk system.
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.
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What would it cost to have cataract surgery (both eyes)?
What would it cost for a colonoscopy every five years for the past twenty years?
What would it cost to have surgery on your nose to correct blocked tear ducts (both sides)?
What would it cost to have an MRI done because you had dizzy spells?
What would it cost for an appointment with an oncologist/hematologist (every six months for ten years)?
What would it cost for blood tests done every three months for the past ten years to track the progress of CLL? (you can google it).
The colonoscopies, hematologist visits, and blood tests are ongoing.
Each of the above required/requires a specialist.
I had to buy new eyeglasses (once), pay the flat $20.00 fee for medications following surgery (twice), and pay for parking at the hospital parking lot about ten times. Damn near bankrupt me. Forget about the list above.
The US will have to do what's best for the country as a whole. It's not our choice, we've already made it, and it seems we're sticking with it in spite of what the talk shows say. Does anyone actually watch talk snows? Oops, typo - actually it applies - I'll leave it.
Have a good one mates. No more replies from me.
Glenn
Last edited by Glenn Kolot; 03/17/10 07:03 PM.
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Ditto. Thanks Glen, my experience in spades. I'd be so poor if not for the system.
What the others do not get, is I have freedom of choice. Any Doc, any hospital, any clinic. The get what the Government pays. No more, nor less. I can change anytime I want.
Not the best system, but I'm never going to be broke over it. I like the French system, but of course a whack of people believe they are a bunch of chickens who threw down their arms and waited for the US to liberate them, twice.
Learn some history.
The only thing I regret is that they are changing my meds, and for 6 weeks I cannot leave the country.....bit of a bummer that.
I have visited 6 doctors and had 22 blood tests in the last 2 days. An ultrasound tomorrow, and 4 more appointments booked in the next 2 weeks. I don't have to pay for it, except in taxes on gas etc. Oh well.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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folks just a general comment.
you know what is so sad in todays society ??.
not just the greed in some quarters, but people have become disconnected.
heres what i mean.
i remember when i was a kidlet growing up in cockney london uk
in the 50's. my granparents lived on an interesting street
which had its own ethos of folks helping each other.
heres how it worked.
if a family was down for the count via job loss or whatever ,
the hat would be passed around up n down the street to help em
get back on their feet.
neighbors would help each other etc etc.
the understanding implicit, being, once the family got back on its feet
then they would help others if the need arose.
it was sorta everyone on the street pulling together to help each other.
it was the "cockney way".
tears come to my eyes thinking of the generosity of the cockney spirit
in those years. and how people helped each other.
looking back i remembe sooo darn many fine people with great hearts.
as i became older in my teens i had two choices,
either become a "spiv", or get educated.
the spivs were very interesting people.
altho' they often operated in shady areas of business..
"psst mate want a watch cheap"..lol
once again many had golden hearts.
one always knew when a spiv had "made it".
viz they got a jaguar car. or a "roller".
(cokney for rolls royce..often a used vehicle.).
whats interesting is the spivs would often help the very poor and
the poor elderly. as i said golden hearts often.
i decided not to become a spiv. but went off to uni.
and received a top notch education.
but there is a problem with the education i received.
i went from being a somewhat "naive innocent" teen sheltered
by my family from the crazy world to being extremely
knowledgeable about the world (includeing the internals of the atom )
courtesy of brillant profs.
within the space of 3 yrs at uni i basically grew up.
it was a sea change for me. vaulted from cockneyland in
london to study with all these brilliant minds.
but there is a downside to such education.
in later years i came to realise in many respects i was over educated.
what i found in the real world of work was a zoo.
employers wanted one to often "dumb down" and be acquiescent.
many employers often wanted also the brains/training but didnt want to pay for it.
just life experiences i'm relating.
for example my first job after uni, a team of us were picked
to work on a complex technical project.
our small team was told
we had been chosen from a cull of a large number of grads.
we were told we were englands "finest technical minds".
and the best england had to offer.
well heres the joke of what we were paid after all the uni n studying n degrees
n education etc etc. in dollar terms about 3k a year.
i remember thinking at the time..
"i shoulda become a spiv..would have made more". lol.
in summary uk employers never wanted to pay.
i mention the above to possibly explain why todays young
(many i talk to tell me this..) arent too keen on
the daily grind. in summary, they have seen what their parents went thru ,
and are leery whether all the education n training pays off.
certain disciplines yes. eg every doctor ive known is well off.
but typically in todays large corporation, heres how it works.
the CEO's raking in millions want tek people on the cheap
to maximise profits and their own stock options the best they can.
ie..greed. to further maximise themselves they off shore engineering to
cheap labour countries where highly educated engineers and teks are cheap.
so lets take the usa as an example, and correct me if i'm wrong..
i perceive that lots of usa corps have offshored the tek jobs.
but this comes back to bite the american economy.
cos laid off brains in the usa arent buying stuff in the usa economy.
this is what the foolish CEO's dont realise.
they are impacting negatively their own economy.
looking back frankly many times in my life i wonder
if i shouldnt have remained in cockneyland.
some of the best kindest people i ever knew compared to the dog eat dog arena
of working for corporations and their lust for the bottom line.
yes folks my heart still belongs to cockney land.
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.
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You guys are acting like nobody has health insurance here. 85% of Americans have insurance and are happy with it including me so the costs are the usual copays. This figure of 40 million uninsured is a completely bogus, political number. Look it up if you're so inclined. That number includes wealthy people who elect to have no insurance at all and become self insured but they're counted as "uninsured". It counts the approximately 12 million or so illegal immigrants but even they have "insurance" because by federal law that's been on the books forever, no ER can turn down anyone so you can be homeless, have a problem, go to the ER and get treated. That's very expensive to the system so needs to be changed but people do not go without here. That figure also counts people who quit one job, get another say in 6 weeks but if for any part of the year they were "uninsured" that counts too. Don't believe everything you read. The things that need fixing should get fixed like help when you get laid off and lose your insurance.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Hi Manning...
thanks for the thoughts. It is a very compelling recollection you have made here.
There are many "near matches" of ideology... two things that provide similar results in one way but completely different results in another way. From my point of view, the story you just described contrasts the "near match" of COMPETITION vs. COOPERATION.
Both of those things help a group to better itself, but one of them does so in a way that is "win-win" while the other is always "win-lose"
Business, sports and war are complex examples of both competition AND cooperation. In those endeavors, people on one team cooperate to defeat the members of the other team. But my personal preference is in favor of pure cooperation. I don't like winning if it means somebody else has to lose. I prefer a negotiation of consensus, in which both sides are happy with the agreement.
Sports and business and war rarely work out that way.
Last edited by Pat Marr; 03/18/10 10:57 AM.
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regarding the direction of American health care:
The discussion here so far about American vs Canadian health care misses the point that I am trying to make, so let me go in a different direction.
We both have systems that work, but they're different. Any system can be improved.
The question is whether to scrap a system that already has a well-established infrastructure and start over from scratch at a time when money is an issue.
That's the functional equivalent of having a house that doesn't meet your needs in some way (living room is the wrong color, for example). Does it make more sense to paint the living room? or to tear down the house and build a new one that has the right color in the living room? Add to the equation that the homeowner is out of work, and money is already his biggest problem.
This guys situation has nothing to do with the guy next door (Canada) who has his own house and is perfectly happy with it.
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I understand that there is indeed a sense of entitlement among many boomers. We grew up during a time of plenty. Most of us have never really been desperately poor in comparison to real 3rd world poverty. Yeah, poor maybe by current standards of western civilization.. but from a global perspective our sense of entitlement does not resonate with the expectations of the world community.
One reason why immigrants come to the west and become rich in one generation is that they are not bound by the noose of entitlement. They understand exactly what they see in nature... that whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. And what we sow by the handful, we reap by the bushel. Diligence leads to plenty, not as a guarantee, but on the average, it provides a better outcome than the expectation that it is somebody else's responsibility to enrich your life.
And that is what entitlement is in a nutshell: the expectation that somebody else has more responsibility to fix your life than you do.
Look at nature for a dose of reality. Animals do not find their food conveniently at the same location every day. Some days they don't find food at all. They are not entitled to find food. Oftentimes they are not even entitled to keep the food they find because a bigger animal comes and takes it.
But we are able to reason in ways that animals cannot. We can take the same unstructured and unregulated chaos that affects us all and cooperate to everyone's mutual benefit. No law can mandate this. It always boils down to personal choice. And to the extent that individuals make such choices, Manning's cockney world can continue to exist... wherever people make such choices.
Organizations will always seek to maximize profits by screwing the people, which is exactly why the answer is never to give the government MORE power. Cooperation is a person-to-person phenomenon. We all need to reinforce that in each other. When you see somebody help his neighbor, praise him for it. Behavior that is rewarded gets repeated. Individuals always see a need and respond to it better than the government. That may be why the guys in manning's story who sold hot watches also helped the poor... because they are individuals first.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!
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Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
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The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
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Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
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