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The Time It Takes

I've spent too many nights alone
crying in the dark
wondered how I'd live without you (Live without you)
alone (Alone)
all alone
with nothing but these memories (Alone with memories)

But now
Every day
I smile a little more
I see the light that shines (Light shines through the door)
through a slowly opening door
feels like someone
finally let in the sun (Let in the sun)
and a new day's begun

I can breathe again
I'm coming out of Nowhere Land (Nowhere Land)
didn't think I'd ever find (Think I'd find)
the strength to start (To start)

I'm on my way back (On my way back)
'Cause I can understand (I understand)
the time that it takes (Time it takes to mend my heart)
to mend a broken heart

Something's changing in my heart (Something is changing)
I'm safe here in the dark
I know that I can live without you
Alone (Alone)
all alone (Alone)
You're nothing but a memory

I've closed this chapter in the book (Closed this book)
my future lies before me
I'll write a different story (Stories change, so do you)
without you
without you (Without you)

I can breathe again (Breathe again)
I'm coming out from Nowhere Land (Nowhere Land)
Didn't think I'd ever make (Make a start)
a brand new start

I am letting you go (I let you go)
Now that I understand (I understand)
the time that it takes (Time it takes)
to mend a broken heart (To mend my heart)

Finally let you go (let you go)
Now I understand (understand)
The time that it takes (The time it takes)
to mend a broken heart (To mend my heart)

The Instruments
Bass, Electric FunkHalfNotePulseSync Ev16 100
Piano, Acoustic, Rhythm Soul60sHeld Ev 110
Drums, FunkHalfNotePulse
Piano, Acoustic, Rhythm Soul60sHeld Ev 110
Loop, HipHop\Old School - ush105c drums ev8
Guitar, Electric, Rhythm JazzFunkGroovinChords Ev16 110
Guitar, Electric, Rhythm Soul70sWarmA-B Ev16 100
Guitar, Acoustic, Strumming Syncopated Sugar Ev 102
Piano, Acoustic, Rhythm Soul70sHeld Ev16 100
Guitar, 12-String Acoustic, Fingerpicking FolkRock Ev 100
Piano, Electric, Rhythm, SmoothPoppy Ev16 090 (Held Chords)
Piano, SynthLayer, Rhythm Soul70sA-B Ev16 100 (Held Chords)
Piano, Electric, Rhythm JazzRockHeld Ev16 100.WAV (Held Chords)


The Signal Chain
Lead Vocal: Synthesizer V - Eleanor Forte Lite -> Vulf Compressor -> Neutron 3 -> VoiceCentric -> Spitfish De-esser
Lead Vocal Ambience: EZ Mix (Studio B Reverb)
Harmony: Synthesizer V - Eleanor Forte Lite -> VoiceCentric -> Sunset Sound Studio (Studio 3 Chamber)
Bass: BootEQMkII EQ ->ReaComp Compressor
Drums: Vulf Compressor (2 Bus Glue) -> Sunset Sound Studio (Live Room Studio 3) -> Vulf Compressor (Old School Crunch) -> BootEQMkII -> ReaEQ
Drum FX: Raum Reverb (Clap Raum)
Loop: Vulf Compressor
Rhythm Electric: None
Strummed Ac. Gtr: EZMix2 (Guitar 2 compressor/EQ)
Piano: JS Tremolo
12 String Gtr: EZMix2 (Guitar - EQ shape)

Short Version
Comments welcome!

Way Too Many Words
I thought that I'd have a go at a J-Pop sort of song. I'm not really that familiar with the style, so I did some research via Google. I found a number of YouTube videos, and among other things, they suggested chord progressions along the lines of:

• IVmaj7 V/IV iii7 vi7
• IV V7 III vi
• IV III vi ii V
• IV V7 vi

Armed with this information, I searched through the BiaB demo styles until I found the style _KPJAZZY Demo - Jazzy Soul K-Pop. I suspect that the drum loop was one of the main reasons I picked the style, although I didn't really notice there was a loop at the time.

I was hoping to find something a bit more electronic pop in the styles, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of that - even in the MIDI section.

I remember one interview I read where the author said that JPop had long chord progressions, which is pretty much what I do anyway. But with virtually no listening done for research, I can guarantee that this will not sound like authentic JPop.

With a basic backing track, I opened up SynthV and put together a melody. It didn't really have a strong chorus, and it ended in on a minor, but I figured I'd trust the process and go with it. Two times through the song clocked in at a bit under 3 minutes, which was good because there were already a lot of notes to be given lyrics, and I didn't relish the idea of an extra-long song with a weak chorus.

Then... no inspiration for lyrics. Zip, nil, nada, nothing. It was too cheerful to be a sad song, but to slow and lacking hooks to be the dancey sort of fluff I had hoped for.

Over a week of failing to make any progress, I was feeling pretty desperate. But that's how it typically worked, so I kept at it.

Finally, I listened to chulaivet1966's "Stranger in a Strange Land", and started thinking: What if instead of time that caused everything to change, how about a failed relationship where you found yourself single again? And that got me writing something, which is a lot more than nothing. Not that the final lyric was anything like the original idea, of course. Planning will only get me so far.

I've said before that it's best to have a chorus in mind when writing a song. But again, I found myself linearly writing the song from the beginning, and only getting to the chorus when I discovered what it was.

Once the first half of the song was written, it occurred to me that, similar to some other songs I'd written, the second half could basically be an answer to the first half. Getting it to work seemed much more difficult that it should have been, but eventually fell into place.

Honestly, this whole song feels hackneyed - nothing terribly original here, and most of the rhymes have been used a bazillion times already. But despite this, I think it's fairly solid write, and I'm happy with how it turned out. Or that it turned out at all!

Once the lyrics were done, it was time to create some sort of arrangement. So I auditioned a whole bunch of RealTracks, and then generated a version of the song with holds and auditioned some more tracks. I also created a version of the song with only held chords, and rendered a bunch of instruments for that. Most of the instruments didn't make it into the final mix, but it was good to have them available.

I also edited the loop so there were three versions - just the kick, one with everything but the claps, and then the regular loop. That gave me some room to build. I mean, if Bud can edit the drum parts in his song, who am I to do otherwise?

I'd gotten used to the song as a solo vocal, but wrote a counter-line for it anyway. I ended up writing way too much and having to scale it back quite a bit. All those lovely competing lines lost to posterity for the sake of clarity.

The main problem with counter-lines is that they need some level of independence. But if you overlap consonants, suddenly the lyrics aren't understandable. Change the melody and forget to change the counter-line? Oooops!

So I open SynthV, edit the lyric, re-render, listen again... And then find another issue. It seems to be a never-ending cycle. Sigh.

Once that was done, it was time to pare things down so it sounded like an arrangement. Once that was done, I handed it over to my son, who trimmed it down even more, and did some magic to the signal chain to clean it up.

One of my goals with my mixes is to try to get a fair amount of clarity. That mostly happens when less instruments are playing. Although there are a good number of instruments on the track, they generally don't play together. For example, while there are several piano tracks, the piano that plays in the intro only appears there.

Then it was time to listen, find more issues with the vocal, fix them, listen again... lather rinse and repeat.

Again... thanks for reading (and hopefully listening)!

Comments welcome!

David (& Son)...

These get better with each new offering. (or maybe I'm just getting used to the vocaloid thing ).

I like the song. A good write. (Although...I think there are too many words/new ideas as the song progresses... my "Pop expectations" is for far more repetition of catch phrases...)

The secondary/background vocaloid sounds REAL. Impressive. (nice counterlines, again).

Really nice arrangement. I'm not really familiar with J-Pop, so I can't speak to that... Good mix - it "sat on the ear" nicely - nothing stood out, everything in the right space...

I'm enjoying your journey.

fj

David,
I like the shiny optimism in the write and Eleanor`s so-human vocal.
Good changes ( from whatever genre)- you have a talent for flowing melodies.
Excellent production as usual; those counterpoint bgv`s are beautifully timed.
Much more enjoyable than K-Pop!

Robert

Thanks! It's a work in progress, but hopefully I'm getting better with this tool.


I agree - that's something that impresses me with Bob Dean's songs. I figured that with the long progression I'd run into this kind of problem this was likely to be an issue.

I'll keep this in mind doing forward.


I had trouble getting the background vocal to sit well in the mix. In general, I think I put them too far forward in the mix. I think the proper reverb helped it sit in the background so it could finally do the job of supporting instead of competing with the man vocal.


Honestly, I can't claim that this is even close to J-Pop, just that I pilfered harmonic ideas.

I'm really happy with the arrangement and mix - especially the first half. It's tough for me to get clarity because I usually overstuff the arrangement, so I'm happy to hear that's not the case here.


I keep having to remind myself that patience is the key to this. It's not something that comes naturally (any more, anyway), but it's really cool when all the pieces finally come together at the end.

I appreciate the positive feedback!

Thanks! I do try to keep things upbeat, even if the topic is depressing.


I'm a sucker for interesting chord changes, often to the detriment of my songs. It's good to hear the melodies work. The counter-lines are fun, even if I get a bit grumbly about them sometimes. It's nice to have singers who can don't complain that they're stuck doing background vocals, don't need to be pitch corrected, and don't complain when I keep rewriting parts!

Thanks for stopping by and commenting!

David, you have mastered that vocaloid. It sounds like a real person singing. Outstanding work!

I also like different and interesting chord changes and you did a fantastic job on this one.

You have come a long way with the vocaloid.

Thanks!


I appreciate that!

Thanks for stopping to comment!

David

I'll admit I find myself listening to the vocalist more than the song to see how the technology is progressing.

The backing vocals sound excellent and the lead vocal is clear and melodic, but more synthetic than the backing vocal sound.

Good mix and a nice overall listen.

Peter

David,
Fun piece of music. Hooks upon hooks Mix is one of your best. You made it way too easy for human singer, all he/she has to do is follow your robo girl. Thank you for sharing.

Misha.

Another very cool song. Excellent backtrack and well laid out. Vocaloid and harmonies are very cool. Excellent lyric..

"She" sounds to me much more like an FX'ed human than a virtual singer.

The only J-pop I've listened to in any quantity is over opening/closing credits in Anime. This is very much along those lines. Hat's off to you for sheer perseverance. Hat's off to me for actually reading all o' that.

Much enjoyed.

Hi David,

Listened to this a couple of days ago but didn't have time to comment.

I think this has to be the best you have done so far with the vocaloid, not bad! Especially the harmonies.

But most of all, a really good song. Good mix also!

Good stuff, keep them coming!

That's as valid a reason as any!


That seems to be the general consensus. I'm guessing that it's partly because the background vocal is pushed further to the back and has more reverb.

There's also more processing on the lead vocal, and it's a push a bit further from the default timbre of the voice. I've removed some of the processing and it's a bit less harsh, but not enough to really explain the difference. Just something for me to work on in the future, I guess.


Thanks, Peter. I appreciate your feedback.

WOW David super job on this peace really great mix and great use of the V awesome stuff thanks for sharing Eric

Hi, Misha.

Glad to hear you liked it.

Of course, the risk of producing it fully like this is when the singer says "Great guide vocal... but it's a terrible key for me!"

Of course, BiaB makes it relatively easy to change keys, so..

Thanks for the feedback!

Hi, Scott.

Thanks for mentioning the lyric - for me, that's the hardest part!

Excellent!


My hat is indeed off to you, kind sir! That missive is far too much to expect anyone to read!

I'm glad you enjoyed the song!

I'm happy to hear that. It's always good to hear I'm making progress.


Thanks, I appreciate the kind words!

I'll keep plugging away!

Hi, Eric.

Thanks for listening and posting positive feedback - I appreciate it!

Another fine recording. I love how your lyrics match the vocal deliveries. The two voices harmonize nicely. Well done.

I've learned that I have to listen to your projects as something unique, something my musical sensibilities have no history with. Doing that, I find them very enjoyable. There's a lot going on and I can appreciate what it took for the various elements to play well together. You are definitely on a musical journey, one that we get to share with you. I'll be listening for sure.

Sounds like you're really polishing your synth skills.

Moto

Mr. Cuny...

I didn't know what 'Synthesizer V' was until I listened to your song. And then, I was startled, and impressed by what I believed was some pretty good (meaning human-sounding) phrasing in the lead singer's voice. The second voice provided a great deal of the pleasure I experience when I listen to some J.S. Bach-like instrumental harmonizing. It sounded so inspired that I felt the song could easily have been transformed into a liturgical composition with organ accompaniment!

To my ears the song had somewhat of a 'Steely Dan' kind of rhythmic and chordal feel to it that I enjoyed. The dense lyric structure was kind of hypnotic in its non-stop, wall-to-wall melodic motion. The effect was increased in the interplay/counterpoint between the lead and the second voice.

You wrote a lot about your creative process. How much of the final result was inspiration, and how much was perspiration?

Hi, Sean.

Thanks, I'm glad to heard you liked the harmonies.

I feel like I should put a banner at the top of the song: Abandon all preconceived notions, all Ye who listen!


I'll do what I can to keep your interest, thanks!

Truthfully, I'm going to go back and fix that "talking" part... it doesn't quite fit right. But yeah, it's interesting trying to get the synthetic voice to perform like a singer.

Thanks for stopping by to comment!

Hi David,

Tune - I like the 16th Rhythm and chord structure.

Genre - I think this may belong in the Jazz/Blues/R&B section. (this is a good thing!)

Vocals - am I right in thinking this is a completely synthesized vocal? If so the lead vocal sounds just right - jazzy and etherial (how do you spell that?) but the second voice doesn't work for me at all - it just gets in the way of a good song.

If it was me - I would get one of the plethora of local female singers in your area to sing this - they can do it online.

I would love to hear a remix.

Best Regards
Nigel

Hi, Loren.

That's high praise! I'm nowhere near that level, but I appreciate the sentiment.

I'd actually studied "Bach style" counterpoint way back when, and even made some attempts at writing programs that could generate music in that style. I never really got past simple two-part inventions, though.

One thing I learned is that there are a lot of books that claim to teach in the "Bach style" that require learning all sorts of "rules" that Bach never followed.

I think the biggest thing I learned was this: Writing in the true style of "Bach" means not letting "rules" get in the way of a good melody.

But there's something truly magical and mystical about good harmony that transports listeners elsewhere, and if I can get even a bit of that, I'm happy.


Honestly, perhaps a bit too dense. What you're describing as positive attributes are ironically what I think of as the failings of the song - the density and lack of breathing space.

When writing, I'll often find I've worked myself into some sort of corner based on some bad decision. Given the option of starting over from scratch, or just hacking away until it's fixed, I'll usually choose the latter and hope I can salvage what I've done.


I was a little worried that responding these posts might incur the wrath of Eddie and have him accuse me of constantly putting my song back on the first page - but I couldn't resist answering this question.

Besides, he doesn't visit this part of the forum any more, does he?

Chord progressions are pretty straight forward: circle of fifths movement, common tones, inversions so roots move stepwise, and so on. I've got my favorite cliches, and with each song, I try to do something a little differently. I'm not sure this is always a good idea, since with most music, simple really is the best approach. But it makes me stretch a bit, which is good for me.

Melody writing is also "easy", in the sense that it can be thought of as chordal guide tones embellished rhythmically. The results may not always be "good", but they'll be functional. Once the melodic skeleton is in place, it's filled in and tweaked until it feels like a melody. That's about half technique and half inspiration.

Then comes the hard part: applying lyrics to the notes. With the melody in place, it's sort of obvious where the phrases are, and where the core ideas are going to go.

It's really a backwards way to do it, but last year I tried it the other way around and wrote no lyrics. So this is more painful, but get the job done.

And there are all sorts of "rules" about what a lyric should do - how to set up a scene, introduce a situation, give a POV, and so on.

The problem is that - at this point anyway - there's no inspiration, it's just all perspiration. My storytelling imagination is rusty and dull, and I'm boring. My general approach to life is "unnecessary risks are bad". That's certainly a safe way to live, but it doesn't provide much material for writing. I don't spend much time imagining the world through other people's eyes.

As I go through the process of trying to come up with lyrics, or even an idea that matches the mood of teh song - especially as several days pass without any real progress - there's more and more panic and perspiration. I know that it'll work out, but I also know that I've spent weeks just figuring out what a song "wants to say", and that's not a pleasant place to be.

Ironically, it's not like there's anything earth-shattering in lyrics. And once I get to the point of figuring out what the song is actually about, it's pretty straight-forward... but still a slog.

As for harmonies, they're a bit like writing the melodies. I've got a good idea of what I think the general shape of a phrase is going to be. If it doesn't work, I won't hesitate to change notes and durations. That's actually the fun part.

Did that answer the question?

Thanks!

"I can breathe again (Breathe again)
I'm coming out from Nowhere Land (Nowhere Land)
Didn't think I'd ever make (Make a start)
a brand new start"

Our favorite lines from a fine write.

We were struck how it could work for both a lover who left a relationship or as a lover who passed away.

As has been amply commented on each production ups your bar and on this one the harmonies pushed it up even higher. Well done.

"Honestly, this whole song feels hackneyed "
Total disagreement here. Period.

"if Bud can edit the drum parts in his song, who am I to do otherwise?"
Go for it! Tedious but worth it. They sound excellent.

"One of my goals with my mixes is to try to get a fair amount of clarity. That mostly happens when less instruments are playing. Although there are a good number of instruments on the track, they generally don't play together. For example, while there are several piano tracks, the piano that plays in the intro only appears there. "

Mission accomplished. We love open mixes ... mixes that breathe. We attempt that via few tracks and how you did that with this many had to require a LOT of thought and knob twisting.

Thanks for adding the fx chains. PG Music asks for that and few serve it up. I like reading and learning from it.

As always the backstory is icing on the cake.
We enjoyed it and the tune.

J&B

Hi dcuny,

I really appreciated your working method. Using synthetic voices is not really easy, especially since you have to avoid a nasal voice. Nectar 3 vst from Izotope may reduce this effect. It can be tested for free for 30 days, I believe. To come back to your composition, it's original and well done.

Kindly regard
alis JaniJackFlash

It's difficult to avoid a hackneyed rhyme.

This is an original sound, at least not one I'm familiar with. You not knowing the genre helped you create something special here.

I imagine having the synth voice is a cool way to hear "someone else" sing your compositions.

Captivating. I'm not a fan of jpop but that funk drive underneath grabbed me. Who don't love some good funk?
The drums.... Man... So many nice Easter eggs in there.
And Elenore.... Nice.

Yes, it was left intentionally vague.

And at this point in my life, I have more experience with losing people who have passed away than I do with lovers who have left me. So I'm sure that informs my writing.


Nice to hear from one of the key harmony singers on the forum!


I should have clarified - I think it's emotionally honest, but I meant "hackneyed" in the sense that the words feel like they've been used so many times, they're almost cliche.

I'm struggling with the reality that saying things in plain, simple language is actually OK.





Personally, I think you do it the right way. But I love big productions, so it's a self-inflicted wound, and I'm learning a bit more with every song.

I'm glad you were able to stop by and comment!

Hi, Derochette.

In comparison to singing the song, it's really slow. But because I'm making songwriting decisions as I go along, it's pretty ideal.

Plus, it lets me make changes even after I've done what I thought was the final mix, it's pretty cool.

I've also written a plug-in that makes it fairly easy to edit the vocal parameters.

As for the nasal tone... yep, that's an issue. I keep trying to fix it with EQ, but my ears aren't currently up to the task. But I'm still trying!


Thanks. I actually posted a version last night where I had taken off a number of effects to make the vocal less harsh, and changed a few of the phonemes.

I've got Nectar 3 Elements. I'm not sure why I couldn't find it before, but it's probably because I never learned to spell "nectar" correctly.

I'll play around with it and see if that improves it.


Thanks!

Yep! I just need to learn to embrace it when it's the right thing to do.


Thanks!


100%! Especially when I'm hypercritical of how my voice sounds.

Plus, they're always available if I want to change the melody or lyrics, and no matter how noisy it is in the house. That's really nice, because there's always something going on around here.

Thanks for the positive feedback!

I'm really happy that BiaB added these nice 70's RealTracks.

I can't really claim that this is anything close to authentic J-Pop, but that's probably just as well.


Thanks!

There's a new English voice that's being crowdfunded for SynthV called "SOLARIS" with Emma Rowley as the voice provider. The alpha demo song, is pretty rough, but it's based on a minimal voicebank, so I'm sure the final product - if they get funding - will be much better. It'll be good to have more than one voicebank to work with.

I really like this David. It's so good.

J-Pop is getting pretty hip-hoppy these days, and here is an example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Uhh62MUEic&list=PL85dWO4i_3jZ1KkehTGKgpuQb4wcEWnge&index=3

There are tons of loops and samples to mix with the kind of thing you are doing to add a little more bounce.

Again, I like this, so this is just an idea for future stuff. Add some loops!

Also, pop is slightly more repetitive and less wordy than this, and I will let you have these for free:

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh
It's you, it's you
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh
It's you, it's you
I do
I do
I do
I do
I do

That was on the house man.

Thanks!


Nice song! Seems like the key here is still to build the chorus around a single line... preferably in a different language!

Most of what I've heard was from random covers of songs done using SynthV. This evening I was listening to a Japanese cover pointless tangent edited out from this paragraph, you're welcome - when my daughter was walking by and said "That's from Steven Universe! It's supposed to be upbeat, these vocals are all wrong!"

Can't imagine where my kids get those strong opinions about music from.

Anyway, turns out half the stuff I heard probably wasn't J-Pop to start with!


I agree about loops - BiaB doesn't seem to capture a very contemporary sound. Which is fine for me - most of the time - because that's not what I'm typically looking for.

Have you checked out RealiTone's Hip Hop Creator? It looks like a lot of fun to play with, but I duobt I'd ever use. I always get a kick listening to Mike Greene's walkthough videos - his enthusiasm and humor always make my day.

But I've been trying to stick with BiaB only for the moment, just to keep me focused. The next song is probably going to use some additional libraries, as I'm basing it off a BiaB style that's got a number of MIDI tracks, and I can use the MIDI strings to drive things like the NI Strummed Acoustic.


Thanks, you're the best!

This is my constant failing at pop songwriting!

Interesting backstory. I like the interplay between the lead and counter-melody. I have listened to a lot of K-pop (not J-pop) recently and imagine this would be an ideal vehicle for a Korean female duo. Nice job.

Hi David,

I like this a lot. It's the sort of music I listen to if I'm doing a long car journey at night.
I also like the synth vocals - something about the way it's not quite human really brings me out in goosebumps (in a good way).

It's got a good groove and it's nicely put together, but if I was being really picky I might think it was almost over-produced.
Not to say that there is anything wrong, more in the way that the attention to detail is so clinical that it almost
makes the arrangement too perfect. In the way that the voice isn't quite real, sometimes imperfection can be a good thing.
Does this make any sense to you, because I'm having trouble explaining what is really just an impression.

Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed the song and I have a great respect for the work you do with vocaloid.

Cheers,
ROG.

Hi David, You are getting better and better doing this in my humble opinion. This is a really good song and you use the voice of Eleanor in a close to perfection way... I'm very impressed.

Enjoyed the track a lot!

Will

Hi, Brian.

Thanks for the positive feedback, much appreciated!

Thanks!



Being picky is good!

I think "clinical" is a good word. I tend to over-produce my music in the first place. If I hear a stray "click" or "buzz", I'll hunt it down and remove it. One of the first things I do with vocals (human or otherwise) is remove all the breaths.

So there's no doubt a bit of sterility to that approach.

And as you say, adding a synthetic vocal on top of that only exacerbates the problem.


Thanks again, I appreciate the feedback!

Thanks, Will!

Hi David,

Wow!

This is really comfortable listening. I agree with floyd when he says that your use of the vocaloid just keeps on getting better and better. You've really got the hang of getting the best out it. It's so impressive.

Then there are all those instruments! I'd have no hope in Hades of working with so many.

You and your son have done an exceptional job with creating fine music. I was mesmerised as I listened on Soundcloud.

All the best,
Noel