PG Music Home Forums PG Music Wishlists Band-in-a-Box Wishlist Styles that actually sound something like the style name &/or band/song title linked to it.

I've almost given up on the Style Picker.
Most times I use a song or band to find a style I get a list where the constituents &/or the audition have little to nothing to do with "my" perception of the style.

I suspect getting additional Real Tracks to make the styles accurate would be more effective & efficient than creating additional styles that are more or less inaccurate.

Advertising additional styles is clever as well as effective as I always look/think about it but I now know it isn't going to result in accurate matches.

I half decided to buy the new styles packs but did a quick search again looking for the styles I like to write within in the 2022 package. There are styles galore & for many of my preferred things but the actual tracks within them, and sounds from them, really don't bear even a passing resemblance.

rayc,

One StylePicker preview feature you might find useful is the "Play Using Chord Sheet for Song" area. This preview feature uses the style to playback your chord sheet instead of a premade demo file.

One gotcha' is it will create temporary audio files for the whole chord sheet which can eat up your time when you preview multiple styles. One way around this is to enable the 4 bar preview check box.

Enabling the 4 bar preview check box selects the first four bars of the chord sheet. These four bars likely are not the most interesting four bars of the song. Temporarily program the first four bars to mimic four bars of interest while previewing styles.

I find style demo songs rarely relate to my project. However the demo songs do highlight the strength of program features and instrument voicing.

The "Familiar Song Title" part of the SongPicker window is a relatively recent innovation. I believe it's greatest strength is to help people with little musical background find a tempo, feel and time signature that works with a well known song performance. Closely matching a well known performance arrangement has never been a strong point of Band-in-a-Box.

Here are some real life examples of the works well but not matching principle. The instrumental versions of well known songs heard in elevators (lifts) and doctor offices. Instrumental groups that cover hit songs.

Yeah, you're right about the less-than-usefulness of the song/band search feature. Every time I try it I typically get a huge list of styles that sound nothing like the song/band in question. And the 8 character filenames are not all that helpful. Even the genre tags are often bringing up lots of styles that seem not well suited for the selected genre.

About the best thing I have figured out is to listen to the style demo and if it sounds promising then demo the style with your chords. Jim's tips above might be very helpful with this effort.

As I see the song-based search, it looks for a set of simple rules that fit a song as performed by someone, not particularly to show a match to the style of that song.

In a way than seems perverse, but then if one wants to do, say, a funk or jazz version of a country song, it gives you more options to audition. Whether that's good or bad is probably in the eye of the beholder.

A style is what it is and sounds like it sounds. It's a single component of a multi-component process to achieve closely matching and capturing the feel and groove of a song or band.

The original post mentions Using the StylPicker and filters along with searching by a band name or song title doesn't yield good results. I agree. It's too coarse and sparse to provide all the opportunities for an accurate match to a specific band or song.

More parameters are necessary for success. BIAB provides multiple tools and techniques for the user to add additional components to a BIAB style when attempting to match a style with a particular song or band. Adding a single application or combinations of a MIDI Song, Single MIDI Tracks, WAV/MP3 files/snippet sample, Loops, UserTracks and Artist Performance Tracks to an audition, allows someone to possibly get a near note perfect replication of a song or band sound from BIAB styles. That can become a template for a cover, Karaoke rendition or template for an 'in the style of' project.

Forum user Mr. Henry Clarke has several good video tutorials how he uses the ACW or MIDI Files to capture the feel of a song or band so he can use BIAB to create a cover or an original that's 'in the style' of a particular artist or song.

I've attached a screenshot showing some of the additional tools I use that some may not have tried in their workflow. These tools let me search and audition the Play over Current Chord Chart feature in the StylePicker dialog and hearing them in an 'in the style of' a specific song or band's unique sound. With these tools and techniques, I've been able to replicate accurate sound tracks for folks to perform with.

The Rolling Stones and Otis Redding were both blues/Soul genre influenced recording artists but each had their own identifiable sound. No one would mistake the Otis Redding cover of "Satisfaction" as the Rolling Stones version.

Lots of interesting stuff.
I really enjoy using BIAB. I'm a little frustrated on occasion is all.

Jim,
I'll try the chord sheet thing because it sounds like fun...thanks.

However when the machine pulls up a "lite pop bass" for Joy Division etc. then the limits to stylistic variation in the real tracks becomes the issue. Of course I understand the chances of having a Peter Hook style bass RT are nada and I used that example as an extreme but many styles are a case of mend & make do.
Luckily I'm still able to do the bass line myself, or fumble through a guitar thing but not having a JD style drum part would kill off that idea within BIAB and send me to a drum program.

Charlie,
You seem to mistake my wish for a lack of understanding of BIAB.
I used to use ACW before it changed - it was a useful tool when needed. I do wish it could be more like it used to be OR the manual a little clearer on a) the changes & b) how to use it now. I don't like the Audio Edit function at all as, to me, it's neither intuitive nor a good GUI. I have a couple of other programs that work better for me.
I've dabbled successfully with user tracks, my 1st option is always RDrums as many of the midi ones still sound "midi". I'm not too keen on BIAB Midi for the same reason though have had some success with Super Midi Tracks - in fact I used SMT strings, heavily rewritten, for my latest in the User Showcase as the RTs didn't fit.

I return to my point that the RTs used in styles are often not up to the style's needs.

No. No mistake. I've listened to a lot of your User Showcase posts and read most of your forum comments. I know you understand BIAB and you make good use of the product. I agreed with you that the method you describe that you use give less than satisfactory results.

In my case, I frequently search and audition for "Styles that actually sound something like the style name &/or band/song title linked to it."

I simply shared some BIAB tools and techniques and BIAB tutorials I use that successfully help me quickly and reliably find these styles so that you or any user can try if you wish to. I never mention your understanding of the product. What I did do is offer suggestions of options you had made no mention of thinking you and others may find them useful.

Your response indicates you are familiar with most of the suggestions and they don't seem to work for you so you developed work arounds. That's reasonable.

dunno if this helps, …just some thoughts…

(and NO i'm not trying to be a 'smartie'...just some methods i use)

imho its a catch 22 for pg, if they offered too few styles , people want more. if thousands then people want better search algos which often dont suit some folks , cos everyone is different.
from my background in tech. cant please everyone.
and search algos will only take one so far.

i notice that some pg users limit themselves to a certain genre or a few styles cos i guess they dont want to go thru a ton/thousands of styles.
this is where things go 'pear shaped' for them and imho they miss a huge no of bb sound pictures they could use in a song.
'thars gold in thar hills pardner' lmao. i even completely ignore 'best rt's for this style' ie rt's suggested by bb.
i'n not saying i know the depths of bb like charlie, but ive found over the years one needs to create ones own methods for getting best out of bb.

for example…….

once a year i pull out my trusty 3 ring binder with style comments on my fav styles. and once a year i go thru every single of the thousands of styles , including new styles, and update the binder.
this way when i start a new song i go to my trusty binder and it helps me make style choices.
for example even tho' i'm a 'rocker' in my binder might be a jazz style i particularly like. i do the same with instruments. in my binder are , in a separate section list after list of rt id's with comments categorized by instrument type eg acoustic guitar , or solo electric
or whatever.
each year i do the same for real drums including any new
noting in the binder likes.

re the above i'm sure some will say 'he is nuts' or 'thats a crazy amount of work spending a week updating the stoopid binder' .
to which my retort is 'i'm sorry but songs are a load of darn work'. in addition i dont have the budgets of the big 20 million dollar plus recording studios for instrument libraries etc with sometimes just one alone costing big money.
particularly given the fact as i was reading recently some musos might be lucky to make 50 buks a year from streaming.

in conclusion my method above using the stoopid binder etc etc has led to the joy of getting many 'happy accidents' from bb style picker which i use extensively..

(what i do also is , once i have my song chord bb arrange down i test out a ton of styles useing stoopid binder which might lead to more happy accidents.
bottom line…songs are hours n' hours of grinding work..and computer algorithms only can take one so far.

lets say i'm a new user this year to bb nd i wanna do a song ala doobies china grove and i expect to put into algorithm 'doobies china grove style//rt's//rd'..so all i have to then do is add my vocs. sorry aint gonna happen imho.
i found in industry. ya gotta get down n' dirty in the weeds sometimes to get what you want.
hth//ymmv//just things that work for moi and my stoopid binder..lol.)
maybe my methods might help a new pg user somewhat.

happiness to all.

om

<" ... bottom line…songs are hours n' hours of grinding work..and computer algorithms only can take one so far.

lets say i'm a new user this year to bb nd i wanna do a song ala doobies china grove and i expect to put into algorithm 'doobies china grove style//rt's//rd'..so all i have to then do is add my vocs. sorry aint gonna happen imho.">
↑
I think you're spot on except for this comment.

Whether one's attempting to make a unique cover, Karaoke track or accurate backing track, doing a song 'in the style of' or a 'nearly an exact sounding rendition', BIAB has techniques and tools and features to accomplish this in minutes, not hours.

For those that may have an interest in how to do this in BIAB, watch these videos by BIAB user, Henry Clarke or check out Joanne Cooper's web site. She also had a tutorial to do this.

How I use BIAB and MIDI to capture the "Feel" for a song - Tutorial

In his video, he uses the drums and once he's located a style that works with the drums, he replaces the midi drums with a close RealDrums track and has an All RealTracks version of the song.
(Note: Although there's a new bug in BIAB that causes Mr. Henry's exact method to not work correctly, PG Staff is aware of the bug and state a fix is in the works. Also, there's a work around that issue if you want to follow his instructions. And there's another method to do the same thing that avoids the move/copy command with the bug.)

Here's a link to a backing track I created in the 2017 version of BIAB of the Doobie Brothers "Listen to the Music" by combining a MIDI File, RealStyle and an audio file.

Listen To The Music

I watched the Henry video and the Doobie backing - thanks.

Henry's system is, more or less, what I do when I'm working from a Midi file...something I do very occasionally when doing a close style copy.
HOWEVER it does, hugely, depend on the quality of the midi writing.

When auditioning the real tracks in the style he opted for Henry was listening to both the midi & RD tracks together...then said the drums were busy. Well, if they aren't identical they would sound "busy". Perhaps this was an error and not his usual process.
It's probably problematic for new users to hear the drums being referred to as the melody as well but these are small things in the larger scheme.
I did learn about splitting the midi though...pity that's the part that BIAB is causing grief with at present.

More "work arounds" that, in some ways, reinforce my OP.
BIAB is pretty flexible and being able to track some stuff expands the potential enormously as well as removing some of the blandness that seems to haunt styles.

I've found the "find song" feature to be utterly pointless. Not once has it ever found a style that is even close to being remotely similar.
The crazy thing is I can often find a style, that doesn't come up in the list, that is a far closer match. Unfortunately, manual search is just so unnecessarily difficult and time consuming.

Trying to find suitable styles and realtracks in BIAB is the single worst thing that lets this software down the most.
It follows no logic and is just bad from start to finish. I thought the newer style picker might improve things but I actually find it worse than the old one in some respects.

To improve things instantly would be to simply label everything appropriately and allow the filter to actually "filter". Not "here's 30 styles that fit your search requirements plus another 200 which are as unrelated as possible - just adding noise and making sorting and further drilling down such a chore that you can't be bothered.

If I type "rock" I want to only see rock in the category list, if I want "blues" ... etc. I can then dig further by sorting feel, or tempo etc. None if this is possible in BIAB.

Unless I'm missing something?

I generally audition styles manually to select one that fits the genre I require, using the category filters. Finding a style from inputting a song title rarely gets me in the ballpark.

totally agree with this post. I wasted hundreds of hours over the years and seldom got rewarded. This feature must be long overdue a major overhaul

Same here!

And here! I have wasted so much time over this.

Around 2014-15 when there were likely 1200-1600 less styles and a thousand less RealTracks, this was a common complaint on the forum. Back then, as it is still today, the forum blamed the StylePicker and the generic and bland RealTracks. Late one Sunday night the discussion turned to BIAB's StylePicker couldn't even produce a particular classic rock guitar song. Dr. Gannon was monitoring the forum that night and joined the conversation and quickly located a style, a guitar soloist RealTrack and completed a chord sheet that rendered a song he posted for the forum discussion. No cutting/pasting. Just a straight forward, stock RealStyle with a Solo guitar...

As I recall, at that time, no forum member had been able to successfully find a style that fit this particular song. Sound familiar?

RayC: "... the audition have little to nothing to do with "my" perception of the style. ... There are styles galore & for many of my preferred things but the actual tracks within them, and sounds from them, really don't bear even a passing resemblance."

JohnJohnJohn: "Every time I try it I typically get a huge list of styles that sound nothing like the song/band in question."

Lee N: "Not once has it ever found a style that is even close to being remotely similar."

AudioTrack: "Finding a style from inputting a song title rarely gets me in the ballpark."

Furry: "totally agree with this post. I wasted hundreds of hours over the years and seldom got rewarded. "

MarioD: "Same here!"

Shlind: "And here! I have wasted so much time over this."

This isn't about anyone's opinion. My point is today, as opposed to back then, there's thousands more Styles and RealTracks. The StylePicker has been given a major overhaul and upgrade. Therefore, why can't the StylePicker and RealTracks find a stock Style that is remotely similar, in the ballpark song without wasting hundreds of hours?

My take away from Dr. Gannon's post long ago was because one can't do something, doesn't mean it can't be done. Meaning forum users weren't accessing and using all of the tools, features and processes BIAB provided to get the results they were seeking. Dr. Gannon posted an example he presented as an acceptable resemblance to the style and song in question.

I happened to save Dr. Gannon's audio file from that discussion. Dr. Gannon produced his example in minutes using a stock style with a Soloist RealTrack and using the StylePicker filters and the 'Play over current chord chart' feature.

He didn't use the ACW, MIDI, an Artist Performance Track or a User Track. He didn't edit tracks.

How do you folks think Dr. Gannon's example song compares to sounding similar to the song in question?
Is it in the ballpark?

If you achieved his same result from a StylePicker search today, would it be a waste of time?


Song Test File

Charlie, I appreciate you quoting me, but it's unfair and unreasonable to selectively quote only a fragment of my statement. My statement explained my technique in full:
"I generally audition styles manually to select one that fits the genre I require, using the category filters. Finding a style from inputting a song title rarely gets me in the ballpark."

I can use the program whichever way I choose, and I can also make a fair statement about the methods I choose and why I choose them.

Your selectivity in only quoting a fragment of my total comment is quite unreasonable and could easily be taken out of context, which appears to have been the objective in such quoting.

Trevor

I think it would be really useful to have a Video “step by step demo” on how to go about to set up a best match in BIAB for the feel of each of the two songs: Otis Redding cover of “Satisfaction” and the Rolling Stones version as mentioned in one of the posts above. The video to show each step from start to finish for each song with playback from each step so the viewer can see, hear and understand the impact of each step from start to finish, and also to see how close it gets.

There seems to a lot posts on this issue. Maybe PG Music could include such a video, it might clear out many questions relating to a workable workflow for this.

<< I can use the program whichever way I choose, and I can also make a fair statement about the methods I choose and why I choose them. >>

Absolutely! And so can each other poster quoted. Your quote and each of the other quotes are an unaltered complete sentence stating the results returned using the current or past StylePickers to find "Styles that actually sound something like the style name &/or band/song title linked to it."

So if you're saying in context, the method you choose to search "Finding a style from inputting a song title rarely gets me in the ballpark." isn't the result you meant. Post a correction. I merely quoted exactly the 'results' you and the others claim which clearly the results posted now are in context to my post of the similarities between 2014-15 and now.

Your method is different from all of the other posters methods and each of their methods is different from each of the others methods. All of you state similar 'results'. My context for your quote was the similar 'results' obtained. Your post and the others are available in their complete text as each of you initially posted for any reader to decide for themselves the context of how the results are reached.

The objective of my post is that posters today, seven or eight years in the future from a previous post with the same issue appears to yield the same poor 'results' even though PG Music upgraded and overhauled the StylePicker and adding thousands of new styles and RealTracks. I attached Dr. Gannon's example from the past post and asked that as clear example of a specific song, genre, title and band, if it was in the ballpark, similar resemblance.

Regardless of your response Charlie, you selectively only chose to publish one sentence from my two sentence comment. The other sentence was equally important to maintain the context of my statement. You should have included it if you intended to objectively maintain context.

I was objective and discussed both methods that I use.

Yes, of course there will be times when suitable styles can be found. You cited one event yourself.

Sigh...

That's what everyone says: it has nothing to do with this big hotel in California whose name I forgot, hahaha

It's an eternal problem here and will never be solved, everyone has their own milkshake recipe. But I admit that sometimes I like the results of my research.

Here we have "mechanical" recipes (Tempo, Time signature, even, genre) and we would like to make it stick to a groove, which is anything but mechanical, just find a similarity.

Hmmm, interesting thought. Not sure if it "will never be solved". If it is driven by micro-timing, then it can be solved. Computers are very good at timing.

In 1931, Duke Ellington and Irving Mills even dedicated a song to the phenomenon of swing which they called "It Don't Mean a Thing, If It Ain't Got That Swing". Yet, to this day, the question of what exactly makes a jazz performance swing has not really been clarified. A team recently carried out an empirical study into the role played by microtiming in this process - a topic that has hitherto been controversial among music experts and musicologists. Experts refer to tiny deviations from a precise rhythm as "microtiming deviations". The project team has now clarified the controversy about the role of microtiming deviations for the swing feel by digital jazz piano recordings with manipulated microtiming that were rated by 160 professional and amateur musicians with respect to the swing feel.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/01/200129125604.htm

Duly noted. Two methods

No slight intended leaving one out. I only used the one method that matched the point I was making about 'poor results'.

I'm more than willing to accept I may not be using the stylepicker to the best of its abilities, which is why I ended my post with "Unless I'm missing something?".

However, even if this were the case, it still doesn't excuse the fact that the styepicker is non-intuitive and badly designed.

I always find what I'm looking for, if it's available, but it's always much harder and time consuming than it needs to be. Basic filtering that does what it "says," would solve a lot of that. It's really a no-brainer. I can't think of any other software (other than Google search ) that will let you filter results and then fill the result with a majority of non-related stuff.

For example, if I click a genre in the filter ... the reason I clicked it is because that's all I want to see. Instead I get a whole load of non-related noise along with it. This makes drilling down hard work and it makes the filter function almost worthless.

I don't get your point. PGM owner and designer of the software was able to find a style for one specific song using his own software so that somehow proves something? All it proves is the guy who designed the software was able to locate one style that matched his one search. While average users have a far less successful experience using this feature. Make all the excuses you want...the feature is not very effective.

It is good to know that PG experts can use the BIAB tools to create a song with a very good match to the feel of an original song within a few minutes. Then we know that it is possible within the tools of the software, but it DOES NOT help me at all.

It would be of much more help to me if there were some videos available that demonstrates the process in detail.

I am not talking about basic videos that shows how to create some basic backing tracks in BIAB i.e. put in the chords, tempo, key, and time signature and select a suitable style by the style picker, maybe change some instrument - there are plenty of those around - and I think most users are familiar with that.

What I looking for is some videos that demonstrates in detail step by step how to find the right “Feel” of the song that matches the original song as best possible. I also know this is not very creative to try and do a best match to an original song, but I think it is an efficient way to learn and see how far and how a close match one can get within the tools of BIAB, i.e. what to expect from the software. And also to demonstrate how to use the selection and search tools to get precision without being swamped with irrelevant garbage, and especially how to do this in a few minutes.

I've actually given up with a style song search. I usually have a darned good idea of what I need and just build on it.

You could try Henry Clarke's channel on YouTube. I did a search on his page simply for "cover" and had this result: Henry Clarke - "Cover"

I like Henry's videos, they're typically more explanatory that PGM's own videos.

I think playing in bands for many years has been helpful to me in locating styles that get close to cover tunes of pop, country, etc. Working solo, now, and playing basically “older” tunes, it’s rather easy to locate styles that fit the bill. I don’t write or play original material. Many styles will work with multiple songs----so, spread the tunes/styles out, to reduce the amount of style repetition in a given gig. Just for variety’s sake and to be different (at times), I’ll change a bossa to swing, or vice versa. The only area that’s presented some problems (in the past) has been the need for half-time styles, especially in country styles. That area has gotten much better.

Yes, the half-time/double-time was much improved last year, upon user requests in the Wishlist. It applies to samba just as well as country music, and possibly other genres of which I'm not aware.

I have purchased all the styles BIAB makes, and I preview them when I buy them, but I rarely use styles for a song. Styles are just collections of RealTracks and MIDI tracks that PG Music has evaluated and packaged, but if you want to, you can make your own by choosing individual RealTracks (or MIDI). You can then save that style as a user style.

Even so, I always support improvements to make the Style Picker as effective as possible. +1

Nowadays with all the AI support software popping up everywere, maybe PG Music could link into some simple "AI Package" that can analyze the “Feel” of songs and match it into the “best Feel” of available BIAB styles. I don’t know how many parameters that would be required to catch the basic “Feel” probably only a relatively small number compared to matching whole song like Shazam.

+1 on this.
If we could drag-in an MP3 file of a song whose style we want to replicate, and have BiaB choose a style and/or create a style that matches the MP3, that would be great

I'm thinking this would be a big challenge from a computer science/programming perspective and a challenge from a musicology perspective. But I think it is possible. One would have to numerically define what a "style" is, most likely in several dimensions, then determine the style when presented with a specific audio source and then hunt for a similar or exact style in the database. If the style of interest does not exist in the database (which will happen sooner or later) then BiaB would create it so the user can use it.

Edit: I performed a DuckDuckGo search and it yielded a paper that seems to address this very question.

The paper aims to discuss a method for autonomously analyzing a musical style. The algorithm used needs to be shown both positive and negative examples of the style one is trying to teach it. It learns to distinguish the desired musical style from melodies that belong to it and melodies that do not belong to it. The information obtained can later be used for recognizing and/or generating melodies that fit within the analyzed style, a capability that can be of much value in musical creativity.

Warning: This paper is not intended for non-technocrats but the PG Music Development Team may find this to be a useful launching pad if they aren't already aware of it.

https://www.designsociety.org/download-publication/32529/music_style_analysis_using_the_random_forest_algorithm

I come late to this "party" because I wanted to understand how others felt on the topic.
When the "new and improved" Stylepicker was introduced sometime back, I tried it, and like many posters here,
found it less than ideal, and voiced my frustrations.

The (at that time) "new" Stylepicker was quickly defended by PGMusic, citing as I recall, examples of how it could be made to quickly find a style for a particular song.

As I, and many of you have found, it is still less than ideal.

Here's just a small example (and yes, I know it's just one song, but, at least for me, somewhat typical).
In the StylePicker window, in the "Type in a familiar song title ..." box,
enter Somewhere Over The Rainbow, and choose the "Izzy" version.

As you can see by the filter choices (top left), it picks styles with "Lite Pop", "4/4", "Ev16" and "85" attributes.
My "... items in list" count shows 448.
If I auditioned the top 5 or 10 or 20, I wouldn't be satisfied with any of them.

Anyone who has heard this particular version (Izzy's) will know the accompaniment is ukulele.
While you're in the StylePicker window, hit "Clear" and "Refresh" then in the "Filter String" box, type uke.
In my results, the 4th one down is _UKES140 and, if not a dead on match, at least very close and useable.

Well, you say, you can't expect any algorithm to do that. TRUE.
But I don't think it unreasonable to expect that the person at PGM who decided on the "attributes" of this song,
after (I hope) listening to it, wouldn't have figured out that there was a uke playing,
and that one of the existing BIAB styles made with a uke, would fit it better than the "attributes" that were selected.

Perhaps it's not a "person" picking the attributes, but instead, some AI program. Dunno.

My suggestion is, going forward, any new songs added to the available list under "Type in a familiar song title..." be more closely scrutinized by someone, and better choices suggested.
You could leave the ones that come up when you enter in the attributes, but down in the "Memo" box at the bottom,
add "Also try ..." and a few more acceptable suggestions.

(Didn't mean this to be so long but ...)

In that same box, I would like to see "Users suggestions:" and, if I had sent the suggestion for this song to PGM,
through whatever means, _UKES140 would be listed there, and other users would have a useful starting point.

Just my 2 cents (CDN) worth.
LLOYD S

That is an excellent suggestion!
This is the problem I have found also. One song I looked for wasn't listed, and accordingly I suggested it be added via the 'Songs to add to Band-in-a-Box Titles database' section of the forums.

The song has a moderate tempo (140) and to be authentic it must be performed with a 2-beat bass accompaniment.

When the song was eventually added, a Gypsy style with a 4-beat bass line and a tempo of 210 was the best suggestion. Not even slightly close.

If I could have added a 'user suggested style' that got fed back to PG Music, they could then collate all of those user's suggestions and make that feature part of the 'Familiar Song Title' functions.

Yes, and excellent idea.
+1

I agree.

+1

Can you imagine the wealth of style knowledge available from the Forum users?
If every user contributed even a half dozen songs with their suggested style pick,
it wouldn't take long to amass quite a collection.

One step further, if I used a unique combination of RTs etc. to create my own style for a particular song,
I would just name my new style, indicate what RTs and/or MIDI tracks I used, and publish that info to PGM,
similar the the way users now share that info on the User Showcase.

Here's an example: I have a style called _OLSCNTY. (OLS = my initials)
My notes for it say, "mimics TANTUKER", (which is a PGM MIDI style)
and then I've used my own combo of RTs, similar to the way Matt Finley described in his post here.

This is my RT selection for _OLSCNTY
- 1547:Bass ...
- 1549:Piano ...
- RealDrums=NashvilleShuffle^01 (Oh how I wish PGM would NUMBER the RD tracks!)
- 372:Guitar...
- 1134:Pedal Steel ...

Now I open BIAB, click the "Songs Button", click at the top of the "Style" column to sort by that,
scroll down to _OLSCNTY, and here's a sample of the songs for which I have used this style:
- One Smokey Rose
- Swinging Doors
- Send Me The Pillow
- Crazy Arms
- Have I Told You Lately
- Run Before You Crawl

So, if I were a Forum member, wanting to find a style for (say) "Crazy Arms" in BIAB,
I would go to the Style Picker, type Crazy Arms into the "Type in a familiar song title ..." box,
select the entry "Crazy Arms [Ray Price] ..." entry and click "Enter",
the first selection that comes up (in my 271 items list) is _CRAIG which is a "Celtic Jolly Jig"
(not exactly Ray Price material!)

BUT ... I could look at the "Memo" box, scroll to the bottom to find "User Style Suggestion: _OLSCNTY"
and have a more viable starting point.

Perhaps a new Forum here could be the initial repository, say "Users Style Suggestions" or some such.
LLOYD S

Yes, that would be a very helpful feature, a great improvement.
+1

Based on this thread there appears to be 2 different approaches to solve this problem.

Approach 1: The user community would be able to upload their custom made styles that mimics songs (like Crazy Arms) to a "holding pen" along with the message/tag that this custom style mimics Crazy Arms. Then someone at PG Music would confirm that the custom style does in fact match the style of Crazy Arms. Then this new custom style would be associated with Crazy Arms in the next version of BiaB or in the next version of a Styles Pak. This way, if you have the updated version(s) all you would have to do is type in "Crazy Arms" into the search box of the style picker and Lloyd's _OLSCNTY style would be on the list of matching styles for you to choose.

Approach 2: Update the BiaB software with AI capability so that you simply drag-in an MP3 file (a live version of Crazy Arms for example) and the software will analyze it and hunt down a pre-existing style that matches this song. If it can't find a matching style in it's database or you don't like the styles it gives you then you could tell it to create one for you.

Both approaches have advantages and disadvantages.
Is there a 3rd approach?

I would prefer an AI solution if it is possible.

But in the meanwhile anything would be an improvement since the current song title search is more or less completely useless. The suggested “user input solution” could not be very difficult or require much effort to implement, but a problem here would be that it will probably take very long time before any usable “user data” is available so in reality it may not be of very much help in the short term and it would probably be big chunks of holes (songs without any user data) for a long time.

It seems to me that the “song title search” function in BIAB only is setting and selecting four of the basic filter values i.e. Category, Time signature, Feel, and Tempo.

Probably only running the song through some type of player that analyses and find those characteristics, maybe the Feel and Category is put in manually. I don't think anyone is listening to the song and trying to rank the best match in the resulting list.

At least in my simple tests with a few songs I got exactly the same list as a result if I put in those four filter settings manually without song title search, as if I made the search by the song title search function.

And it results in the same sorting order and number of hits. So the sorting order i.e. what is on top of the list I don’t think have anything to do with “the best match” to the song at all. It is only the sorting order given by the software from those four filter parameters.

And I think that is what confuses many users at least myself since I would expect the best match to the feel of the song to be on top of the list. But the list seems to have nothing to do with the particular feel of the given song at all since I get the same result if I put in the same four parameters myself with out the song title search at all.

To me a very important component to the feel of a song is the Drum pattern as well as Bass, but as far as I can see there is no matching to best drum pattern at all.

I find this subject absolutely fascinating in part because of the complexity it embodies. In my career I’ve needed to deal with, embrace and at times, crush complexity so that the goals of the project could be met. Thousands of people do this daily across most any domain.

It appears that for this issue to truly be resolved, a technical definition for what a genre/style is, compatible with machine coding or machine searching has to be developed. For the Berklee Musicologists and other experts out there do you think developing such a crisp definition is even possible, say in the next 5 years or so? I have no doubts that at some point this will be solved.

I’ve pondered this question for only a few days now and I’m gaining a deeper appreciation for what the programmers at PG Music face when trying to create a robust Style Picker. I wouldn’t mind informally working on this problem with others. But I suspect we will face a wall very quickly when we realize that styles and genres are subsets of music and music embodies human emotion and various cultural contexts. Defining emotion and context algorithmically or even with neural nets or random forests will require much inter-disciplinary brain power. 1300 genres may not seem like a big number until you try to encode your 1st genre . . . like I say, fascinating subject.

The following is a small section taken from an article at ProMusicianHub.com, I think it’s a good read to help get your arms around this topic.

https://promusicianhub.com/what-is-music-genre/

“A music genre is a classification system that classifies music into different styles. It’s the art of incorporating instrumental and vocal tones in a structured manner that gives the music its distinctive character. As a result, all artistic compositions that belong to the same music genre share some similarities in form or style. The word genre is used in other forms of art, including literature, television, cinema, and other artistic creation types. It combines pieces of work that fit under a specific category after analyzing and highlighting the most distinctive elements.

In addition to pure genres, crossover genres are also popular. These combine several elements from different elements to create a new style that appeals to a wider audience. This technique is widely used in popular music. However, it’s quite common for a musical piece to belong to several genres at the same time. Music genres can refer to when the music was composed, its style, the instruments used and their functions, and the music’s geographical origin. In other words, there’s no one clear comprehensive definition that explains what different music genres are. Even within a single system, there is some disagreement about the interpretations of the elements used to categorize music composition.

For example, some researchers state that the Classical period which marks the creation and popularity of Classical music, lasted from 1730 or 1750 to 1830. However, some researchers say that this period started in the 1780s or later in the 1790s. Both interpretations are accepted.”

As a former programming professor, I concur that defining the problem is the most important step. There actually has been a lot more discussion about the style picker among some of us who test the program, and the developers participate.

As I mentioned above, I usually don’t even use the style picker. My compositions cross genres.

For those interested in what makes up the psychological groove factor in a song/drum pattern. I found an interesting research article. It may give some input to what to listen to in the music when trying to match a suitable style with a resemblance in the feel/grove of a song. I found the parameters as drum pattern category, syncopation and event density to be particular interesting. One problem now is how I will be able to hear variances in this in the music I am working on.

Link to the research article “Groove in drum patterns as a function of both rhythmic properties and listeners’ attitudes (the paper can be downloaded as PDF)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6025871/

All the input data, drum patterns, notation, midi and MP3 are available for download if anyone is interested.
https://www.grooveresearch.ch/index.php?downloads

Thanks for sharing this paper, I read the abstract and introduction. I would never have thought that groove itself would be a serious topic of research. “The empirical study of groove as a research field within music psychology, however, only dates back to the early 2000s.” More power to these researchers in Switzerland.

My vision for this overall subject is to one day be able to mix 2 different styles to produce a new style. We probably all remember when Grunge emerged from Seattle in the 1980s from a fusion of Punk and Heavy Metal. How cool would it be if you heard an awesome new style/genre for the first time . . . that you created on your desktop computer by blending 25% Reggae with 75% Red Dirt Country?

Science fiction you think? You’re right. And at one point in the past both BiaB and AI were science fiction, yet both are readily available today.

Can't you do that right now in BiaB? Take tracks from different styles to create a new style? I don't know if you can save a new style in BiaB as I have never tried that and today life is getting in the way so I can't try it myself. But I do know that you can take different tracks and save them in your DAW; that would give you a new style but you won't be able to save it as a BiaB style.

Mario, I don't think BiaB or any other program can do this at this point in history, that's why it's a vision. I'm not talking about exporting stems, tracks or songs from BiaB and manually mixing them in a DAW.

Rather, this is about creating a brand new style/genre that you've never heard before by mixing/blending 2 existing styles algorithmically aka in software, via digital signal processing and other automated operations.

For example, 20 somethings (plus perhaps a little recreational chemistry) fused Punk and Heavy Metal to produce Grunge. As a test, I'd like software that can repeat this and a few other examples to convince me that it can be done; then I'd ask it to fuse other styles that haven't been fused yet such as Reggae and Red Dirt Country.

Not human-in-the-loop, but software-in-the-loop per the block diagram.

If I'm wrong (and I hope I am), what page of the BiaB manual says that this can be done?

You can kind of mix two styles now. The limitation is you can't play two styles simultaneously. MultiStyle plays back the audio from either one style or another style. What doesn't blend together is the artificial intelligence that is unique and built-in to each style. To me that would be like hearing two people try to talk at the same time.

Of course, when we talk about mixing two different styles to produce a third, we're talking about producing a third style that is pleasing to the musician and non-muscian ear. Something that would produce a following. Otherwise, what's the point in producing noise?

From Wikipedia "Grunge (sometimes referred to as the Seattle sound) is an alternative rock genre and subculture that emerged during the mid-1980s in the American Pacific Northwest state of Washington, particularly in Seattle and nearby towns. Grunge fuses elements of punk rock and heavy metal, but without punk's structure and speed."

It's funny. I don't particularly care for Punk or Heavy Metal but when elements of these two were "mixed" I do like the sound of Grunge. Go figure.

I just found this online AI-service tool for extracting instruments from an audio file.

LALALAI
https://www.lalal.ai/

I have only played around with the free version extracting out various instruments drums, bass etc.
I am impressed, I have tried several ways to extract drums from mp3 before e.g. various EQs,inversion, Drum Remover plug ins but nothing have produced anything useful at all.

This AI tool could be of help for a user when analysing a song arrangement trying to hear the various instruments in an existing arrangement.

It is very simple to use just select which instrument to separate and drop the the mp3 file in the browser. The free version does only give a sample of the song and it is only for listening no file produced. (But it is quite easy to record what is played back on the PC eg with Audacity with the interface set to loopback what is played in the speakers and record it (Windows WASAPI)).

While waiting for improvements of the search concept in the style picker, here are some ideas and suggestions for some improvements in the style picker search mechanism:

1.Style Picker GUI: Make it more efficient to review a selected set of styles.
Today the user have to:
a) select the style
b) klick on the Play button (against my chords or the demo)
c) go to a) above

This is very time consuming, a suggestion is:
I. Allow a selection of styles, by marking up and selecting them one by one or as chunks (e.g. by use of the shift key as in most other software e.g. like marking up text rows in MS Word).
II. Allow the user to step to the next style in the marked up list and play it by a simple klick on Play.
This will allow users to review the styles more efficiently just by making a selection of styles, then only to klick Play to step through the list and play the styles one by one.

2. Real Drums Picker GUI: Make it more efficient to review a set of drum styles.
I. Basically it is the same problem in the Real Drums picker GUA as in the Style picker GUI. It has the same problems i.e. the user have to select one item from the list then klick play, then select another item, then klick play etc, very time consuming (improvement as suggested above).
II. Another improvement would be to be able to a tick box to “collapse” all variants of the same drum patterns. This will provide a more compact view of the overall drum patterns when trying to find the overall right feel in the drums patterns.
III. Another improvement would be to have an option to go back and forth from the current marked up selection in the style picker and having a drum style selected in the marked up drum list. Then the user can continue to review the narrowed down styles in the selected styles list that contains the particular drums. I know it is possible to add a search criterion in the style picker for this but it would be so much easier and more efficient if one could go back and forth between the style picker and drum picker keeping the selections and trying out various items from the selections. I also know that the drum picker lists the styles that have a particular drum style in a tiny window, this is of some help but it is not efficient having to go back to the style picker to check out those styles one by one and in between each review have to look up the drum styles again to check the list of styles unless I write them down and tick them of manually.

3. General point of table search in the GUIs. A general point to narrowing down the search in tables in the style picker and drum picker and in searching tables in general:
I. Provide a “hierarchy column sort”. I.e to be able to sort one column, this is possible today, then mark up a selection of items from that column and continue to make a sort of another column within that selection (keeping the previous column selection) etc. That is how most table searching GUIs work. In BIAB today all previous column sort orders disappears when sorting a new column.


4. Help to find a good match to the Feel/Groove of a particular song:
The current song title search function as today only helps out by setting four of the filter parameters “Cathegory, Time Signature, Feel, Tempo”. It does not rank or sort the list in any order for how well the styles reassembles the Feel/Grove of the song at all. If I make a test and put in these four parameters manually I will get the exact same result i.e. the same list in the same order without any connection to the Feel/Groove of the song. It is a good start to get this help in setting these filter parameters by the software (but on the other hand it is not very difficult to listen to the song and set them manually).

I think the Drum Pattern Matrix is one major component in order to find something that sounds reasonable similar to the song to match the feel/groove of.
And that is more or less what Henry Clarke uses in his work flow as mentioned in one of the posts and links above, but he does it manually by ear and by help of a midi file.
I. It would be very useful if BIAB could provide some level of support for this in the software i.e. “Best Matching Drums” at least for the case where the user can provides a midi file including the drums.
Preferably resulting in a list of Real Drums/ Midi Drums in Ranking order (like EZDrummer %match). Any level of help framing it down would be useful.
Then from that list of best matching drums a simple way back to the filtered list of styles with all the styles that have the selected drum pattern marked up (as mentioned in 2. above).

II. To match the drums in an mp3 song file is probably not an easy task. But maybe it is possible to provide some simple function for the user to “tap in the basic feel” and the BIAB then helps out sorting out the best and most likely matches from the drum list in the same way as for the midi case above.