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Songwriting
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Is it possible that a person is able to ONLY write music and not lyrics? I have been stuck on a song for longer than I can admit to. I have the music essentially done, Guitar, Piano, drums, bass and the song structure completed, Intro, verse, verse, Bridge, Chorus, Verse, Instrumental Break, verse, ending. I even created a melody (with help). But dispite all the work, no lyrics. I don't consider this to be a writers block since best I can recall I have only written lyrics once in my life. But at this time I feel the need to get this done. I want to do it myself so I am not looking for a colaboration (well, at least at this time). Any words of wisdom on how I actually make this happen! Or is this just a stupid question.  Dan
Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper
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See ChatGPT posts for those of use having difficulty with lyric writing.....
 Steve BIAB/RB 2022, Pro Tools 2020, Korg N5, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
PC: Win11 PRO, 4 TB M2 SSD, 2 TB HD, 128 GB Memory
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Thanks Steve for the push in a direction. I just created a catchy phrase as a song title and asked ChatGPT for lyrics. ...They are surprizingly good!  But will they "fit my song"? My new lyrics are clever and witty with a bit of humor. But my music is a minor chord progression which is sad and dark at 90 bpm. Stay tuned.
Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper
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.................... Or is this just a stupid question. Dan No. I can come up with melodies and chord most of the time. But I can rarely come up with lyrics.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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I can come up with melodies and chord most of the time. But I can rarely come up with lyrics. You and me both my friend.
Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper
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Sounds a lot like me.  Writing lyrics first is much easier. The other way around, my process is ploddingly painful. I listen to the song and try to get an impression of the mood and feeling. Who could be expressing this? What might their story be? I'll put up dummy lyrics that match the melody, no matter how incoherent they are. It lets me see the meter, and gives me something to rewrite. Generally, the verse explains and justifies the chorus. So if you work on the chorus first, you then write a narrative that gets you to that conclusion. If you start with a verse, then you try to figure out a chorus that acts as a logical conclusion of the verse. Typically, I'll accidentally end up writing all my ideas into the first verse, so I'll have to split it into parts so there's something to say on the second and third verse. Then it's just a matter of rewriting, keeping the good stuff and rewriting the less good parts. Using something like Rhymezone to come up with rhymes and words is really helpful, because my first ideas are just regurgitated cliches. Try to make each of the verses say something new, so there's forward momentum in the song. Don't be afraid to shuffle ideas around. The first verse should try to hook the listener in with a provocative line. It's a good place to set up the scene and attitude. Think of it like an establishing shot of a movie. The second verse could talk about how you've arrived, and what's preventing you from moving from that point. Or add more detail to what you started - give information that changes how the listener might have originally been thinking. My biggest mistake is forgetting that a song - unlike a story - doesn't have to resolve. Simply stating a problem or feeling is enough. There's no need to over-explain something. Now I need to finish that unfinished song of mine that's been sitting on the hard drive...
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Writing lyrics first is much easier. Good advice David, Looks like I fell into this first trap. But my initial thoughts are I can readily adjust the music to fit these new lyrics.
Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper
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My new lyrics are clever and witty with a bit of humor. But my music is a minor chord progression which is sad and dark at 90 bpm. Stay tuned. The key to get the lyrics you want is to give the AI as much detail as possible up front. Tell it sad, dark, 90 bpm and it should get closer. I even tell it how many lines/syllables per line I want.
Steve BIAB/RB 2022, Pro Tools 2020, Korg N5, JBL LSR 4328 Powered Monitors, AKG/Shure Mics.
PC: Win11 PRO, 4 TB M2 SSD, 2 TB HD, 128 GB Memory
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I wrote the music to a song thirty years ago. I finally finished the lyrics last year.
You can force things, get ideas from other people, use AI, steal what every you think you can get away with from other songs.
None of that will likely work very well. Take the pressure off and just let it happen. It will take as long as it takes. Just my experence.
Many of the best songs were written by teams of people. Asking for help is what professionals do.
Something Henley said about their songwriting.
"They're the same themes that run through all of our work: loss of innocence, the cost of naiveté, the perils of fame, of excess; exploration of the dark underbelly of the American dream, idealism realized and idealism thwarted, illusion versus reality, the difficulties of balancing loving relationships and work, trying to square the conflicting relationship between business and art; the corruption in politics, the fading away of the Sixties dream of "peace, love and understanding."
Best of luck Dan.
Billy
Last edited by Planobilly; 04/13/23 07:13 PM.
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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Yep.... While you might not want to collaborate with someone, look into the app that Joanne is developing.
It started out pretty plain vanilla but she continues to work on it adding new features. She's working on a version where you can define the number of syllables in the lines to fit the rhythmic pattern you're hearing. It's currently capable of rewriting the previous draft.
For me...it's a great way to get an idea started that I will then edit and embellish as I see fit. I have yet to get something completed that started with the AI seed. Most of what it generates, to me, is not ready for prime time because it tends to get stuck in a rut and it rehashes the same idea over and over rather than being creative like the human mind is capable of.
Anyway.... Just a bunch of random thoughts on what might help.... or not
You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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Is it possible that a person is able to ONLY write music and not lyrics? Writing lyrics first is much easier. Hehehe, and here comes the oddball: I can do neither lyrics nor melody aloneLyrics first: forget it. Kills me to find a suitable chord progression, let alone a melody. Melody first: not a problem per se, but with every extra word I write, I change the melody because ... hmmm, dunno. It feels wrong. A friend suggested it's some kind of synesthesia, but I don't know. And there's no point in writing a melody if you change it later with each word, so I write both at the same time. Maybe Dan can try a similar approach?
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Really appreciate the comments folks. I feel like this is the time for be to dive in headfirst and knowing that others have tested the waters ahead of me makes me feel a bit more confident.
Dan, BIAB2024, SoundCloud Win11, i7(12thGen), 32GB, 1TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD), 2TB Libraries, 1 TB(WD-Black), 2TB SSD(M.2 NVMe SSD)Data, Motu Audio Express, Keystation 61, SL88 Studio, Reaper
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Making a "good" song alone is a huge deal. The more instrumentation, the more complex the job becomes.
You may or may not agree with the following statement.
"A song is a composition made up of lyrics and music, with the intent of the lyrics being sung, for the purpose of producing a proportionate feeling or emotion in relation to a particular matter."
BMI is a good source of ideas.
A quoit
"In many instances, multiple writers contribute to the topline, with one or more of them contributing the lyrics and others crafting the vocal melody. In some cases, one writer might compose the verse melody while another writes the chorus melody. Similarly, a backing track might be created by more than one writer. For example, one writer might create the beats, while others compose the chord changes and instrumental sounds with the piano and guitar."
It is certainly possible to write lyrics to pre-existing music. It is also possible to write music to pre-existing lyrics. Bernie Turpin writes lyrics for Elton John, and Elton devises the music with little interaction with Bernie.
Because we have software, BIAB, and many others, which can provide the different elements needed to construct a song, it is theoretically possible to create a "good Song" alone. Still, other than some accidental combination, understanding of and a skill level with the different elements is needed.
Even if someone has all the needed skills, the limitations of the software confine the song to those limits and processes.
Popular styles often would include drums, bass, keyboards, guitar, and vocals to include the lyrics.
If, for example, you are a "skilled" Drummer, bass player, keyboard player, lyricist, top-line writer, arranger, producer, guitar player, mixing engineer, mastering engineer, and a dozen or more other skills, it should be simple to write "good songs" alone...lol
Some good songs do get written by only one person, but in today's world, teams of people are the most common way complex things get done.
I write lyrics that, in my own opinion, are sometimes good, sometimes bad, and mainly irreverent to anyone else but me. As a result, I don't stress too much over the quality or what anyone else thinks about them.
Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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Is it possible that a person is able to ONLY write music and not lyrics?
Dan Very possible. Ever hear of the songwriting team of Bernie Taupin and Elton John? One provides the lyrics and the other the music.
Jim Fogle - 2024 BiaB (1111) RB (5) Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk by BandLab (CbB) - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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You could try the "David Bowie method". In a nutshell, take snippets from books, papers, poems, or anything really. Cut them up into chunks and rearrange. Fill in some blanks if needed. As an obscure source of inspiration (works for any creative work, plus more I would thing), I'm going to also mention Oblique Strategies developed by Brian Eno. https://www.oblique-strategies.com/(Refresh the page for a new "strategy") PS. Lyrics do not come naturally for me either and this is true for a lot of composers throughout the history. As a result, there's been many composer/lyricist duos formed.
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....................
You may or may not agree with the following statement.
"A song is a composition made up of lyrics and music, with the intent of the lyrics being sung, for the purpose of producing a proportionate feeling or emotion in relation to a particular matter."
..........................
Billy
I respectfully do not agree with that statement because it ignores all of the instrumentals that have ever been recorded, including classical music. I would say "A song is a composition made up of a melody and supporting music, with the intent of the melody, whether it be a vocal or and an instrumental, for the purpose of producing a proportionate feeling or emotion in relation to a particular matter." This may be splitting hairs but your statement indicates that a song must have a vocal. At least in my mind it did
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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@Billy That is just the textbook definition of the word. If the "song" doesn't have lyrics, the piece of music is classified as something else. I.e. there are no pieces of classical music that are defined as a song that does not have lyrics. Actually, I can't think of any that are "songs". The closest to a classical "song" would probably be an aria. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/song@Planobilly A bit further down the same Wikipedia article: Through semantic widening, a broader sense of the word "song" may refer to instrumentals, such as the 20th century Songs Without Words pieces for solo piano.
Last edited by Chicago; 04/14/23 11:19 AM.
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Well, Mario, I also agree with you. I could have provided more clarity and said this statement was directed toward the lyrical context of popular vocal music.
The general idea also applies to instrumental music.
It does not necessarily apply to all songs/music, or at least to the same degree. Not all music compositions have a melody or lyrics, and even if they have some sort of melody, they can be very subservient to the rhythmic function of the music.
One issue is that not all of us consider many words to mean the same thing.
The word "song," for example.
Merriam Websters
song
noun
1
: the act or art of singing
2
: poetical composition
3
a
: a short musical composition of words and music
b
: a collection of such compositions
4
: a distinctive or characteristic sound or series of sounds (as of a bird, insect, or whale)
5
a
: a melody for a lyric poem or ballad
b
: a poem easily set to music
6
a
: a habitual or characteristic manner
b
: a violent, abusive, or noisy reaction
put up quite a song
7
: a small amount
sold for a song
There exist relatively precise terms to express musical ideas. They are not very often used when discussing popular music in general conversations on most forums. That is a good thing from my perspective because I don't know what every one of the terms means.
Precision in written communications on forums rarely exists.
Billy
New location, new environment, new music coming soon
Seize the moo-ment
If you feel like you’ve herd all these cow puns before, you probably have deja-moo
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Well I stand corrected. My definition of the word song isn't on your list, however your list is the "official" definition. I did a search and all of my searches yielded the identical results. My definition is that a song contains three main ingredients, a melody, a chord progression, and a rhythm. But what do I know as I was taught that many many years ago  Have a good day.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
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To come up with lyrics to an already finished piece of music, I'd probably start by taking note of how I feel as I listen. Perhaps that would lead to writing down those feelings or impressions and that in turn might lead to more specific ideas and eventually to the point of the song or the message I want to convey. Brainstorming, I guess.
Dark and gloomy -> trouble -> what kind of trouble -> relationship, money, car trouble....
If you think about it, you probably already have some ideas for what the song 'could' be about. Write them down. See if any of them appeal to you. Ask yourself why? Write down the answers.
Is there a title? If so, why did you choose it?
Good luck:)
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