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Hey, I am asking a weird question to see how you songwriters answer in a poll. I know, I know, the question I am asking can always get the answer: "Well it depends." But I would like to hear your answer if you were forced to pick. Why? Because I am doing a lot of co-writes and collabs all over the place, and I am definitely a "gotta have a beat and a groove guy." To ME (and just me), a song has to have a great groove and a great beat first and foremost if it is going to turn me on (and I mean that literally, because I think music is sensual), and then come the chords after that. I do love me a good set of lyrics now, but I see the lyrics as having to "serve" the music, not the other way around. But that is just me, and I know others start with lyrics, and find music to fit. For me, truth me told, the title, hook and music usually all come at the same time when I am jamming, but I don't usually get too interested if there in't a groove. So, ladies and gents.... If you HAD to pick, what serves what? Do the lyrics serve the music, or does the music serve the lyrics? For this poll, you can't say "it depends." You have to pick one.  I just wanna know how other people see it.
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There is no "Poll" button? Anyway... We 2 don't always agree when it comes to music, but here I'm 100% with you: the groove, the beat, the chords, in that order. If that grabs me, I don't really care about the rest. Simple example: I LOVE Stevie Wonder's voice, but I could listen to the intro of Superstition for hours, over and over. No vocals needed  There are, of course, some a cappella exceptions where I just love the voice(s), but in general the music comes first for me.
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The music is first. I view lyrics without music as a poem. Sometimes lyrics or an idea for lyrics will come first but it's not a song until there is music to be heard.
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[quote=David Snyder]
.........................
I do love me a good set of lyrics now, but I see the lyrics as having to "serve" the music, not the other way around. But that is just me, and I know others start with lyrics, and find music to fit......................./quote]
I agree. The lyrics and/or the lead instruments(s) must serve the music.
{edit} PS - You can start with the lyrics but you must generate a groove and chord progression that the lyrics can serve. Same end result just different methods to get there.
Last edited by MarioD; 06/04/23 04:26 PM.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
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Proportionally I've started with lyrics 1st for about 75% of my stuff.
I had a bank of lyrics waiting for songs but as I'm spending more time with the music side of things I've had less time to write lyrics I've depleted my swag and have had to write "on demand" of late.
For me, usually, the music carries the mood and intent of the lyric rather than the reverse.
This is probably why a) my songs are wordy and b) the music of my songs lack familiarity.
Writing to match the music usually leaves me with more impressionistic, vague lyrics that, when spoken/sung, have a "sound" more than a narrative. There's also a matter of the melody being an after though along with the words if I work this way.
Instrumental songs don't have a lyric, (though there is a vocabulary), but they, usually, have a melody & a "voice".
I'm part way through an instrumental song because I lack the lyrics, the parts are too long for my very limited vocal range to maintain interest and it makes an interesting change. I've chosen cello as the "voice" because it's not far away from a human baritone AND I know a good cellist.
Last edited by rayc; 06/04/23 04:43 PM.
Cheers
rayc
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Music takes precedence for me. A catchy tune first gets me paying attention and then I'll take more notice of the lyrics.
I rarely (if ever) heard of a 'hook' that was based on the lyrics of a song.
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I rarely start with music but sometimes I do. Normally, after the first few lines, I'll know the structure. I may compose the tune next or complete the lyric to a dummy melody that will be replaced by something later. The lyric is not finalized until the tune is composed. My very last step is arranging and adding chords — I'll often do a Lead Sheet first as that can point to weakness n the structure.
So, for me, the correct answer really is, "It all depends."
The late, great Burt Bacharach, when asked the same question, replied, "No one ever left a theater humming the lyrics."
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I rarely (if ever) heard of a 'hook' that was based on the lyrics of a song. I can only guess that you don't listen to pop music.
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Very interesting Mike.
Mine is similar but I usually start out humming a title and a hook..and have the first two lines or so of the chorus immediately.
And I can feel the groove and tempo in my bones.
Then the steps are very similar.
Final chords come last.
The Bacharach quote is great.
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We are cheating ... please don't send the poll officers for us. Answer: Neither For us soul stands over all. No lyric or groove sans soul works for us. If you want to punish us for cheating you can ask us to define soul. J&B
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For me (primarily a bass player and guitarist) . . . Lyrics is the key. Most of my favorite songs "have something to say" or make me feel something (watch the video for Craig Morgan's "This Ain't Nothin'" or Todd Snider's "You Think You Know Somebody" or even "E" by Matt Mason for examples). I also have a friend (a singer I have been in several bands with) who hates what he calls my "story songs" and he's all about the guitar and instrumentation and doesn't care if the lyrics are 20 words repeated here and there.
That said - There are songs like "A Thousand Teardrops" by Shadowfax or "One Of These Days" by Pink Floyd that, while completely devoid of lyrics, still managed to make me feel something . . .
~Russell~
Last edited by Sawmill Music; 06/08/23 09:45 AM.
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Bud and Janice, I used to have a group called Family of Soul and we looked like Earth, Wind and Fire...except for me, the mascot. Suffice it to say, I have been in the Temple of Soul. And I have never left. Word.
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I rarely (if ever) heard of a 'hook' that was based on the lyrics of a song. I can only guess that you don't listen to pop music. 100%
Cheers
rayc
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"I rarely (if ever) heard of a 'hook' that was based on the lyrics of a song."
Really?
Police/Sting, Bob Marley, U2, RHCP and thousands of others had/have earworm lyric based hooks.
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"I rarely (if ever) heard of a 'hook' that was based on the lyrics of a song."
Really?
Police/Sting, Bob Marley, U2, RHCP and thousands of others had/have earworm lyric based hooks.
“When I think back on all the crap I learned in high school, it’s a wonder I can think at all.” Still my favorite opening line ever. There are a couple thousand from Stephen Foster, James Brown, The Beatles, Buddy Holly etc. vying for second place, I suppose. I didn’t think much of the rest of Kodachrome® but that first line caused me to run down to Tower Records and buy There Goes Rhymin’ Simon in 1973. It wasn’t the music.
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You can find my music at: www.herbhartley.comAdd nothing that adds nothing to the music. You can make excuses or you can make progress but not both. The magic you are looking for is in the work you are avoiding.
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I fully realize both are important of course.
For this experiment I wanted to see if any songwriters felt that the music primarily inspires, drives and shapes the lyrics, or if it is the other way around.
For me, the music drives and shapes the lyrics once I have the hook, title and some of the chorus.
Just curious about other people's process.
As for the soul part I almost feel that goes without saying, for what I do. It is all about soul. The soul is what writes the lyrics really, not me.
It does not come from my head it comes from my soul.
This is an interesting exchange. Thanks for sharing.
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"I rarely (if ever) heard of a 'hook' that was based on the lyrics of a song."
Really?
Police/Sting, Bob Marley, U2, RHCP and thousands of others had/have earworm lyric based hooks.
I guess different people think about different things differently. The hook that gets my attention and is far more catchy for me is a musical hook. Of course there are lyrical hooks. To each his own. I just stated my own opinion. I didn't state what other opinions should be, nor that any other opinions were questionable. Some guessed that I don't listen to pop music. They only guessed, and would actually be 100% wrong.
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Audio Track,
Right. That was the point. I think we all know both are important I just thought it would be interesing to have songwriters say which one is the primary driver for them, if they had to make a choice.
For example, Elton John has said (and demonstrated) that he can write a song to a telephone book or cookbook, but is still glad he has Bernie Taupin.
It was just an exercise, because I am interested in the different processes.
Thanks for your contribution.
Listeners are different of course.
If someone were to ask me what the most memorable, airtight, unforgettable, most catchy opening hook of all time is, if I could only pick one, I would say, without hesitation:
Walk this Way.
Opening Riff.
Aerosmith.
#2
Opening Piano Riff.
Tiny Dancer.
Elton John.
The list after that goes into the thousands.
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The Peter Jackson "Let it Be" documentary. They worked on music with lyrics absent, in fragments, unfinished and/or unpolished. Clearly the music was most important. But it's not a song until it's sung. To my mind, that is axiomatic. To be a song, it must have lyrics--even if they are uber-simple and repetitive. Since your question was to and about song-writers/writing, that's the only answer that makes sense.
The most important part of songwriting is to start. If you don't start, you can't finish. The second most important part, is probably to finish. You reckon? If you don't finish, it's not finished. For me, the last part to completely come together--to finish--is most often the lyrics. No longer absent, in fragments, unfinished, or (hopefully) unpolished. I can't recall ever writing a song with "dummy/stand-in" music. Nearly everything I've written has had some degree of "stand-in/dummy" lyric before it was finished. I also can't recall a song when either was completely finished before the other was well on it's way...except certain collaborations. But I've no doubt they would have proceeded differently if we'd been in the same room.
So my "vote" is...music is boss. But music without lyrics is not song-writing.
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I'll add this bit. For me, the "definition" of the lyric also includes the vocal melody, the phrasing and rhythm of the words, and the "sound" of the words...all of which are integral to the music. I very rarely set poems to music. If something is going to change during the course of writing in service to the song, it's the lyric which usually gives way first...unless I've written a stellar line. Even then, I've written it in a way to be sung. Which is part of the music.
So music is boss, but the lyric is integral to the music. Which is boss.
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That is very interesting Tangmo.
I started the thread because I was interested in how other people work, knowing that not everyone works the same, nor do they need to, nor are they supposed to, of course.
There is a pretty funny Rolling Stones recording I heard off of a live album that recorded the sessions when they were writing the song Miss You. It started out with Billy Preston and Mick Jagger just jamming and Mick Jagger was just babbling incoherent nonsense into the microphone forever until he finally started singing fragments of the words that appear in the song as it exists now. ".....and, ugh....I miss you!"
I remember laughing really hard when I heard that because that's kind of how I write. I just can't write without jamming.
So I'll just sit there and jam away on the piano or guitar or whatever forever and then finally some words start coming out of my mouth that seem like they would make a good hook and then it kind of takes off from there.
Not saying that this is how it should be done, but it never really works for me to not have some kind of musical groove first to write the lyrics to.
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David, I may not be as groovy as you, but I pretty much agree. I usually won't even bother starting a song if I don't have a bit of lyric (with melody and a way to sing it rhythmically), but music most often drives the lyric rather than the other way round and neither gets too far ahead of the other. I've written other ways, so I know they too are possible from my own experience. But writing to a groove is absolutely my preference.
If it's not EASIER to write like that, it's definitely more fun. Rock on.
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Hi David,
I hope that you and your family are keeping well. This is just my humble take on your question.
I agree with Tangmo. Music stands alone. I suspect that that's why classical composers are still enjoyed by many people. The successful ones have somehow managed to tap into pysches and captivate people's imaginations. Lyrics, on the other hand, are often not strong enough to stand alone as poetry. As Tangmo has pointed out, good lyrics are those that support the musicality of the song. For me, all the sonic lyric devices (such as rhyme, assonance, consonance, repetition, onomatopoeia, syllabic stress, etc.) are important to the production of the final presentation.
My own style of writing used to be just melody and accompaniment. I had no idea how to fit words to music. Then, in the early 2000s, I met Pat Pattison. I attended many of his seminars, and through his teaching, I learnt many strategies for putting words together. These days, most of my songs start with words. I often create a verse and a chorus before I start thinking about melody and chord progressions. Sometimes I do this with drums playing in the background, and sometimes it's just the rhythmic flow of the words' stressed and unstressed syllables. While I'm working with words, I find the rhyming sequences usually develop as well.
If I initially start creating a song from lyrics, when I start setting the words to music, lyrics and music go hand in hand. Because I notate all my songs, lyrics, music and chords often change as I zigzag my way to the final product.
Recently, I set a poem to music, Elizabeth Barrett Browing's "How Do I Love Thee" (Sonnet #43). Out of respect for Barrett Browning (1806–1861), I tried to keep the first verse poetically accurate. In the end, I found that I added a word that Barrett Browning didn't use. After the first verse, though, I used fragments of the poem's words along with my words to create a song. It was an interesting experience.
As I said, this is just how I do things. I don't know whether or not it's useful information.
All the best,
--Noel
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I likely should have read this thread, but way too long for my attention span.
So I will only add, Paul wrote the music to Let it Be in a couple hours. It took a couple of weeks to get the words written. Which is why I vote: lyrics are most important.
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I am confused. If Paul wrote the music in 4 minutes, but took a month to write the lyrics, doesn't that mean the lyrics came last? Hmmmmm....... Maybe I should have read my own post. Too busy though. And I'm working on this ice cream cone. God save the Queen man! Dog-faced pony....uh...something.... Bye....
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OK, enough is enough.
This is the final Music or Lyrics: Which One Is the Boss answer:
I am the boss!
I will decide which one comes first!
Case closed.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
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I like Mário's humor and at the same time how he stands up for himself, and as a lyricist I wrote lyrics for professional bands in our small country, so I should stand on the other side of Mário. But I don't stand elsewhere and agree with Mario that the song has melody, harmony and rhythm. It is defined that way and it comes from many years of experience and not from one head. And both lyrics and a song without lyrics can exist independently and thus be useful independently. But a good song is created in the cooperation of text and music and in the interplay of both. Both forms help each other in several of their parameters, and for example, let's name two that are among the most important, if we leave out the content of the text and the musical style of the song. And that is the sonority of the text and for the music the dynamics (not included in the definition of the song), in which interplay is what should work. And what else is applied to make the song as good as possible. It starts with the arrangement and then comes the professional sound and the better the performer the better and at the same time the band and much more. And finally, a song has to be lucky beyond just entering the world at the right time in the right place. My experience when listening to the charts is that my favorite song drops out prematurely at, say, the sixtieth place and then I never hear it again. What I wrote is not my wisdom, but I just summarized what I have collected in my life. I am 72 years old and have been playing guitar since I was 10 years old. Due to health reasons, I stopped playing the guitar and I am grateful to the music software that I can continue to play music, especially the software from PGMUSIC, with which I start when creating songs and which I return to when improving songs. As a lyricist I worked with professional bands from our Czech Republic, but as a musician I feel like an amateur and I don't make a living from music, but music is the spiritual delicacy of my retired life. My texts and my music are registered - the copyright protection association "Ochranný Svaz Autorský- OSA", which represents me, and we probably have it easier than many places around the world. I don't care what I start with, whether it's music or text, and often it was created at the same time and in different ways and procedures. I learned to arrange, but with the sound I go to the studio with a friend - a professional sound engineer. I appreciate my gifts of singing, writing, composing and arranging, but there are enough better singers, lyricists, composers and arrangers than me in our country, let alone in the whole world. However, it doesn't matter to me as an amateur, I always have someone to learn from. I apologize for using Google translator to translate from Czech to English, because I don't speak English well and it may happen that I miss something from Mario's good humor.
Last edited by Gause Zdenek; 06/17/23 06:14 AM.
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I likely should have read this thread, but way too long for my attention span.
So I will only add, Paul wrote the music to Let it Be in a couple hours. It took a couple of weeks to get the words written. Which is why I vote: lyrics are most important. Bad example that defies logic. He took weeks to get a mediocre lyric into shape. This tune, as an instrumental, has been covered thousands of times and is a background music staple. Tons of great songs have terrible lyrics. Bang a Gong comes to mind immediately.
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I'll add this bit. For me, the "definition" of the lyric also includes the vocal melody, the phrasing and rhythm of the words, and the "sound" of the words...all of which are integral to the music. … No. We’re using the English language as a communication medium here. The Lyrics are the words. When you ascribe musical qualities to those words, you are talking about music. Yes, really. Rap is a great example, especially in the early days when there was often no melody at all: it was still words and music. People have been having that discussion for hundreds of years.
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don't think there's an answer
there are hundreds (at least) of jazz standards that have long ago effectively left their lyrics in the dust. Many of the old timers on this thread may remember Frank, or Tony or Ella singing one of these tunes.
But at least a couple of generations of players exist that don't know the words to Aint Misbehavin, Desafinado, Autumn Leaves, Softly as in Morning Sunshine, etc or so many others.
The words to many are gone, yet the melodies remain.
For example- Autumn Leaves has to be one of the most played songs in the jazz repertoire.
How often do you hear somebody sing it (in french or english)? One it ten times perhaps? Probably less.
Its just an observation.
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I'll add this bit. For me, the "definition" of the lyric also includes the vocal melody, the phrasing and rhythm of the words, and the "sound" of the words...all of which are integral to the music. … No. We’re using the English language as a communication medium here. The Lyrics are the words. "The words", without a musical context, are not a "song lyric"--which was the question David asked. They may be a poem. They may be some other kind of writing. They may even one day become song lyrics. But until they are part of a song, they are not song lyrics. When you ascribe musical qualities to those words, you are talking about music. Yes, really. Rap is a great example, especially in the early days when there was often no melody at all: it was still words and music. People have been having that discussion for hundreds of years. Here, you make my point. Yes, I'm talking about the music of a song lyric. When those words become part of a song they become music. A Capella is a great example. And yes, I include Rap in "songs". If the definition of "song" has become broad enough to include pieces of music which have never been married to a lyric, then it should include lyrics which have no discernible melodic connection to the rest of the music. If a song-writer writes a song by setting poems to music, more power to them. That's not how I write, neither alone nor with partners. My lyrics are from the beginning musical and intended to ultimately become part of a particular song. Therefor, music is boss. Other things I write are (usually) not. Thus they are not song lyrics, and don't serve to answer David's question.
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I like Mário's humor and at the same time how he stands up for himself, and as a lyricist I wrote lyrics for professional bands in our small country, so I should stand on the other side of Mário. But I don't stand elsewhere and agree with Mario that the song has melody, harmony and rhythm. It is defined that way and it comes from many years of experience and not from one head. And both lyrics and a song without lyrics can exist independently and thus be useful independently. But a good song is created in the cooperation of text and music and in the interplay of both. Both forms help each other in several of their parameters, and for example, let's name two that are among the most important, if we leave out the content of the text and the musical style of the song. And that is the sonority of the text and for the music the dynamics (not included in the definition of the song), in which interplay is what should work. And what else is applied to make the song as good as possible. It starts with the arrangement and then comes the professional sound and the better the performer the better and at the same time the band and much more. And finally, a song has to be lucky beyond just entering the world at the right time in the right place. My experience when listening to the charts is that my favorite song drops out prematurely at, say, the sixtieth place and then I never hear it again. What I wrote is not my wisdom, but I just summarized what I have collected in my life. I am 72 years old and have been playing guitar since I was 10 years old. Due to health reasons, I stopped playing the guitar and I am grateful to the music software that I can continue to play music, especially the software from PGMUSIC, with which I start when creating songs and which I return to when improving songs. As a lyricist I worked with professional bands from our Czech Republic, but as a musician I feel like an amateur and I don't make a living from music, but music is the spiritual delicacy of my retired life. My texts and my music are registered - the copyright protection association "Ochranný Svaz Autorský- OSA", which represents me, and we probably have it easier than many places around the world. I don't care what I start with, whether it's music or text, and often it was created at the same time and in different ways and procedures. I learned to arrange, but with the sound I go to the studio with a friend - a professional sound engineer. I appreciate my gifts of singing, writing, composing and arranging, but there are enough better singers, lyricists, composers and arrangers than me in our country, let alone in the whole world. However, it doesn't matter to me as an amateur, I always have someone to learn from. I apologize for using Google translator to translate from Czech to English, because I don't speak English well and it may happen that I miss something from Mario's good humor. It's nice to meet you. I agree with everything you wrote.
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Thank you for agreeing with me Tangmo and I appreciate it and nice to meet you. I equally respect everyone who disagrees with me but is willing to communicate with me here. It's more difficult for me, my English is not good and I use Google translator, which sometimes and sometimes even more turns the meaning around for me, and that's why before I post it as a post, I check it by translating it back into Czech and correct it several times until it makes the right sense to me. However, this may not make sense to anyone reading my post in English. It also happens to me that I overlook an essential piece of information in the translation into Czech and write it down incorrectly. An example is David Cuny, who featured A.I. female singers and I urged David that the A.I. singer Asterian added to a post about female singers. I was quite sorry, but it was my stupidity. I put my new songs on SoundCloud with A.I. singers and I don't know how to permanently put two links in my profile, so I put them here. My original songs where I sing or my friends or two instrumentals are on the link "gauzde new songs" https://soundcloud.com/user-920889151-633155523/sets/gauzde-new-songsMy new songs with A.I. singers or even by mistake in one case with my singing. Link "aigauzdesong" https://soundcloud.com/user-920889151-633155523/sets/aigauzdesongAfter a while I go to sleep (here in Prague it is 3:42 am already early in the morning). I am an owl and I live at night.
Last edited by Gause Zdenek; 07/23/23 05:42 PM.
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What an interesting question... I see lyrics as a natural part of a music - being born in my heart, they dance together...
Frankly, in real world, I got either lyrics or music and then the other part is being created... Sorry for speaking straight, it really depends on who comes first - you can't say who it will be, because lyrics contain music, words contain music like notes contain a tune...
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Alex, Very interesting and very true. Any great lyricist knows that the sound of the words are music in and of themselves, and they carry musical tones, and rhythm, and many facets of linguistic coloring that become inseparable from the notes in great songs. A freshman class in linguistics or poetry at any good college would teach that. Beautiful wording IS music too. So, yes there is a certain amount of alchemy to it all. Now that I have heard the song "Yesterday," I cannot hear the music without hearing the words, and I cannot hear the words without hearing the music. There is magic in it all.
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Hi, David !
For me it is always the music that comes first !
I think it is easier to adjust the lyrics to
the song when it is as good as ready, but
the ideal seems to be that you can work
on both at the same time i.e. you can always
change either the music or the lyrics
to get maximum flow !
I find it more difficult to try and write
music to defined unchangeable lyrics !
Cheers
Dani
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Lyrics (at least in the Country Genre) is the boss
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Many is the song reduced to its basic elements so that an instrumentalist can do their thing.
Jazz is a musical form that encourages this as it facilitates improvisation.
Lyrical improvisation is a little trickier which is why cats scat.
Lots of people, at a gig in the audience, sing fab/iconic/classic guitar solos.
Words are shapes for the sound but good words help the sound tell a story better.
For my part I, generally, dislike instrumental pop/rock/jazz music because I like lyrics, I like the literary story telling part.
An interesting test is to listen to music sung in a language you don't understand and don't know. This either makes some folk reach for the non existent subtitles, listen to it and imagine the lyric or listen to it as sound. Non English opera is like the latter for me. I don't want to know the story just the sounds'll do.
Cheers
rayc
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An interesting test is to listen to music sung in a language you don't understand and don't know. This either makes some folk reach for the non existent subtitles, listen to it and imagine the lyric or listen to it as sound. One of the songs I love fits that description nicely. All the more so, I think, because we can understand some of it, but not other parts. I think it should be left to the listener to find out the language and the meaning. It's a lovely song also in translation, if perhaps a little unexpected. +++ Yamore +++ by Salif Keita and Cesaria Evora.
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Yes, I'm talking about the music of a song lyric. When those words become part of a song they become music. A Capella is a great example. And yes, I include Rap in "songs". If the definition of "song" has become broad enough to include pieces of music which have never been married to a lyric, then it should include lyrics which have no discernible melodic connection to the rest of the music. I've mostly been watching this thread with my original "it all depends" view, but I'd like to add a bit that shows just how grey the area is between music and lyrics (and indeed Rap), by drawing attention to how poems can be musical without actually necessarily being music per se. That blurring from poem to lyric to tone poem to music. Two British poems: This Is The Night Mail - W H Auden Cargos - John Masefield
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful.
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+++ HERE +++ is a 1963 number 1 song that kind of blows the lyric/music poll completely out of the water. This #1 hit’s original Japanese title was "Ue o Muite Arukō," which translates as “I look up when I walk.”
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We 2 don't always agree when it comes to music, but here I'm 100% with you: the groove, the beat, the chords, in that order. If that grabs me, I don't really care about the rest.
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The Perfect Country Song One of my favorites when I could use a pick me up is "You never even call me by my name," by Steve Goodman and John Prine. The theme is that no country song can ever be considered complete without some mention of Mama, dogs, prison, trains, pickup trucks, and getting drunk. It was late after they wrote the song, but not until the next day that Steve completed it.
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