I see all these issues and missing features also but this is a massive leap to have the Tracks view and Riff Edit they will be adding all the other things to it and polishing it up, they just ran out of time that's all.
That is the main problem with timelines. Instead pushing out a product that isn't finished why not wait until it is polished a bit more:
Though the problem with that is the high risk of the project just running on and on.
One of the hardest parts of software development is ensuring that all realistic .... indeed preferable all feasible ... modes of use are tested and proven. In practice, for much software, to achieve that is likely impossible. With the best will in the World, there are so many user-paths through BIAB, never mind execution and data paths, that the permutations for possible errors will be huge.
The trick (miracle, perhaps?) is to attempt enough that there is sufficient time to give things a good test and polish, without either over-running or under-demanding so people get too lassaiz-faire. PGM's business model is predicated on releasing new features in time for Christmas. A new version that does little more than last year's release, but works more reliably and robustly, doesn't really appear to fit that business model.
Hmmm ... the following reads like an elevator pitch for a job, but I'm definitely not looking for a job.
The types of software I design(ed) were quite different to BIAB, so I'm very wary of making comparisons. Doing so could be unfair on either PGM or on myself. Mine was mostly embedded real-time, PGM's is a quite different environment, though still pretty much real-time. When designing, whether at the outset or later when making significant changes, my main initial focus would be to get the data right for the application. I would often spend many hours making sure that it made proper sense, would support the planned behaviour and covered all the planned/expected options and also those that seem likely to appear in the near to medium future. It would include placeholders for things yet to be. The other thing I do is try to compartmentalise data and its associated behaviours. I actually learned that well, rather by fluke, as systems on which worked and later on which I did the main concept, hardware and software architecture, used distributed processors such that each module received combined action and data messages, and was compelled to handle everything locally. In reality this was a kind of "object oriented" environment, even though the term was still a bit esoteric, C++ was still being thought about and Java still a couple of decades away. That compartmentalisation has informed much of my work ever since. If I want data manipulated, then I send a message to the appropriate manipulator saying which data and what manipulation. That principle can also fit nicely with multiple CPU cores.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
Regeneration of whole styles, track, songs, partial etc., is times faster now. Time it took before, starring point blank on the screen, waiting, you could of done 100 clicks. I rather do couple of extra clicks than, wait for the program to churn forever. That slowed me down. It made me feel like it's 1995 all over again and I am waiting for windows to load. To complete each project, will take me hours less now. I am strictly talking about generations time.
I've already agreed the speed is better. That doesn't justify the need for extra mouse clicks, just because the overall regen is quicker.
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You had suggestion to keep MTP on the top. (beats me why, but ok, lets assume that is something important)
Most people here are over the moon with non modal out of jail windows. So am I. But when those windows are forced on top, covering the main Window, then they require as much open and closing as the previous pickers. Where's the advantage? If everyone used two monitors the argument might be valid. What am I missing here? A simple toggle option for always on top is simple and affects nobody negatively.
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How much time you spent writing "me me me hates" instead of doing couple of Print Screens with your specific issues, explaining them in a paragraph or two and posting them up for discussion? PGM reads feedback / wishlist, and while there are no guarantees that something will eventuate, some things do. I honestly believe that is a better way instead of bashing overall progress made.
You can't seem to agree to disagree. I see most of this update as a step backwards in usability. Improving functionality at the cost of usability, isn't an overall improvement IMO.
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"I'd have been less annoyed if there was no snap option at all." - don't press that "snap" button and you will be OK.
It's an utterly pointless button, so why have it at all. I thought you was all about cleaning things up.
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"I discovered that partial drum regen doesn't work" - Was this feature advertised for drums? I honestly don't know. If it was, I would be upset too.
Yes, it's exactly what happened. Also the main reason I went for the update. Thankfully seems to have been fixed in 1108.
Like I said, if everything wasn't so awkward, unfinished and buggy, I might have had a better outlook on it. Most of my experience has been negative. That may just be coincidental that all the functions I use happen to be the ones most affected. Either way, I've had a very negative experience with the update.
That's why I was pissed off with the MTV, because it destroyed my dream!
I Think the problem with the stuff I post is it's so far ahead and down the track to give way more control of creativity, from where most users are now BUT will be there in the future. This is why I spent so much time and effort with Reaper showing how Biab and the BBPlugin can work way better. All this stuff can NOW be done in Reaper so professionally and easily with the BBPlugin ver 6 or if you only use Biab Open SGU in Reaper will instantly transfer tracks to Reaper and update any sections anywhere. Allowing over 255 bar limit. Fit to any varying tempo map. You can have so many Tabs with projects in and copy from one to the other. You can create up so many different project Tabs using your chords in so many different Styles instantly, no hours of rendering and dragging. Being able to name the RT RD track sections that you can see where instruments change. Being able to write the chord names to the track sections. Being able to instantly change from FX <> Direct Input keeping the same riffs. Convert a Stereo drum track into Stems instantly. Having Video RealTrack/Drums. You know what, I think I can even load a VST3 in Reaper. I don't have to wait years for things that might be implemented as I can look in Reapack for a script, ask in the forum for one or make one myself and it's done that very day.
FWIW, I’m in the camp with RustySpoon and Mario that say to cut PGMusic a bit of slack. To those that “just want it done now and done right” you should know that the development of complex software is no walk in the park.
Circa 2006 my company was awarded a “small” (several $million) exploratory contract to develop the flight control system for a new presidential helicopter, commonly known as Marine One. Although I wasn’t part of the software team per-se, I did need to interface with that department on a regular basis to do my job and would empathize with the challenges they faced.
A single flight control computer is a complex beast in it’s own right; the system we worked on contained four. Computer A would monitor its own health and the health of the other 3. Likewise Computer B would monitor its own health and that of the other 3, and so on. Every major clock cycle they would all vote (and never disagree) as to who was most healthy; and control of the aircraft would be automatically given to that computer. This is called quad-redundancy and is extremely complex to design and troubleshoot. So complex, that specialized software needed to be developed to produce the test matrices and to analyze the resulting fault logs. The test software would run 24/7/365.
I’m not saying that BiaB is as complex as the above described system and I have no idea whether PGMusic uses test software versus human-only beta testers. If human testers, then perhaps they could consider borrowing testing methods from other domains, such as aerospace.
I’m just offering my 2 pennies in the hope this could be useful to someone in the testing or QC departments. Rather than simply complain about this or that disappointment, the spirit should be to offer ideas to help PGMusic remain competitive in their chosen business domain. With the advent of AI, the competition is likely to increase.
Software testing is indeed a “thorny bush”, and let’s remember that a big part of the software design process is to not break existing features (that work well) when new features are incorporated.
Let’s cut them some slack.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Noel and Gordon, I agree about the fact that you can't release a project that is perfect, as that will never happen. I also agree about the multiple PC configurations and various workflows that us users have. However with the first release of the VST and with this current release it appears to me that a little more work could have been done. Having all of the tracks show in the track view, the track view not have a full timeline cursor, having problems with loop points, the multpicker not having everything the other pickers have, etc sound like major problems to me. I believe that "got to get it out prior to Christmas" timeline was the culprit. Or maybe the old code is the problem? Don't know.
But again I think PGM will correct said problems and as I said before I give them credit for that.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
Here is some To Do's for Tracks view (Chord entry will be on beats no typing commas):
Most have been official requested including a few more.
I agree all snap should be the same as Piano view where you can set the resolution and will make that request.
Already requested, - Cursor: Full Play head. - Cursor: Global to all views and floating windows - Snap: setting being global to all views - Loop: Global, toggle on/off, settable while in play - Zoom and Scroll Global on all views (same keys)
You were correct earlier when saying they ran out of time (must release in Holidays), as PGM has a lot more planned form the Track view.
First things first a cursor position global, play head cursor and improved snapping.
Last edited by jpettit; 01/12/2403:14 PM.
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
I believe that "got to get it out prior to Christmas" timeline was the culprit.
If PG Music wants to give people a boxing sale, they can do so in the new year as well. There is no need to rush the release.
However, releasing a half finished product, will severely harm PG's sales.
Take this MTV as an example, how many first time customers would be scared off, and never want to consider Band-in-a-Box again, when they watch the new feature video on YouTube and realize MTV is so difficult to use.
Yes, PG Music will probably release tons of update patches in the new year. Doesn't matter. The potential customers are gone already, and will not know the patches.
I have never seen a single young person ever talks about Band-in-a-Box on YouTube. Guess there must have been a reason.
A Canadian music producer, singer songwriter, composer, and professional guitarist.
I have really pushed PG a lot for these Big changes, and I have pushed PG for an open Beta Testing, this is the open Beta testing The main thing is you can still use the old pickers and you can still use the Audio Edit window without touching the Tracks or MutiPicker windows. OR just use Reaper with Biab/Plugin and have total control of everything. I would rather have it NOW as it is and give development feedback on it and guide it to what users want than wait another year.
whether bb new tview or rb tview i have a dream too... which is to do all my song creation work in ONE VIEW. ie bb tv or rb tv....cos i get fed up using multiple music apps.
do i have criticisms ? sure. do i sometimes get frustrated ? sure...but that applies to lots of software. can perfection ever be reached ? i doubt it cos haveing worked in tech on everything from new systems costing tens of millions down to minor upgrades i suggest that developers are human too... ie... they make mistakes.
but what other game in town is there other than bb/rb...? i see nothing that comes even close...thus a reason i get frustrated sometimes cos looking at new bb tv and existing rb tv i see so much potential and i thus dream.
but ive become more sanguine cos even with flaws i can still use pg products to do songs. hopefully 2024 bugs will be fixed and all our dreams realised.
if anyone thinks they can do better take a few courses in c++ and assembler and the win api sets and haveing done such i would respectfully suggest one will realise how remarkable it is that pg have brought their music apps this far.
all of us lets keep postive, and adopt a half glass full aspect and help pg make their products the best they can be. now im gonna go and dream over a cuppa tea...lol.
However with the first release of the VST and with this current release it appears to me that a little more work could have been done.
We do agree on that and I think it applies to nearly every release for which I've been a customer.
Our main difference, I think, is that you think they should have delayed release while they polished better and I think they should have tried to do a little less, giving them more of their allocated time to do the polish and still release to schedule.
I do like what I've seen of the changes and I think BIAB is progressing in a good direction. But I do also worry that we may still be seeing patches in a few months time. I have not yet forgotten or forgiven the year when I spent much more time trying to accurately report bugs and how they occurred, than I did actually trying to use BIAB. I felt then like perhaps I should have been paid as a tester, not charged for the product. That's not a good feeling.
Jazz relative beginner, starting at a much older age than was helpful. Kawai MP6, Korg M50, Ui24R, Saffire Pro 40. AVL:MXE Linux; Windows 11; Win8.1: Scarletts BIAB2022 UltraPAK, Reaper, a bunch of stuff.
However with the first release of the VST and with this current release it appears to me that a little more work could have been done.
We do agree on that and I think it applies to nearly every release for which I've been a customer.
Our main difference, I think, is that you think they should have delayed release while they polished better and I think they should have tried to do a little less, giving them more of their allocated time to do the polish and still release to schedule.
I agree with that. Either add a lot of stuff and delay the release or do a little less and release a more polished product. I liked Musocity's idea of an open beta. After the regular beta testers maybe PGM should ask a few veteran and/or power users to further test the product. I don't know if that would work or not.
Originally Posted by Gordon Scott
I do like what I've seen of the changes and I think BIAB is progressing in a good direction. But I do also worry that we may still be seeing patches in a few months time. I have not yet forgotten or forgiven the year when I spent much more time trying to accurately report bugs and how they occurred, than I did actually trying to use BIAB. I felt then like perhaps I should have been paid as a tester, not charged for the product. That's not a good feeling.
I agree. I am not a power user and in fact I usually get out of BiaB ASAP. I think with this release I will be able to spend more time in BiaB, however that will depend on my frustration level.
I want my last spoken words to be "I hid a million dollars under the........................"
64 bit Win 10 Pro, the latest BiaB/RB, Roland Octa-Capture audio interface, a ton of software/hardware
I used to "Beta Test" but it was just a mad rush for a few days, there was no way you could try things out and give development feedback on things. The last time I was in it I said about jail windows that they restrict you too much but it didn't get implemented until yet another year. I would prefer a back n forth approach where you can give feedback and ideas that are then implemented without waiting a year at a time. The more feedback that is given by users the better. PG don't always get things right if it's just left up to them, you need the constant feedback > development, not a year in between.
You are on the stage of American Got Talent, you sing a song. You didn't prepare very well, and you are out of tune. The judges shut you down, ask you to leave. Do you think you can ask the judges which part of the song you didn't do well, so you can receive some feedback, get a second chance, and sing again?
These days, young musicians are busy, and they have hundreds of VSTs and music libraries to choose from. PG released this MTV thing, with no bar grid snapping, no volume automation. Do you really think these young producers will be patient enough to come to this forum leaving some suggestions and waiting for patches?
No, they will move on, and forget about this software forever.
Unfortunately, that's life. You don't get a second chance from Simon Cowell.
A Canadian music producer, singer songwriter, composer, and professional guitarist.
Young people have DAWs, Biab is very complex and has a steep learning curve, the BBPlugin is simple and now instant in Reaper. The BBPlugin Standalone will be the same way soon when they implement the instant play, this is the way for younger users, simple, quick and basic. The BBPlugin Standalone is not a nightmare to learn. I'm putting my money on it being the way forward. Is EZDrummer/Bass/Keys popular ? the BBPlugin is EZBB.
Do you really think these young producers will be patient enough to come to this forum leaving some suggestions and waiting for patches?
No, they will move on, and forget about this software forever.
MV, apparently you think that you are the definitive voice for all "young" producers. A claim that I don't accept just like I can't accept anyone else claiming that they are the definitive voice for all "old" producers. But ignoring this for the moment, I am curious about something.
Where specifically do you see these "young" producers flocking to as they "forget about this software forever"? My understanding is that currently, BiaB is king of the mountain when it comes to computer-assisted music accompaniment and backing track production.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Kiddos mainly like Hip, EDM, Rap and similar genres. There are many software/hardware options for that type of music. Very few adoptive, non "loopy", performance oriented options out there for your traditional Rock, Pop, Blues, Country, R&B, Jazz, Folk and anything around that. Needless to say, core of BIAB users are about the genres it represents most.
Where specifically do you see these "young" producers flocking to as they "forget about this software forever"? My understanding is that currently, BiaB is king of the mountain when it comes to computer-assisted music accompaniment and backing track production.
BiaB indeed is the king, in my opinion. The only problem is, young producers don't care about it.
You can go to YouTube, find a young YouTuber, talking about Band-in-a-Box. I doubt you can find a single person.
To answer your question, most of young musicians spend their time on less confusing software such has Native Instruments collections, Ujam collections, AI based composing tools, etc.
I wish more young people could start considering using BiaB, but it doesn't seem to happen.
A Canadian music producer, singer songwriter, composer, and professional guitarist.
This forum is populated by old guys and I'm one of them. Simple as that. Old guys talking about old country music. It used to be jazz but these forums haven't been jazz orientated for years now. ... See a pattern here? It's old and more old.
That's the problem with young people popping in briefly and leaving imho. An old looking GUI being talked about by their parents (or grandparents) and referencing ancient music to do it. What 25 year old cares about that? As far as they're concerned it's an old program for old people.
OK, this really gave be a good laugh (gallows humor perhaps?) And I admit, I'm not a part of the 20 something crowd but here are 3 points.
1. Let's not confuse non-participation in this forum by musically-minded 20 somethings with their non-interest in BiaB. What 20 something has the time to debate the pros and cons of any piece of software all day long in a forum? They're too busy making babies, taking care of babies, pleasing their bosses and generally trying to survive in whatever economy they happen to reside in. Or maybe they're still struggling to move off their parent's couch, make it thru college or navigate the dating scene. Point being is that they're busy with life. Retired folks have time on they're hands.
2. My understanding is Taylor Swift is the biggest act on the music scene today. And I just listened to my first TS song (see below). Actually I only made it halfway thru. I don't see why a young (or any aged) producer couldn't use BiaB to arrange songs in the TS genre.
3. Based on country music award events, Willie Nelson birthday bashes and similar that I have seen, there's a healthy amount of young folk in the audience. And I'd guess that most would say they like the Beatles. Quality is quality, capability is capability and BiaB has much capability.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Most people here are over the moon with non modal out of jail windows. So am I. But when those windows are forced on top, covering the main Window, then they require as much open and closing as the previous pickers. Where's the advantage? If everyone used two monitors the argument might be valid. What am I missing here? A simple toggle option for always on top is simple and affects nobody negatively.
User Video: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®
The Bob Doyle Media YouTube channel is known for demonstrating how you can creatively incorporate AI into your projects - from your song projects to avatar building to face swapping, and more!
His latest video, Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box, he explains in detail how you can use the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box with ACE Studio. Follow along as he goes from "nothing" to "something" with his Band-in-a-Box MIDI Melodist track, using ACE Studio to turn it into a vocal track (or tracks, you'll see) by adding lyrics for those notes that will trigger some amazing AI vocals!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Add updated printing options, enhanced tracks settings, smoother use of MGU and SGU (BB files) within PowerTracks, and more with the latest PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 update!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
One of our representatives will be happy to help you over the phone. Our hours of operation are from
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