I have come to the sad conclusion that BIAB cannot play a mMaj7 chord (despite accepting the chord notation input).
This is with RealTracks.
I have done the Ctrl-F8 combination (over the bar) more than 20 times in an attempt to hear the chord played properly and not a single time was it played. It loves to play Maj7 chords though.
Does anyone know the secret to getting these chords to sound in audio?
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
I can only presume that they haven't been recorded in the first place. Others may know more. Presumably not all RealTracks include every possible variation.
Last edited by AudioTrack; 02/10/2412:16 PM.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
I think all the chords you can enter came about when Biab was just midi but then with RealTracks it would take hours an hours of recording to get all these chords. If they get all the Playable Realtracks sfz's working well so they are matched sound wise, Biab could intelligently use these for the non-available chords in the RealTracks so extra notes could be added/removed/moved in the RealChart midi intelligently to fit the chord, this is what VST's like NI Session Guitars and UJAM guitars have, they have all the recorded playing but also have the full identical sample set recorded from the same instrument. BUT you have to get all the SFZ's up to standard so they match the sound. I suggested the other day to a user to use PRT but it said the sound did not match the pedal steel RT instrument, this is what I have found. Going into the future RealTracks should be just Direct Input with a default FX like suggested here Multi Pattern/Style RealTracks this will lower the amount of sample SFZ's needed as when using a RealTrack with custom PRT sections both will be Direct Input using the same VST FX this will sound match a lot better than how they do now.
I think all the chords you can enter came about when Biab was just midi but then with RealTracks it would take hours an hours of recording to get all these chords. If they get all the Playable Realtracks sfz's working well so they are matched sound wise, Biab could intelligently use these for the non-available chords in the RealTracks so extra notes could be added/removed/moved in the RealChart midi intelligently to fit the chord, this is what VST's like NI Session Guitars and UJAM guitars have, they have all the recorded playing but also have the full identical sample set recorded from the same instrument. BUT you have to get all the SFZ's up to standard so they match the sound. I suggested the other day to a user to use PRT but it said the sound did not match the pedal steel RT instrument, this is what I have found. Going into the future RealTracks should be just Direct Input with a default FX like suggested here this will lower the amount of sample SFZ's needed as when using a RealTrack with custom PRT sections both will be Direct Input using the same VST FX this will sound match a lot better than how they do now.
Muso your BIAB technical level of expertise far surpasses mine so I will have to simply say, I would just be happy with whatever method is used to achieve a solution to this problem.
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
I never found a solution to the problem. As I mentioned above, I was finally able to hear a mMaj7 chord while working on another problem. But I never figured out how to get a mMaj7 chord to play on demand.
If only a PGMusic techie would step in now and say "Sorry it can't be done, we're working on it", I would leave this alone. But until they do I will persist in trying to figure out if there's a solution.
I just finished experimenting with a bunch of RealTracks and Styles. None of the Miles Black RealTracks worked. None of the Mike LeDonne piano RealTracks worked. None of the Kenny Barron piano RealTracks worked.
_JAZOR60 Organ warbling badly, BUT I could get a mMaj7 !!! (Mike LeDonne on organ) I used the trick to fix the warbling --> Auto-fix sour notes disabled. BUT when I did that, the mMaj7 chord disappeared !!! ARGHHH !!!! I did not regenerate!
So in addition to still needing to resolve this, there are obviously some serious bugs happening here.
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
In the early days of RealTracks (and yes, I go back 30+ years also, way before them), I tried mMaj7 chords and in some tracks, the piano simply laid out for any measure that had one. I reported the particular style to PG Music and they discovered an indexing problem and issued a patch that fixed it. It might be that simple. This was critical for my work since mMaj7 chords occur a lot in Brazilian jazz. I had not encountered a problem since 2009.
It is certainly likely that not every RealTrack artist may have recorded every kind of complex chord that exists, but the program apparently has algorithms to construct something in those cases. None of us users have any idea how.
You have cited a bunch of RealTracks and Styles, and you've said it appears to be inconsistent since sometimes it works. So, my suggestion is to get specific. Post a link to a song on Dropbox that demonstrates this problem every time. Let us test it. If it also fails for us, we can pass it with a nudge to the developers.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
I find for the best sounding mMaj7 chord I sometimes have to write a major + (augmented) chord a minor third higher than the root of the chord I want, and put the root after the slash. So for example CmMaj7 can be written Eb+/C and you will get the exact notes you want. Make sure the augmented is just a simple triad, with no embellished notes if the instruments likes to do that.
Try this sequence: Cm / Eb+/C / Cm7 / F7
It doesn't always work for all styles and instruments, but with regenerate you can usually get a satisfying result. I use this trick for other chords when I want to try a different voicing, putting the root I want after the slash and the upper notes as a simpler chord the appropriate interval above. So for example 1) CMaj7 > Em/C 2) Cm7 > Eb/C, C9 > Eh/C, Cb9 > Edim/C, etc. etc. Sometimes keeping the root out of the upper notes clarifies the harmony and you don't get awkward seconds or minor seconds where they don't sound good.
Yes that's the thread. In my #800564 post I mention mMaj7 working.
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You have cited a bunch of RealTracks and Styles, and you've said it appears to be inconsistent since sometimes it works. So, my suggestion is to get specific. Post a link to a song on Dropbox that demonstrates this problem every time. Let us test it. If it also fails for us, we can pass it with a nudge to the developers.
OK I will get specific now.
Here's my warbling organ song to start.
Before playing the song in BIAB, make sure your settings are for Organ/Track settings/Auto-fix sour notes *Enabled*. As is, both mMaj7 chords work!
Next, Disable Auto-fix sour notes for Organ/Track. On my computer the mMaj7 chords are now gone! No regenerating! How are you making out with the chords?
Next... Select the Organ track and then, Select RealTrack Piano #738 Generate track. First on my system the piano notes are scooped, sliding up/down, out of phase, just sounding awful. It is playing the mMaj7 chords correctly though.
Next, Disable Auto-fix sour notes for Piano/Track Settings. Chords have been cleaned up, no glitching. BUT... On my computer the mMaj7 chords are now gone! No regenerating! How are you making out with the chords?
Next... Select the Piano track and then, Select RealTrack Piano #743 Generate track. Chords are still clean, no glitching. Because Auto-fix sour notes still disabled for track.
BUT... On my computer the mMaj7 chords are now gone! No regenerating! How are you making out with the chords?
It doesn't always work for all styles and instruments, but with regenerate you can usually get a satisfying result. I use this trick for other chords when I want to try a different voicing, putting the root I want after the slash and the upper notes as a simpler chord the appropriate interval above. So for example 1) CMaj7 > Em/C 2) Cm7 > Eb/C, C9 > Eh/C, Cb9 > Edim/C, etc. etc. Sometimes keeping the root out of the upper notes clarifies the harmony and you don't get awkward seconds or minor seconds where they don't sound good.
Thanks Thomas for your suggestion. Very interesting.
I just tried it in a few different situations. I started with the chord progression you gave on a blank sheet and it worked nicely.
Strangely BIAB kept playing an interesting chord progression after your last chord! And this went on for many bars until I finally stopped it. In the old days BIAB would just keep playing the last chord over and over.
Next I opened up the problem song that I am working on. I started by playing the song as is. This is the warbling organ song. It played the mMaj7 chords correctly. Then, to fix the lousy-sounding warbling organ, I disabled Auto-fix sour notes for the track. The mMaj7 chords were now gone!
Next I put in the Augmented slash chords you suggested, in my case C+/A and Bb+/G. But they didn't work unfortunately, even after regenerating.
And finally, I copied the C+/A bar and then one before it. Then I closed the file and started a New song. I pasted these two bars into the new song and it played the chords correctly! Go figure!
So long story short, it's nice to have this option (that works sometimes) but honestly it would be a heck of a lot nicer if BIAB played mMaj7 chords on demand, every time.
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
The issues you are having must have something to do with the specific realtrack you are using. As I said, some work well with the aug+/slash substitution for Mmaj7, but not all. But for most realtracks it DOES work perfectly, and in many cases a realtrack might just play the simple minor chord on Mmaj7, so it is absolutely necessary to use the augment/slash to get that chord, particularly with guitars, because I assume that it was not played in a lot of the recording sessions on guitar samples.
So if you are using Realtracks, it is essential to have this substitution in many cases. I don't know why it didn't work for you in this particular case, but to see if it can work don't regenerate the whole chart, but use multiriff regenerate (F8) on just the offending track and see if at any time it can play Mmaj7 or not. That way you can quickly keep hitting regenerate for just that chord for that insturment to see what are the possibilities.
I suggest trying this 8-bar sequence on various Realtrack styles, and compare the second bar to the sixth bar to see which is better.
The Brazilian composers of the 60s often wrote Cm6 in place of that F7. Gives it a more mysterious sound. [I know we are talking about the second chord, not the last]
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
So if you are using Realtracks, it is essential to have this substitution in many cases. I don't know why it didn't work for you in this particular case, but to see if it can work don't regenerate the whole chart, but use multiriff regenerate (F8) on just the offending track and see if at any time it can play Mmaj7 or not. That way you can quickly keep hitting regenerate for just that chord for that insturment to see what are the possibilities.
Yes I was already trying F8, more specifically Ctrl-F8 to zero in on the offending bars. But it didn't help.
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I suggest trying this 8-bar sequence on various Realtrack styles, and compare the second bar to the sixth bar to see which is better.
Cm | Eb+/C | Cm7 | F7 | Cm | CmMaj7 | Cm7 | F7 |
I tried your chords with the following styles:
_JAZOR60 worked _WEFT worked _SJAZZBL worked _JBLADEP worked _SAVVY worked
Both the +/C and the mMaj7 worked.
Then I went back to my song. I swapped my style for _SJAZZBL (which had worked above). It worked at first, but was giving a warped sound, just like my original organ sound (_JAZOR60). So to fix the warped sound, I disabled sour notes for the keyboard track. And of course I lost the mMaj7 chords.
So something really weird is going on with BIAB. Specifically related to mMaj7 chords and 'disabling sour notes'. The two just don't like each other (for me).
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
The Brazilian composers of the 60s often wrote Cm6 in place of that F7. Gives it a more mysterious sound. [I know we are talking about the second chord, not the last]
Yes, any good jazz guitarist (and the Brazillians certainly are) might play a Cm6 when they see F7 on the chart. Or they might play Am7-5 (which has the same notes) because Cm6 and Am7-5 are the four upper notes of F9. When a bass is playing the chart, the combo result will be Cm6/F. Jazz guitarists who like to play all over the neck without open strings know how to play the upper part of any complex jazz chord with just with four notes, because they eliminate the root, which the bass has covered, and play the chord notes above the root. It has to do with the fact that a guitar, when you finger every note can best play four tones, not five or six (because without the thumb they only have four fret-fingers and without the pinky have four plucker-fingers.) Some big-handed guitarists can use the left-thumb to finger a fifth tone, or pluck five strings adding the pinky to the left-hand, but not all, so the four-upper-tone method of interpreting chords is quite common.
It is useful to think this way in BB, so writing Cm6/F is sometimes cooler sounding than writing F9 or F7, because it keeps the F note out of the higher voicings, which clarifies the harmony. I do this with all kinds of complex chords, because, as an arranger that is often the way we write harmony parts for sections.
I disabled sour notes for the keyboard track. ... And of course I lost the mMaj7 chords
This is "expected". The Fix sour notes / tuning feature (in Song Chords mode) will attempt to "correct" the notes on the track based on the current chord in the song. So that is why you are hearing an AmMaj7 chord at measure 18. What is happening is that 'Natural arrangements' is turned ON (which is the default) and the mMaj7 chord is getting mapped to a m7 chord in this style. The Fix sour notes is taking the Am7 chord and changing it into an AmMaj7 chord by changing the pitch of the G to G#. There are two ways to fix this.
A) Turn off Natural arrangements in the Song settings dialog.
B) Use the Auto-fix (tune) on just the first half of bar 18. I tested this with your song, and it works well. This feature in general works best for specific parts of a track rather than as a setting for the entire track. You could do something like this. 1. Turn OFF the Auto-fix track in Track Settings. 2. Use Track Actions | Copy/Move Track to copy the track to Utility track 1 where you can work on it further and preserve the original BiaB generated track. 3. Open the Audio Edit window, and highlight ONLY the first half of bar 18. 4. Click on the Edit button (in the Audio Edit window toolbar) and click Fix Tuning. Make sure Song Chords is selected and OK. This will add the G# to that bar. Repeat for the other bar of interest.
A) Turn off Natural arrangements in the Song settings dialog.
B) Use the Auto-fix (tune) on just the first half of bar 18. I tested this with your song, and it works well. This feature in general works best for specific parts of a track rather than as a setting for the entire track. You could do something like this. 1. Turn OFF the Auto-fix track in Track Settings. 2. Use Track Actions | Copy/Move Track to copy the track to Utility track 1 where you can work on it further and preserve the original BiaB generated track. 3. Open the Audio Edit window, and highlight ONLY the first half of bar 18. 4. Click on the Edit button (in the Audio Edit window toolbar) and click Fix Tuning. Make sure Song Chords is selected and OK. This will add the G# to that bar. Repeat for the other bar of interest.
Thanks for helping again Andrew. I don't know what computer or version of BIAB you are using, but your suggestions are not working well for me.
For fix A) it worked only for the 1st chorus, not the 2nd or 3rd !!! (742 piano) For fix B) it didn't work at all
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
Can use just use a minor chord and add the extra note in playable realtrack mode ? Just adjust the PRT volume to match the audio level.
That might be workable. ThomasS has a good suggestion too, to use alternate chords with a slash bass note.
I'm just really surprised that workarounds or fiddling with all kinds of settings are required to get a basic 'This Masquerade' chord happening in BIAB. It is 2024 right?
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
I'm just really surprised that workarounds or fiddling with all kinds of settings are required to get a basic 'This Masquerade' chord happening in BIAB. It is 2024 right?
There's just one setting: Song Settings - "Natural Arrangements".
Here's another idea that should work well, and allows you to leave natural arrangements enabled (more natural playing with longer phrases)
1. Generate the track. 2. Song Settings | Natural arrangements - disable. (but don't re-generate) 3. Highlight only 17-18 and press F8 - generate new riff for just those bars.
I disabled sour notes for the keyboard track. ... And of course I lost the mMaj7 chords
This is "expected". The Fix sour notes / tuning feature (in Song Chords mode) will attempt to "correct" the notes on the track based on the current chord in the song. So that is why you are hearing an AmMaj7 chord at measure 18. What is happening is that 'Natural arrangements' is turned ON (which is the default) and the mMaj7 chord is getting mapped to a m7 chord in this style. The Fix sour notes is taking the Am7 chord and changing it into an AmMaj7 chord by changing the pitch of the G to G#. There are two ways to fix this.
A) Turn off Natural arrangements in the Song settings dialog.
B) Use the Auto-fix (tune) on just the first half of bar 18. I tested this with your song, and it works well. This feature in general works best for specific parts of a track rather than as a setting for the entire track. You could do something like this. 1. Turn OFF the Auto-fix track in Track Settings. 2. Use Track Actions | Copy/Move Track to copy the track to Utility track 1 where you can work on it further and preserve the original BiaB generated track. 3. Open the Audio Edit window, and highlight ONLY the first half of bar 18. 4. Click on the Edit button (in the Audio Edit window toolbar) and click Fix Tuning. Make sure Song Chords is selected and OK. This will add the G# to that bar. Repeat for the other bar of interest.
This extremely valuable info needs to be preserved somewhere, in a sticky Tips and Tricks post, or an FAQ.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
I'm just really surprised that workarounds or fiddling with all kinds of settings are required to get a basic 'This Masquerade' chord happening in BIAB. It is 2024 right?
There's just one setting: Song Settings - "Natural Arrangements".
Here's another idea that should work well, and allows you to leave natural arrangements enabled (more natural playing with longer phrases)
1. Generate the track. 2. Song Settings | Natural arrangements - disable. (but don't re-generate) 3. Highlight only 17-18 and press F8 - generate new riff for just those bars.
Well this is getting really interesting.
I generated the track. I had natural arrangements disabled. I played the song and mMaj7 worked correctly on each occurrence for all three choruses this time! Strange.
However I'm loathe to say this has been fixed. Because I have a new can of worms. I don't know if I should continue it in this thread or start a new one.
I think I'll just continue here.
I have been so fixated on the mMaj7 chords in the song that I have been disregarding the rest of the chords!
Well there's a whole pile of chords that are being misplayed. Here's just a SMALL sample:
Now what can I say? For me this is totally unacceptable. Chords are the backbone of BIAB. If BIAB can't play chords you key in, (takes the liberty to play whatever it feels like) what's the point of using BIAB? May as well hire some musicians.
OK so what's the secret to tell BIAB to play ONLY the chords that have been keyed in? We know these chords have been recorded, they are as 'natural' as they come.
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
It needs options: A: Use substitutions for unavailable chords B: Add PRT notes for unavailable chords
A: Sure, if the chord is unavailable, go for it, use a substitution. But the chords I've given are bread and butter chords! Of course the chords are available. B: I'm not familiar with PRT notes? Are they part-time notes?
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
Here's the link to information that I posted about Playable Realtracks (PRT) in one of the other threads. Watching the video at the time stamps I've indicated will help you understand how they work.
Here's the link to information that I posted about Playable Realtracks (PRT) in one of the other threads. Watching the video at the time stamps I've indicated will help you understand how they work.
Thanks Noel. While it's nice to learn about this feature (PRT) I think you would agree that it would be a LOT better if BIAB would simply play chords correctly right from the start.
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
I decided to take a deeper dive into this <cough> chord ‘misinterpretation’ problem. I’ve made some interesting discoveries.
As I mentioned in my recent post, for the past week or so I was just focused on one chord, the mMaj7 chord.
But when things started to resolve with it, with fixes and such, I began to notice that many of my other chords were not playing properly either. I had simply focused on the mMaj7 chord because it really stuck out like a sore thumb.
Before I get to the other chords, let me return to the mMaj7 chords.
I decided to return to my saved songs (saved various versions of the same song). For some unknown reason, ALL of my saved songs were now working! That’s right, the songs where the mMaj7 chords were previously not sounding, were now sounding!
I took careful note of the Sour Notes On/Off and Natural Arrangements On/Off settings, because these were the two settings that I was advised would fix the problem. Specifically, I was told Sour Notes Off and Natural Arrangements Off would fix the mMaj7 problem.
So this is what the settings were when I re-opened five different versions of the same song. ‘Natural Arrangements’ has three settings, On, Off and As in Arrangement Options. Fix Sour Notes is abbreviated to FSN. Natural Arrangements is abbreviated to NA.
SONG1 FSN Off, NA ‘As in Arrangement Options’. SONG1a FSN On, (NA) On SONG1b FSN On, NA On SONG1c FSN On, NA On SONG1d FSN Off, NA Off (worked in Chorus 1 only! ) Changed to J!MANCNI (midi) Worked ALL Choruses
So while I was happy to hear the mMaj7 chord being played in almost every version now, except SONG1d (it only played it in Chorus 1) I was thoroughly confused.
Why was it working now? And why was it working with the key settings (FSN and NA) set the ‘wrong’ way? Three of the five song versions had FSN and NA set to ON, when I was told turning them OFF would fix the problem!
But when I changed the Style from my regular _JAZOR60 to J!MANCNI (I deliberately wanted to test a Midi style) all of the mMaj7 chords worked right out of the box. I had a hunch they would. And so I continued with my testing. I took the list of chords I posted above and tried them all out with the same Midi style (J!MANCNI). The chords were: CMaj7 Am7 Am6 G7b9 Dm7 Bm6 E7 I added a few more in addition to them m7b5 and m11.
They all played faithfully. No problems at all. It seems pretty clear that the problems with chord ‘interpretation’ <cough> are rooted in RealTracks. Midi has no problem dealing with almost anything you throw at it.
So now my questions are “Why is this?” And “Why did my problem versions mentioned above get fixed, seemingly on their own?”
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
Well there's a whole pile of chords that are being misplayed. Here's just a SMALL sample: CMaj7 > CMaj9 ...
This is expected and intentional. Jazz musicians will certainly often play the 9th if they see a CMaj7 chord on the chart. This isn't a substitution.
OK that's true about jazz musicians. But if you tell a jazz musician to play specific chords they will listen to you (most of time).
How do you tell BIAB to play specific chords and not stray from them? Is there a setting in BIAB for this?
CMaj7 > CMaj9 fair play for jazz musicians CMaj7 > C not fair play for jazz musicians! Am7 > Am9 fair play for jazz musicians Am6 > Am7 not fair play for jazz musicians! G7b9 > G9 not fair play for jazz musicians! G7b9 > G7+b9 not fair play for jazz musicians! Dm7 > Dm not fair play for jazz musicians! E7 > E13 fair play for jazz musicians
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
Why was it working now? And why was it working with the key settings (FSN and NA) set the ‘wrong’ way? Three of the five song versions had FSN and NA set to ON, when I was told turning them OFF would fix the problem!
The "Fix sour notes / fix tuning" feature should not be confused with song generation features. The main reason we are talking about it is that you accidentally had it turned on as a track setting for one of your tracks. This feature processes the audio wave data that has already been generated. It uses extremely sophisticated algorithms to modify the data, and is able to adjust the tuning of individual notes in a polyphonic track. This is a very difficult task which is why it is not perfect and there can be artifacts. It is best used, as I think I mentioned earlier, when you target specific sections of your track rather than using it is a 'global' track setting.
Natural Arrangements is a Band-in-a-Box setting that can affect the phrases that are used when generating RealTracks. This is a global setting (in Options | Preferences | Arrange) or a song-specific setting (in Song Settings). The default is ON, since out of the box, and when using typical chords for the style you are working with, overall the RealTracks tracks generated will tend to sound most realistic - i.e. faithful to what a real pro musician would play when reading the chord chart. Also there will tend to be more variety, since there is more material to draw from. There used to be a flash message notifying you when you first generated your song, how many of the chords were re-interpreted based on this setting, however there were some people who didn't like the flash message and requested that we remove it.
If you have a LOT of chords in your song that have specific extensions, and you want Band-in-a-Box to always play those specific notes in your chord, you should turn N.A. OFF. Some prefer this set globally. MIDI tracks (that is tracks made using the StyleMaker, not MIDI SuperTracks) do not have this feature, but they work much differently than RT's. With MIDI you can throw in any note into a chord, but it's not going to be as realistic (not matter what your synth is), since it's just the computer playing samples of various note pitches and not a musician playing the music on their instrument in that style.
If you have a FEW chords in your song that you want played with specific extensions, then that's where you can get into some of the tweaks that we've been talking about. There are several different approaches, which is because there are lots of different things that Band-in-a-Box can do. Let's say you have one bar you want to "fix". Some of the things mentioned in this thread are
- You could regenerate a specific bar with N.A. turned off. (easiest) (Requires you to freeze your tracks) - Similar to above, but you could generate a second track with N.A. turned off and then use Bar Settings to mute/un-mute bars as needed. - You could use Playable RealTracks to insert specific MIDI notes in your track. The MIDI notes are played using samples that are supposed to match the RealTracks as closely as possible. You can use this to add some specific notes to a chord. - You could use the Audio Edit window on your track and Fix Tuning (song chords mode) at that bar (requires the track to be frozen or converted to an audio track)
There are probably lots of other things you can do as well. Probably as many as there are people reading this forum.
Why was it working now? And why was it working with the key settings (FSN and NA) set the ‘wrong’ way? Three of the five song versions had FSN and NA set to ON, when I was told turning them OFF would fix the problem!
The "Fix sour notes / fix tuning" feature should not be confused with song generation features. The main reason we are talking about it is that you accidentally had it turned on as a track setting for one of your tracks. ....
If you have a LOT of chords in your song that have specific extensions, and you want Band-in-a-Box to always play those specific notes in your chord, you should turn N.A. OFF. Some prefer this set globally. MIDI tracks (that is tracks made using the StyleMaker, not MIDI SuperTracks) do not have this feature, but they work much differently than RT's. With MIDI you can throw in any note into a chord, but it's not going to be as realistic (not matter what your synth is), since it's just the computer playing samples of various note pitches and not a musician playing the music on their instrument in that style.
If you have a FEW chords in your song that you want played with specific extensions, then that's where you can get into some of the tweaks that we've been talking about. There are several different approaches, which is because there are lots of different things that Band-in-a-Box can do. Let's say you have one bar you want to "fix". Some of the things mentioned in this thread are .... There are probably lots of other things you can do as well. Probably as many as there are people reading this forum.
Thanks very much Andrew for explaining this. There is much to digest. I'll try to have a go at these solutions in the coming days.
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
How do you tell BIAB to play specific chords and not stray from them? Is there a setting in BIAB for this?
"A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !"
No, I don't think I believe it. In all this time you don't know the answer to this?*.
*... no offense intended, just having a bit of a giggle as I follow this whole thread.
I don't mind people poking fun at me at all. That's why I deliberately included my tagline.
First I must say, that I am NOT a regular BIAB user. If was I probably wouldn't be asking all of these questions. My typical BIAB usage goes like this. I'll be on a BIAB usage mode (as I currently am in now) for a few weeks or month or so. Then I won't use the program for a year or two or more. Then I'll come back to it, usually upgrade while I'm at it and rinse and repeat. Use it for a few weeks/months and put it away for a year/two etc.
When you use it like this, it's almost impossible to remember all the things you learned from before, and things are always changing as you know.
Second, BIAB has settings-itis. Translation: too many settings for things that should be set as default.
It is my view that when a user inputs a chord (using RealTracks) that chord should sound, not a variation of that chord. Imagine if you were a composer and you went to listen to the debut of your work with a symphony orchestra and they started to alter your chords! You would be outraged!
My questions, "How do you tell BIAB to play specific chords and not stray from them? Is there a setting in BIAB for this?"
were very serious.
From Andrew's latest reply, it doesn't appear there is one setting that you could "set and forget" that would allow you to do this. BIAB will continue to throw variations of the chords you input. When it is important that certain chords be played as input, he has given various options to try, to get the chords sounding correctly.
My guess is that 90% + of BIAB users can't even hear the difference between the chords we are discussing and so this is a non-issue for them. Fortunately (or unfortunately) I can hear the difference.
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
[quote=DrDan][quote=BIABman] It is my view that when a user inputs a chord (using RealTracks) that chord should sound, not a variation of that chord. Imagine if you were a composer and you went to listen to the debut of your work with a symphony orchestra and they started to alter your chords! You would be outraged!
My questions, "How do you tell BIAB to play specific chords and not stray from them? Is there a setting in BIAB for this?"
were very serious.
From Andrew's latest reply, it doesn't appear there is one setting that you could "set and forget" that would allow you to do this. BIAB will continue to throw variations of the chords you input. When it is important that certain chords be played as input, he has given various options to try, to get the chords sounding correctly.
My guess is that 90% + of BIAB users can't even hear the difference between the chords we are discussing and so this is a non-issue for them. Fortunately (or unfortunately) I can hear the difference.
BIABman, Andrew's excellent posts here (and his careful patience) are exemplary. If you follow his step-by-step advice you will find a lot of solutions to your issue. What you are asking has been discussed and solved many times over the years. You can do a search and find many people have addressed this question, but you can do no better than to carefully read Matt Finley's post:
Why was it working now? And why was it working with the key settings (FSN and NA) set the ‘wrong’ way? Three of the five song versions had FSN and NA set to ON, when I was told turning them OFF would fix the problem!
... Natural Arrangements is a Band-in-a-Box setting that can affect the phrases that are used when generating RealTracks. This is a global setting (in Options | Preferences | Arrange) or a song-specific setting (in Song Settings). The default is ON, since out of the box, and when using typical chords for the style you are working with, overall the RealTracks tracks generated will tend to sound most realistic - i.e. faithful to what a real pro musician would play when reading the chord chart. Also there will tend to be more variety, since there is more material to draw from. There used to be a flash message notifying you when you first generated your song, how many of the chords were re-interpreted based on this setting, however there were some people who didn't like the flash message and requested that we remove it.
If you have a LOT of chords in your song that have specific extensions, and you want Band-in-a-Box to always play those specific notes in your chord, you should turn N.A. OFF. Some prefer this set globally. MIDI tracks (that is tracks made using the StyleMaker, not MIDI SuperTracks) do not have this feature, but they work much differently than RT's. With MIDI you can throw in any note into a chord, but it's not going to be as realistic (not matter what your synth is), since it's just the computer playing samples of various note pitches and not a musician playing the music on their instrument in that style.
OK Andrew I have some time today and I am tackling your suggestions.
I started just now with the most important situation: A LOT of chords that I want played as written.
Unfortunately it just is NOT working. I disabled N.A., BOTH globally and for the song specifically.
I am using _JAZOR60 at a tempo of 60. I have frozen the tracks so that you and everyone can hear the problems.
These are the problem chords (indicating how they are written and played): CMaj7 > CMaj9 FMaj7 > FMaj9 Fm7 > Fm9 Fm7b5 > Abm EbMaj7 > EbMaj9 Ebm9 > Ebm11 Bbsus > Bb13sus Ab7b9 > Ab13b9
Here is the file so that everyone can hear the problems.
Just to clarify we are listening only to that Organ RT which has no notation right? I have the chords playing on Utility #1, but that is just my default. So I will mute those which by the way does have notation and is spot on.
That specific organ RT sounds like a Hammond B3 with draw bars which intentionally add upper harmonies such as the 9th and 13th - it is just the nature of that beast. I have recently been playing a B3 and it is a marvel at what extra sounds are added based on setup of the draw bars.
If I am correct, than if you substitute a Piano RT for the Organ you should see everything settle down in your chord notes. I know you want the Organ, but you may just have to settle. Or perhaps you could try new Toontrack B3, where you can edit the beejeebiz out of the instrument and eliminate the draw bars. Just a thought.
... btw, I just tried to add the EZk2 Session Organ as a plugin on the Chords Track to hear it play over these chords, but alas... BIAB is not compatible with VST3!
Just to clarify we are listening only to that Organ RT which has no notation right? I have the chords playing on Utility #1, but that is just my default. So I will mute those which by the way does have notation and is spot on.
Yes that is correct. I was just focusing on the Organ track. I had a midi bass track, but for some reason it wasn't playing on my system. I just added a Super Midi Bass track for our next go (see below).
Quote
That specific organ RT sounds like a Hammond B3 with draw bars which intentionally add upper harmonies such as the 9th and 13th - it is just the nature of that beast. I have recently been playing a B3 and it is a marvel at what extra sounds are added based on setup of the draw bars.
Yes it's possible that could explain some of the extraneous notes.
Quote
If I am correct, than if you substitute a Piano RT for the Organ you should see everything settle down in your chord notes. I know you want the Organ, but you may just have to settle. Or perhaps you could try new Toontrack B3, where you can edit the beejeebiz out of the instrument and eliminate the draw bars. Just a thought.
For the purpose of this exercise I have substituted a Piano RT for the organ as you suggested. You are correct I do want an organ sound (although it could be another organ RT) but for now I just want to hear the chords played properly, so the test continues. Piano 743 is what I am using now.
Unfortunately it is actually worse than the organ! Here are the results: C > Cadd9 CMaj7 > OK now FMaj7 > F69 F > FMaj7 Fm > Fm9 Fm7 > Fm9 Abm > Abm9 EbMaj7 > EbMaj7 Eb6 EbMaj9 > EbMaj7 Eb6 Ebm9 > OK now Bbsus > Bb9sus Bb7sus > Bb9sus Ab7b9 > AbAdd9 Ab7#9 > Ab13 Cm6 > Cm9
Only two chords were corrected. Many stayed the same and a few more bad 'translations' occurred.
Some real 'standouts' are: Ab7b9 > AbAdd9 Ab7#9 > Ab13 Cm6 > Cm9
Maybe PGMusic can add this as one of their 50 new features next go around? They could call them 'Real Standouts'.
I confirmed your assessment based on looking at the notation versus the chord chart. No surprizes here for me, especially since this falls into a Jazz category. The RT takes a lot of liberties. Many in this thread have acknowledged this.
Quote
How do you tell BIAB to play specific chords and not stray from them? Is there a setting in BIAB for this?
By the way, the answer to your question is NO.
I do have my own personnal workaround for this. One way is to use the "Chord Track" to send to a VSTi which has more control over chord voicing and extra notes, as I indicated with the Toontrack sessions organ (but you have to be working in your DAW). Or I use Scaler which voices the chord exactly as I specify.
I think I know what the problem is. If I'm correct there won't be a solution forthcoming any time soon.
I have a bunch of questions that I am preparing wrt RealTracks, soon to be posted.
Someone has to take the recordings the RealTrack artists make and categorize them. It's likely the artists themselves or a designated PGMusic employee. Whoever it is that is categorizing the recordings, needs to have a fantastic ear, or problems will arise.
If the person miscategorizes chords, then we would arrive at a situation I am facing now. The RealTrack artists record hundreds of chords in all different genres. For genre 'X', Cm9 chords need to put in their correct 'bin'. The same goes for Am7b5 and D7#9 etc. etc. Because when a song is regenerated, chords need to be sounded for the chord that was typed in. For each chord there will likely be numerous takes, inversions etc. of the chord. But if someone has miscategorized chords, then they will not match the chord that was input by the user in the chord entry screen.
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
I confirmed your assessment based on looking at the notation versus the chord chart. No surprizes here for me, especially since this falls into a Jazz category. The RT takes a lot of liberties. Many in this thread have acknowledged this.
If Andrew or any other PGMusic tech came right out at the beginning and said this, then I would have taken it for the answer and stopped pursuing this.
But no one did. In fact Andrew gave what he considered to be the solution. I am discovering that his solution does not actually work.
At least not for jazz RealTracks, which is the only thing I am interested in with BIAB.
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
Is this chord chart from a specific song you are trying to cover in BIAB?
Yes it is from a song called "Too Late Now". I'm not trying to cover it, but rather get it close to the organ part in a Wes Montgomery recording. I'm just aiming to use it for practice.
You can hear the song if you follow this link:
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
I put a wishlist request in so when a user types in mMaj7 chord their browser will open up at this thread that they can read all through to work out how to get that chord.
I put a wishlist request in so when a user types in mMaj7 chord their browser will open up at this thread that they can read all through to work out how to get that chord.
👍
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
I have never found it difficult to get the exact chord I want, including Mmaj7, using slash/substitutions or the various techniques cited by Andrew and Matt Finley (particularly HERE.)
But now I realize you are trying to replicate an exact recorded track. May I suggest that if you’re trying to “get it close to the organ part in a Wes Montgomery recording” and you’re “just aiming to use it for practice,” then perhaps BIAB is not the best tool for this purpose?
Attempting to use BIAB to absolutely faithfully reproduce a commercial track note-for-note is like trying to drive in a nail with a screw-driver. It’s not the best tool for that. BIAB never promised to be a track duplicator, and jazz, in particular, is too complex harmonically for any RealStyle to perfectly replicate the recording of a particular artist.
I love it to make my own original arrangements. But if I ever needed to duplicate note-for-note a commercial track I would not use BIAB, but instead a DAW, sample libraries, my ears and, if necessary, some tools like Melodyne and RipX to isolate and duplicate something if I want it to be a note-perfect copy. RipX (also Spectralayers) can isolate instruments in a recording and make separate stems, and RipX can actually convert any separate instrument in a recording to MIDI, which could then trigger a sample. Melodyne can also identify the exact notes inside a chord, which is handy too.
Anyway, since you are just wanting to practice with the track, HERE (Play) is your track which I ran through RipX and told it to take out the guitar, which took less than 5 minutes. That’s what some people do to make practice recordings for any particular instrument. This would be faster and more accurate for your purposes. You can hear the guitar in a few places that the program did not catch, but that is easily edited too (but would have taken three or four more minutes and I just wanted to show how easy this is.)
Of course, if you wanted to replay the Organ, you could also do that, and there are a few tools that play a great sounding B3, even with automatic chords like BB, but the best is Toontrack Session Organ You could also use RipX or Melodyne to convert the isolated organ to MIDI and trigger it with the Toontrack sound. It is also possible to combine Rips of separate stems with a BIAB session, but this requires more tweaking to align the timing, but is reasoably easy too.
Don't get me wrong, I think BIAB is absolutely fantastic for making tracks to practice to. But in your case it seems you want very specific duplication of a track, so in this instance perhaps you could do it better, or quicker, with other tools.
In my first response above I mentioned that I reported a very specific instance of mMaj7 not playing. They fixed an index and issued a patch. Granted, this was before the existence of Natural Arrangement and other things discussed here, but it might be that simple. Report one specific documented example where it’s clearly wrong, not just a jazz interpretation, and see what happens.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
Here you will hear every note that you see and only the notes specified by the chords. The only limitation is that the midi was written in BIAB so not all the extensions I wanted to add were available, but they could be added and adjusted in the DAW as needed.
This was a pleasent distraction for me. Thanks for pointing me to this oldy but goody.
Here you will hear every note that you see and only the notes specified by the chords. The only limitation is that the midi was written in BIAB so not all the extensions I wanted to add were available, but they could be added and adjusted in the DAW as needed.
This was a pleasent distraction for me. Thanks for pointing me to this oldy but goody.
Thanks Dan. Just so I understand. You recorded the song inside BIAB or with a DAW? You used an organ synth? BIAB translated what you played into midi notes? That's a cool version.
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
Here you will hear every note that you see and only the notes specified by the chords. The only limitation is that the midi was written in BIAB so not all the extensions I wanted to add were available, but they could be added and adjusted in the DAW as needed.
This was a pleasent distraction for me. Thanks for pointing me to this oldy but goody.
Great ! so hopefully we will see some UserTracks, looking forward to them.
Thanks. This started in BIAB when I entered the chords that you see. The chords came from the original sheet music chart. There were a couple extensions which were not possible to enter into BIAB so these I fudged. When done in BIAB I save the "chord track" for an accurate midi arrangement of the block chords. Then I opened Reaper, inserted the BIAB-VST and within the VST opened the midi arrangement file from BIAB. Then I could drag and drop the block chord midi and the chord labels into Reaper. Finally I put in the Toontrack Session Organ VSTi to play the midi chords. So no RTs were used! No BIAB Style was used! The organ is not trying to provide a diverse rhymic performance, it is just comping the chords. This leaves lots of room for the soloist to play the melody and/or improvise.
But now I realize you are trying to replicate an exact recorded track. May I suggest that if you’re trying to “get it close to the organ part in a Wes Montgomery recording” and you’re “just aiming to use it for practice,” then perhaps BIAB is not the best tool for this purpose?
Attempting to use BIAB to absolutely faithfully reproduce a commercial track note-for-note is like trying to drive in a nail with a screw-driver. It’s not the best tool for that.
Anyway, since you are just wanting to practice with the track, HERE (Play) is your track which I ran through RipX and told it to take out the guitar, which took less than 5 minutes.
Don't get me wrong, I think BIAB is absolutely fantastic for making tracks to practice to. But in your case it seems you want very specific duplication of a track, so in this instance perhaps you could do it better, or quicker, with other tools.
Thanks Thomas for taking the time to fill me in on all of this and also for making that track. I'll need a password though before I can gain access to it.
I just quickly told Dan what the song was and what I was trying to do. I am definitely not trying to faithfully reproduce the organ in that recording, note for note!
Any organ sounding reasonably similar in tone and playing the correct chords would suffice for me. I don't think that's being too fussy.
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
Thanks. This started in BIAB when I entered the chords that you see. The chords came from the original sheet music chart. There were a couple extensions which were not possible to enter into BIAB so these I fudged. When done in BIAB I save the "chord track" for an accurate midi arrangement of the block chords. Then I opened Reaper, inserted the BIAB-VST and within the VST opened the midi arrangement file from BIAB. Then I could drag and drop the block chord midi and the chord labels into Reaper. Finally I put in the Toontrack Session Organ VSTi to play the midi chords. So no RTs were used! No BIAB Style was used! The organ is not trying to provide a diverse rhymic performance, it is just comping the chords. This leaves lots of room for the soloist to play the melody and/or improvise.
This is a very typical workflow for me.
Dan
Ahhh... now I understand. Thanks for explaining it to me. There are so many different ways to skin a cat with these things. I also use Reaper as my DAW. As soon as I have a decent-sounding backing track I import the .wav files into Reaper and work from there.
A BIAB user for more than 30 years (if you can believe it) !
User Video: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®
The Bob Doyle Media YouTube channel is known for demonstrating how you can creatively incorporate AI into your projects - from your song projects to avatar building to face swapping, and more!
His latest video, Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box, he explains in detail how you can use the Melodist feature in Band-in-a-Box with ACE Studio. Follow along as he goes from "nothing" to "something" with his Band-in-a-Box MIDI Melodist track, using ACE Studio to turn it into a vocal track (or tracks, you'll see) by adding lyrics for those notes that will trigger some amazing AI vocals!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Add updated printing options, enhanced tracks settings, smoother use of MGU and SGU (BB files) within PowerTracks, and more with the latest PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 update!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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In all this time you don't know the answer to this?*. 
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