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If I go back in time in the forum there are so many more post on a daily basis throughout the year than how it is now, pretty dead. What will get more users back ? EDIT: or NEW USERS Real Time Arranging ?? Band in a Box for linux ?? A Working BBPlugin (EZBBvst) ?? Other ?? ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=27895&filename=BBForum-2009.png)
Last edited by musocity; 04/25/24 08:11 PM.
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"What will get more users back ?"
Here is my recipe:
1) Known bugs fixed
2) VST3 with full mixer channel routing before the end of the year.
3) Workflow enhancements / fix broken workflow items - the core of these issues was presented in great detail in several videos by Jeff P.
4) Throw out redundant features and menus /Clean up UI., not giving in to a vocal "few"... only few (!) that are stalling the progress for most users because they are too comfy using certain menus.
5) Graphical enhancements. More vector, more modular, modern buttons. No eyesore "Radio Bar" by default. Less of 90's vibe in design.
6) Plugin stability + same regeneration multicore speed as BIAB. No render to disc.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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"What will get more users back ?"
Here is my recipe:
1) Known bugs fixed
2) VST3 with full mixer channel routing before the end of the year.
3) Workflow enhancements / fix broken workflow items - the core of these issues was presented in great detail in several videos by Jeff P.
4) Throw out redundant features and menus /Clean up UI., not giving in to a vocal "few"... only few (!) that are stalling the progress for most users because they are too comfy using certain menus.
5) Graphical enhancements. More vector, more modular, modern buttons. No eyesore "Radio Bar" by default. Less of 90's vibe in design.
6) Plugin stability + same regeneration multicore speed as BIAB. No render to disc. 5) --> Yes, it could be a good idea. Especially for users with HDPI monitors. Better GUI is always nice to have. But if GUI is old-fashioned and functional I personally don't have any problem. I think there are other priorities, but I understand there are many users with tiny 4K monitors. 1), 2), 3), 4), 6) --> ABSOLUTELY! Every time I fire BiaB I have the same feeling: The software is "almost there" (like N years ago). I'd add: Simpler software set: Just a VST3 plug-in and a stand-alone version with nearly identical functionality. Like everybody else! No need for Real Tracks or Power Tracks (Many musicians prefer their own DAWs). If all functionality is in the VST3, then there is no need to combine multiple pieces of software, each one with its hidden limitations. No more need open Real Tracks to export vocal harmonies in separate channels! If you asked, even just a good VST3 plug-in (no stand-alone version) should be enough, but I understand there are users that don't like to fire a VST host for live use.
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I think to get a whole new user base would be those that use arranger keyboards, there would have to be a large market for those that want real instruments but don't want to pay $5000 for an arranger keyboard with real instruments. Real Time Arranging A decent laptop or something like this could be used in a live situation, look how small these are: HP ELITEDESK 800 G2 mini i5 6500T 8GB RAM 256GB SSD Win 10 Micro PC WIFI I got one as a spare PC for $100. ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=27896&filename=EliteDesk-800.jpg)
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My take, and apologies if this is derailing. BIAB could easily be adapted to perform as an Arranger keyboard system, using a fast processor, adequate RAM and a decent SSD. However... Some of the currently advertised System Requirements preclude this from ever being delivered: System Requirements for Band-in-a-Box®
Windows®: 11/10/8/7 (32 or 64-bit)
Minimum 1GB RAM (2GB+ recommended)
Minimum 1.0 GHz processor (2GHz+ multicore recommended) I don't know anyone running Windows 7 (no longer supported by Microsoft for several years) on a 1.0 GHz processor and expecting anything from producing music. And that's what I believe is holding this opportunity back. Can you even start to imagine the interest that would be generated if BIAB could also operate as an Arranger System that could be used with almost any existing keyboard?Nobody with a 1.0 GHz Windows 7 anything is purchasing the 2024 version of BIAB. Move on.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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You're right, of course.
I'm wondering, what with lots of FAQs out there, where this set of system requirements came from? It would be worth sending a suggestion to PG Music to update it. In particular, I think the change this year that loads and regenerates RealTracks so much faster must be taking more computer processing power. Only if BIAB had remained MIDI-only would those specs have a fighting chance. "Turn off Fast Generation" and the like can send someone down an unproductive journey with an underpowered computer.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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SSD's have sub-millisecond access ('seek') times, and can typically read in excess of half a gigabyte / second.
For BIAB to work in an Arranger environment, the system only has to read short pre-recorded 'musical phrases', and not generate an entire song.
Of course there are other factors, but processing power is extraordinary nowadays, and BIAB could have a minimum requirement if it is to be used as a Arranger capable system as well. Disable that ability unless the overall processing performance is adequate.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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Using it as a Live Arranger you would only need a small LCD screen, I made a touch screen jukebox/karaoke using a POS terminal and just ran the program at startup, I think it even had a second display port for the karaoke screen. http://www.freeboxjukebox.com/screenshots.htmlHere's a 10" touch screen for less than $100: ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=27900&filename=10inch-TouchScreen-800.jpg)
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Some arranger keyboards have a touch screen. ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=27902&filename=Keyboard-TouchScreen.png) For the Biab Live Arranger they could have a skin for touch screens. That what's good about e-touch jukebox you can create whatever skin you like: ![[Linked Image from berrywell.uk]](http://berrywell.uk/jukebox/Retro_V2/page_1.jpg) ![[Linked Image from berrywell.uk]](http://www.berrywell.uk/jukebox/red_main_page.jpg) ![[Linked Image from berrywell.uk]](http://www.berrywell.uk/jukebox/Midnight_Blue1024x768.jpg)
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I believe making an arranger out of plugin or BIAB is theoretically possible, but styles would have to tailored specifically for use with such arranger. Unlike a fairly straight forward MIDI arrangers, BIAB uses randomization algorithm making use of different takes over same chords. You DON'T want an arranger that would play something different from what you've last heard. If you make automatic STRICT rule of selection, it might not necessarily use the best take, but take worst. So I think to make something decent, each individual style would have to go through a very in depth section curation specifically designed for arranger.
Arranger is potentially a very promising direction, but for now I wish PGM would just fix what needs to be fixed and finish half baked items that need to be finished in BIAB & Plugin. Especially focusing on VST3 implementation that supposedly coming later this year and its MIDI routing to other tracks via simple method, not with some complex 10 step workaround.
For now, I am very glad they figured out use multicore processing for generating/regenerating tracks. That was a very pleasant surprise for 2024. Saves a lot of time.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I think anything will work better than the limitation of the repetitive pattern in the PRS STY MIDI (see below). YES, let all the Delphi programming guys spend all their time fixing the Delphi Win then spend the next 6 months doing the same on the Mac, .... while Adar programs the crossplatform JUCE Plugin/Plugin Standalone/Live Arranger and releases it on the same day on a Win/Mac/Lin platform. So if the Delphi turns into a Ghost Town you still have the JUCE as a thriving metropolis. ![[Linked Image - Only viewable when logged in]](https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=download&Number=27903&filename=PRS-STY-Sections.png)
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Arranger is potentially a very promising direction, but for now I wish PGM would just fix what needs to be fixed and finish half baked items that need to be finished in BIAB & Plugin. Especially focusing on VST3 implementation that supposedly coming later this year and its MIDI routing to other tracks via simple method, not with some complex 10 step workaround. Certainly there is no intention whatsoever to alter the priority of these other, more critical tasks and deliveries.
BIAB & RB2024 Win.(Audiophile), Sonar Platinum, Cakewalk by Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M Monitors, Pioneer Active Monitors, AKG K271 Studio H'phones
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The original post made a few suggestions for the answer, including:
Real Time Arranging ??
Band in a Box for linux ??
A Working BBPlugin (EZBBvst) ??
Other ??
But I think Rustyspoon's posts, the second in this thread and the one just above, give answers I can agree with. Any of these other specific suggestions, the ones in the OP's post or different, deserve separate threads.
In my opinion, the Forum is quieter because of two possibilities: 1) BIAB can do what most users need to do, and/or 2) an increasing number of more advanced users who post frequently have grown weary waiting for fixes. Quite a few years ago now, I suggested there be 'no new features' in favor of a year in which existing features and limitations were fixed (but continue with new RealTracks so there is something new to sell). As the years go by, I continue to believe this is the approach that is needed, once. Then add new features to a solid core, although these need to be thought through very carefully or we get back into the same cycle.
Nothing I've written means that I do not love and appreciate BIAB. I use it every day.
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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At the moment how the programming works the Plugin has to wait for programming time to become available to always program the backend of the Plugin "BBW4" before anything can be done at all, so the Plugin programmer's hands are tied WAITING all the time so it gets held to a grinding halt: Current Fixes Needed for 6.0.13 (Reaper) Is this waiting for the mac version to be finished first before these fixes can be implemented ?? If things were all in one crossplatform these would be fixed by now and released on both versions at the same time, ... and maybe even a Linux version: Band in a Box for linuxUsers should be looking at solutions for this problem going into the future. Is it a good thing to spend 6 months on Win them 6 months on Mac ???? Can you still see this method 10-20 years down the track and still be fine with it ???? If when something is programed, it is instantly done for Win/Mac and maybe Lin at the same time, would this give more time for things to be fixed and new features to be added easier ???? I'm just looking for BIG changes in the way things are done to get a larger user base rather than doing the same old thing with cosmetic tweaks. It's just way too slow how it is now waiting year in year out, there's got to be a better way. Think a bit bigger, not just keep doing the same old thing.
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Interesting topic. My opinion on the “ghost town” or “what will get more users back/generate more new users" is the right marketing and getting the word out. That’s one reason why I suggested a “PGMusic Grammy Award” playlist available as a YouTube featuring the best songs across every genre. Young folks simply may not be aware of all it can do. And if you're not a BiaB user, it's unlikely you're listening to the Showcase or BiaB Radio. But the idea went nowhere mainly because it would be a "popularity contest"; which is exactly the point. The most popular, well-produced songs get chosen for the purpose of attracting young, fresh talent. PGMusic Grammys? So I decided to ask my AI assistant for an opinion; which of course is trained on data scraped from the internet. Q1. What is the most popular music arranging and accompaniment software tool among young musicians today?A1. Ableton Live 10 Suite, Ableton Live 10 Suite, Avid Pro Tools. Q2. Why is Band In A Box not on this list?A2. Band-in-a-Box is indeed a notable music software tool, and I appreciate your mention of it! It’s a versatile program that excels in automatic accompaniment and music arrangement. [Note that this is not answering my question.] Q3. What are the drawbacks of Band In A Box?A3. 1. User Interface (UI): The GUI of Band-in-a-Box might appear dated to some users. It resembles an MS-DOS program from the '80s. While this retro aesthetic has its adherents, others find it less visually appealing 2. Learning Curve: BIAB is feature-rich, which can be overwhelming for beginners. Although its core elements are straightforward, diving into its extensive functionality may take time. Users might need to explore the user manual or online resources to unlock its full potential. 3. Complexity: While BIAB is not a full-fledged digital audio workstation (DAW), it still offers a plethora of tools and features. Navigating through all these options can be daunting, especially for those new to music production. 4. Library Limitations: BIAB relies on its built-in libraries for RealTracks and RealDrums. While these are high-quality, users might eventually feel limited by the available styles and sounds. Customization options are somewhat constrained by the existing content. 5. Style Repetition: Some users find that BIAB’s generated accompaniments tend to follow certain cliché styles. While it’s excellent for quick arrangements, it might not always yield highly unique or innovative results. 6. Installation and File Size: Downloading and installing BIAB’s add-ons can be time-consuming. The UltraPAK, with its substantial library, can be quite large (around 140 GB). Users with slow internet connections might face challenges during installation. Items #4 and #5 resonate with me which is why a) I tend to include one or more tracks in my songs recorded on a physical keyboard to break-out of the standard styles available in BiaB and b) I think a “grammy-level” YouTube or other format, showcasing the variety and depth of BiaB, might go far in attracting new users. As for the bugs and occaisional instability, what useful program has zero-bugs?
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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That was fun. Items #2 and #3 are two heads of the same coin. Item #6 is dramatically understated if one considers the Audiophile version, at over 2 TB, instead of the UltraPak as stated. And I think BIAB is providing new ways to get around #4, so "somewhat" is less so..
BIAB 2024 Win Audiophile. Software: Studio One 6.5 Pro, Swam horns, Acoustica-7, Notion 6; Win 11 Home. Hardware: Intel i9, 32 Gb; Roland Integra-7, Presonus Studio 192, Presonus Faderport 8, Royer 121, Adam Sub8 & Neumann 120 monitors
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The "PGMusic Granny Awards", when I first started with Biab/RB creating tracks for artist I made a few music videos that were using out of the box styles that ended up on the cable channel CMT. I tried to encourage other users to do the same and made a few how to tutorials, but I don't know if that ever went anywhere ? Are there videos now in the showcase forum as I don't really visit it ? I just thought if there was a showcase with good quality music videos it would help promote Biab. https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=317864https://www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=318836
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Steve,
That's an interesting Q/A list.
Q1 is not really relevant as good percentage of young people are into EDM, Hip Hop and alike genres, which BIAB is not. Seems BIAB users are into Folk, Country, Rock, Jazz, Blues, Pop, R&B and similar. I doubt AI will do a deep analysis of that. So if a hypothetical "young" person are into genres BIAB has to offer, he/she (*they) will have no better option than BIAB, unless they want to simply be a Suno button presser.
Q3 part #4 will definitely be solved by VST3 if done right, with user friendly MIDI in/out to other plugins that sit within BIAB. Usable "libraries" would include all sample phrased Kontakt instruments: Guitars, bases, orchestral strings and even ukulele. All Toontrack second generation items and endless algorithmic and programmable MIDI arpeggiators and sequencers. But given that a User is at least somewhat interested in genres/content BIAB has to offer to create fusion tunes.
Q3 part#6 Is also strange. Ultrapak with most/all addons is ~150GB. In terms of money, that's only like $12-$15 on fast HD. , and if you are ordering actual disk from PGM, which I think ships on SSD now, that should not be an issue at all.
-----
Some interesting topics are touched upon. Musiocity, I think "Ghost Town" might not be a "bad" thing. People could be just doing their stuff. Spring yard work for one.
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Band-in-a-Box for Windows
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I think they all must be doing their spring yard work still for a few years now. You get something like EZ Drummer EZ Keys, everybody knows them, how many people out there making music in a DAW even know about Biab and the BBPlugin ? The Plugin needs to be EZBBvst, without the steep learning curve of Biab and the million and one features, simplicity and ease of use. Isn't this what makes the Toontracks Plugins popular. There are no other apps running in the background, the Plugin does it all. I can drag any midi into EZKeys and it will fit it to the chord progression, I can't do that with Biab. I did make a Plugin to do all this but it was a pain in the asss trying to route it all in Biab without proper Plugin chaining. Biab Snap MIDI To Chords Biab MIDI Key Snap
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Steve,
That's an interesting Q/A list.
Q1 is not really relevant as good percentage of young people are into EDM, Hip Hop and alike genres, which BIAB is not. Seems BIAB users are into Folk, Country, Rock, Jazz, Blues, Pop, R&B and similar. I doubt AI will do a deep analysis of that. So if a hypothetical "young" person are into genres BIAB has to offer, he/she (*they) will have no better option than BIAB, unless they want to simply be a Suno button presser. A4. 1. Hip-Hop/Rap 2. Pop 3. EDM 4. Rock 5. Indie/Alternative Q5. What are the top 5 music genres of interest to people over 50? Please list them in descending order.A5. 1. Blues 2. Jazz 3. Country (Traditional) 4. Singer/Songwriter 5. Hard Rock/Prog Rock/Metal Q6. Are there any alternatives to BIAB?A6. 1. Impro-Visor: An open-source music notation program designed to help jazz musicians compose and hear solos similar to improvised ones. It’s available for Windows, Mac, and Linux 2. ChordPulse: A handy backing band software suitable for music practice, inspiration, improvisation, and pure fun. It offers features like full accompaniment, drum machine with bass, metronome with chords, and more. ChordPulse is available for Windows 3. MMA (Musical MIDI Accompaniment): A free and open-source software that generates MIDI accompaniments from chord progressions. It’s particularly useful for practicing and experimenting with different styles 4. JJazzLab: A tool specifically designed for jazz musicians. It provides realistic accompaniments and allows customization of chord progressions, styles, and instruments 5. Rosegarden: Although primarily a music notation and composition software, Rosegarden can also be used for arranging and creating MIDI-based accompaniments
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677BiaB 2024 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
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Ask sales and support questions about Band-in-a-Box using natural language.
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User Video: Next-Level AI Music Editing with ACE Studio and Band-in-a-Box®
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 German for Windows is Here!
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 für Windows Deutsch ist verfügbar!
Wir waren fleißig und haben über 50 neue Funktionen und eine erstaunliche Sammlung neuer Inhalte hinzugefügt, darunter 222 RealTracks, neue RealStyles, MIDI SuperTracks, Instrumental Studies, "Songs with Vocals" Artist Performance Sets, abspielbare RealTracks Set 3, abspielbare RealDrums Set 2, zwei neue Sets von "RealDrums Stems", XPro Styles PAK 6, Xtra Styles PAK 17 und mehr!
Paket | Was ist Neu
Update Your PowerTracks Pro Audio 2024 Today!
The Newest RealBand 2024 Update is Here!
The newest RealBand 2024 Build 5 update is now available!
Download and install this to your RealBand 2024 for updated print options, streamlined loading and saving of .SGU & MGU (BB) files, and to add a number of program adjustments that address user-reported bugs and concerns.
This free update is available to all RealBand 2024 users. To learn more about this update and download it, head to www.pgmusic.com/support.realband.htm#20245
The Band-in-a-Box® Flash Drive Backup Option
Today (April 5) is National Flash Drive Day!
Did you know... not only can you download your Band-in-a-Box® Pro, MegaPAK, or PlusPAK purchase - you can also choose to add a flash drive backup copy with the installation files for only $15? It even comes with a Band-in-a-Box® keychain!
For the larger Band-in-a-Box® packages (UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, Audiophile Edition), the hard drive backup copy is available for only $25. This will include a preinstalled and ready to use program, along with your installation files.
Backup copies are offered during the checkout process on our website.
Already purchased your e-delivery version, and now you wish you had a backup copy? It's not too late! If your purchase was for the current version of Band-in-a-Box®, you can still reach out to our team directly to place your backup copy order!
Note: the Band-in-a-Box® keychain is only included with flash drive backup copies, and cannot be purchased separately.
Handy flash drive tip: Always try plugging in a USB device the wrong way first? If your flash drive (or other USB plug) doesn't have a symbol to indicate which way is up, look for the side with a seam on the metal connector (it only has a line across one side) - that's the side that either faces down or to the left, depending on your port placement.
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows® Today!
Update your Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows for free with build 1111!
With this update, there's more control when saving images from the Print Preview window, we've added defaults to the MultiPicker for sorting and font size, updated printing options, updated RealTracks and other content, and addressed user-reported issues with the StylePicker, MIDI Soloists, key signature changes, and more!
Learn more about this free update for Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows at www.pgmusic.com/support_windowsupdates.htm#1111
Band-in-a-Box® 2024 Review: 4.75 out of 5 Stars!
If you're looking for a in-depth review of the newest Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows version, you'll definitely find it with Sound-Guy's latest review, Band-in-a-Box® 2024 for Windows Review: Incredible new capabilities to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs.
A few excerpts:
"The Tracks view is possibly the single most powerful addition in 2024 and opens up a new way to edit and generate accompaniments. Combined with the new MultiPicker Library Window, it makes BIAB nearly perfect as an 'intelligent' composer/arranger program."
"MIDI SuperTracks partial generation showing six variations – each time the section is generated it can be instantly auditioned, re-generated or backed out to a previous generation – and you can do this with any track type. This is MAJOR! This takes musical experimentation and honing an arrangement to a new level, and faster than ever."
"Band in a Box continues to be an expansive musical tool-set for both novice and experienced musicians to experiment, compose, arrange and mix songs, as well as an extensive educational resource. It is huge, with hundreds of functions, more than any one person is likely to ever use. Yet, so is any DAW that I have used. BIAB can do some things that no DAW does, and this year BIAB has more DAW-like functions than ever."
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