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Re: Xaphoon - a cool hybrid instrument jazzsax #83929 09/02/10 05:59 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,117 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,117 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	Quote: Am I the only one that is bothered by the intonation problems that are so obvious in the playing samples? I guess that is expected with this kind of instrument.<...> Seriously for the price it should be a lot of fun. I figured it would be like a recorder which you could adjust intonation by rolling the fingers on the holes and also like a saxophone where you can adjust intonation of each individual note with your lip. If I played my old 1925 King Alto Sax (with the voice of an angel) without "lipping" each note to keep it in tune, the intonation would be disturbing. But the sound of that sax is so nice, it's worth the extra work to play in tune. Insights and incites by Notes ♫ Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: Xaphoon - a cool hybrid instrument Notes Norton #83930 09/02/10 06:13 AM Off-Topic
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	All depends on the maker and hole placement as far as intonation goes. Well, that's the first consideration. Once that is established correctly, there are still some notes out of the diatonic scale that, as Notes mentions, can benefit from the half-fingering method. My first Xaphoon, picked up at a garage sale virtually like brand new, is made of a beautiful hardwood, has its own case and cleaning tool, looks great but has just one hole placed too far north on the darn thing. I have kept it because one of these days when I get a round tuit I intend to plug that one hole with a good quality hard epoxy or wood filler and redrill it. I was so knocked out by the SOUND of that first one that I eventually picked up another, cheaper instrument made from plastic (or some plastic-like substance). It was inexpensive plus the holes are as near to being in the right place as such instrument can exhibit. This one has fooled a few golden ears on recordings - "Who played the Sax" kinda thing. Now that we have RealTracks, well, that hasn't happened anymore simply because I don't bother trying to use it for that. My viewpoint is simple enough, I figure that ALL wind instruments, regardless, have some intonation problems. When we pay more money for the better quality instruments, we expect those problems to be diminished, of course, but the design of the Tempered Scale itself gets in the way of totally correct intonation. So I try to do the same things I do when playing my first instrument, the Trumpet -- know the notes that are out of tune naturally and try to play them either flat or sharp via the embouchure, the fingering, or a combination of both, in an effort to iron out those problems. The original creator of the Xaphoon also is a Sax player. Don't know if his website is still active, but he had some recordings of himself playing his hand-built Xaphoons and the intonation on THOSE recordings was not bad at all to my ears. Don't know for sure if there was any "note-fixing" involved but tend to doubt that as the intonation was not spot-on perfect, but about the same as one might expect from a student-grade sax being played by someone with a pro-grade ear and experience. That said, a single column with holes punched in it can NEVER totally recreate the true Tempered Scale. But neither can a guitar (unless you've had Buzz Feiten go at it. Tried that system once and got a guitar that sounded more like a Piano though...). --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: Xaphoon - a cool hybrid instrument Mac #83931 09/02/10 03:27 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,117 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,117 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	Quote: <...> My viewpoint is simple enough, I figure that ALL wind instruments, regardless, have some intonation problems. When we pay more money for the better quality instruments, we expect those problems to be diminished, of course, but the design of the Tempered Scale itself gets in the way of totally correct intonation. So I try to do the same things I do when playing my first instrument, the Trumpet -- know the notes that are out of tune naturally and try to play them either flat or sharp via the embouchure, the fingering, or a combination of both, in an effort to iron out those problems. <...> --Mac You are so right. And I might add many non-wind instruments. As much as I adjust the intonation of my guitar, there are times when I do not press the string perfectly perpendicular to the neck, resulting in a slight stretching (sharp) of the string. Other times I might press too hard also rendering it sharp. And then with vibrato, it wanders up and around the pitch anyway (same with my sax, a violin, a cello and so many other instruments). A piano is often "stretch tuned" flatter on the bottom, sharper on the top, so it sounds just right. Orchestra bells and chimes are almost always slightly out of tune, and that gives them some of their charm. My old Selmer Mark VI (the holy grail of saxophones) had very mediocre intonation, not as bad as my King alto, but not nearly as good as a modern horn. Perhaps that is one of the factors that gives that horn it's personality (which I think is now over-rated). When playing old country or Cajun style fiddle on my wind synthesizer, I find it more authentic sounding if I intentionally play with bad intonation (new "Nashville" musicians play with good intonation). If I got one of these xaphoons, I would do what I do with any new sax. Sit in front of a tuner for a while and play chromatically, learning the 'signature' of the instrument. When this is done enough so that it is internalized, it makes it easier to play in tune using my ears, because my lip and fingers have been trained to react together. Insights and incites by Notes ♫ Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: Xaphoon - a cool hybrid instrument Notes Norton #83932 09/03/10 05:10 AM Off-Topic
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	Quote: Sit in front of a tuner for a while and play chromatically, learning the 'signature' of the instrument. When this is done enough so that it is internalized, it makes it easier to play in tune using my ears, because my lip and fingers have been trained to react together. Insights and incites by Notes ♫ Exactly. And a great excercise for any musician at any level. My early exposure to the old Conn Stroboconn device in a school bandroom, the huge wone with the chromatic dials readout, played a huge part in my ears developing to fit the Tempered Scale at a rather young age. And this drill is something that I assign to all my students, as well. The PGMusic tuner.exe is an excellent resource for doing this drill and anyone who has BB, or PT or RB should have access to that one. TIP: The tuner.exe can run "standalone" without opening the host program. Just doubleclick on its icon in the folder. Or do what I have done for years, put a Shortcut to Tuner.exe on your desktop for ready access. Good thing to always practice long tones for the wind players. Typically done at first as part of the warmup regimen, using a Tuner along with your longtone practice daily can open up a whole new world as far as ear training and nailing the intonation of all notes goes. --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: Xaphoon - a cool hybrid instrument Mac #83933 09/03/10 09:04 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 7,687 Redondo Beach, Ca. jazzmammal Veteran
jazzmammal Veteran Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 7,687 Redondo Beach, Ca.	Quote: Good thing to always practice long tones for the wind players. Typically done at first as part of the warmup regimen, using a Tuner along with your longtone practice daily can open up a whole new world as far as ear training and nailing the intonation of all notes goes. --Mac One of my very good tenor sax player friends preaches this constantly. He's a killer ballad player capable of holding long tones very soulfully and he can also do circular breathing. When he does Angel Eyes or Europa it can be a show stopper. He plays a $4,000 Yamaha with the basic mouthpiece that came with the horn and a ten buck Fibercell and gets an awesome tone. Everybody comments on how fat he sounds. He can do some fast bebop stuff but it's not his thing. My other best friend tenor player knows about this but never does it. He also has an expensive horn, uses a custom $500 mouthpiece and some kind of $75 synthetic reed but still has only a so-so tone. Friend #1 has told him to work on his long tones but he prefers to keep trying different mouthpiece/reed combinations. He's a good fast and funky burner but lacks on the ballads in fact he hardly ever plays one. Combine the two of them and we'd have a monster. I really enjoy playing with them (separate bands) because they're so different from each other. Bob Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

Re: Xaphoon - a cool hybrid instrument Mac #83934 09/03/10 09:40 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,117 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,117 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	Quote: <...>My early exposure to the old Conn Stroboconn device in a school bandroom, the huge wone with the chromatic dials readout, played a huge part in my ears developing to fit the Tempered Scale at a rather young age. <...> --Mac I remember the huge Stroboconn fondly Ours was like the top picture, but I included the bottom because it's in color. jazzmammal, I've tried synthetic reeds, but they just don't work for me. Fibercell, Bari or whatever I've tried doesn't have the complex overtones that a good cane reed has. It could be because I play with a very wide tip opening and huge chambered mouthpiece (link 8* w/NY chamber). My most recent horn was made to order for me in Taiwan by an Austin Texas company, and it's the only one like it in the world. I have it plated inside and out with two coats of silver colored nickel, and the tone is incredible. The sax itself is quite heavy, and it vibrates nicely in my hands. The intonation is better than any sax I've ever played (I've had Selmer Mark VI and VII, Couf Superbas, and others). It's free blowing and hits the altissimo notes with relative ease - even the pesky high G! BTW, it's a Mac Sax (How about that Mac?) But not to hijack the tread, even this modern horn takes some 'lipping' to play in tune, just not as much as the older horns. Insights and incites by Notes ♫ Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: Xaphoon - a cool hybrid instrument Notes Norton #83935 09/03/10 11:19 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA R rockstar_not Veteran
rockstar_not Veteran R Joined: Jan 2002 Posts: 7,913 Colorado Springs, CO, USA	Notes: I wish I had one of those: http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/1/5/8/9/8/4/webimg/377178737_tp.jpg For piano tuning - very handy. I learned piano tuning from a gentleman who uses one of those stroboscopic tuners with all 12 notes. I have access only to some lowly quartz tuners. I've never had access to one of those full-scale/all octaves stroboscopic jobs when I tune pianos on my own. I'm guessing I do a bit of stretch tuning because I'm tuning the top 2-3 octaves and lower 2-3 octaves usually by ear on each tuning job I do. Haven't had any complaints yet. My Songs, photos, writing,etc. My Sound Cloud

Re: Xaphoon - a cool hybrid instrument rockstar_not #83936 09/04/10 06:09 AM Off-Topic
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	Today, I use the digital Stroboconn that has memories. You can take a "snapshot" of any piano as well, such that going back and touching it up with return to exactly where it was is a piece of cake. The digital Stroboconn also accounts automatically for the Stretch Tuning functions, so you don't have to sit there guesstimating the amount of "disk roll" for the stretch or constantly setting the fine tuning knob if you are one of those who likes to see each disk lock up. Piece of cake. As for saxophones - There is a famous incident where the great Charlie "Yardbird" Parker proved to all that there was less in the horn choice itself and a lot more in the player of said horn. Booked to play a performance in Canada, Bird showed up at the gig without a horn. He was constantly pawning his saxophones and then leaning on bandleaders to supply him with a horn for the gig of the day. Well, Dizzy Gillespie was the bandleader on that gig and when Bird showed up without a horn, Diz got steamed and headed to a local pawnshop and picked out the lousiest student sax on the shelf, a white PLASTIC bodied sax designed for student and marching band use. Bird simply played that doggone plastic saxophone and sounded exactly like Bird complete with his faultlessly exceptional intonation. There are a few pictures of Bird famously playing that white plastic marching band student grade sax. And recordings. But we all can't be The Bird, with such exceptional hearing and abilities. --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: Xaphoon - a cool hybrid instrument Mac #83937 09/04/10 06:35 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,117 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,117 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	Quote: <...>Well, Dizzy Gillespie was the bandleader on that gig and when Bird showed up without a horn, Diz got steamed and headed to a local pawnshop and picked out the lousiest student sax on the shelf, a white PLASTIC bodied sax designed for student and marching band use. Bird simply played that doggone plastic saxophone and sounded exactly like Bird complete with his faultlessly exceptional intonation. <...> --Mac That would be the Grafton sax, and if interested in it, Wiki does a good job here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grafton_saxophone The most amazing thing about that was not only did he play with great intonation, but his tone still sounded like Charlie Parker on a brass sax. Amazing. Of course, the recording equipment of the day didn't have the fidelity of what is available today, so many of the high frequency harmonics (which color the tone) are not recorded. But even with that in mind, Bird still sounded like himself. To me BeBop jazz has the same challenge as ripping on a guitar. When playing so many notes in fast succession, most players lose their sense of melody, and it becomes more like mindless scale playing. Parker never lost his sense of melody. A true master. Notes ♫ Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

Re: Xaphoon - a cool hybrid instrument Notes Norton #83938 09/04/10 09:54 AM Off-Topic
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 7,687 Redondo Beach, Ca. jazzmammal Veteran
jazzmammal Veteran Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 7,687 Redondo Beach, Ca.	Quote: When playing so many notes in fast succession, most players lose their sense of melody, and it becomes more like mindless scale playing. Notes ♫ Man, isn't that the truth. I did a gig last night with a guitarist who did that all night. Great chops and technique but really nothing but practice scales with little taste on the fast stuff. Slower, he was good. That horn of yours is beautiful. Gary, the balladeer tenor player, keeps his Yamaha pristine as I'm sure you do yours. He has a neighbor in her 80's who's husband was a big band bone player who died some years ago. She gave Gary her husbands horn because she wanted someone to have it who would take care of it. Now, he's a reed man and can't play brass at all but when we opened the case that looked like a real road warrior, inside was a beautiful Olds with two neatly folded cleaning cloths, an old picture of the Whiteman band and a half full squeeze bottle of lube oil. Not a mark on that horn, it looks brand new. It has a 3/4" nickel lip around the bell. I looked it up on the internet and it was apparently made around 1939-1941 or so. It's all packed up ready for the next gig. There's some guys who like to have an old horn that looks all worn out but sounds great who think it's cool to play something that looks like crap but I don't like it. To me a good instrument is a work of art in and of itself aside from the art that goes into playing it. Years ago a friend had a white Gretsch Country Gentleman. It was just stunning in the look and workmanship and he coddled it like the piece of fine art it was. I hope he still has it, probably worth a lot now. Bob Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.

Re: Xaphoon - a cool hybrid instrument Notes Norton #83939 09/04/10 12:31 PM Off-Topic
Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA M Mac Veteran
Mac Veteran M Joined: May 2000 Posts: 38,502 Chesapeake, Virginia USA	Quote: Of course, the recording equipment of the day didn't have the fidelity of what is available today, so many of the high frequency harmonics (which color the tone) are not recorded. Notes ♫ With guys like the famous Rudy Van Gelder on the job, that is just not the case at all. Matter of fact, his 30 ips masters often still are found to exceed 30KHz, even after aging of the magnetic media on the shelf. --Mac PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here You must be Audiominds. www.audiominds.com

Re: Xaphoon - a cool hybrid instrument jazzmammal #83940 09/04/10 03:22 PM Off-Topic
Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,117 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A. Notes Norton Veteran
Notes Norton Veteran Joined: Jul 2000 Posts: 6,117 Fort Pierce, Florida, U.S.A.	Quote: <...snip...>That horn of yours is beautiful. Gary, the balladeer tenor player, keeps his Yamaha pristine as I'm sure you do yours.<...> My horns eventually look trashy, although I try to keep them up as long as I can. The problem is my fingers eat up lacquer, which exposes the brass underneath, which eventually turns tarnished and later green. This is the main reason why I got my new horn from a boutique horn builder who would make one the way I wanted. I had him plate it with 2 coats of pure nickel. Not the black nickel that is in vogue with new horns, but good old nickel. Eventually it may turn dull like a nickel coin, but it shouldn't do more than that. Quite a few years ago, I traded some of my Band-in-a-Box software for an antique sax. It was made in Germany in the late 1800s and was plated in nickel. The sax was in need of repair, but the finish was still nice looking. I also called Anderson Plating (they specialize in instrument plating) and as a music dealer (Norton Music) I asked them what the most durable finish was on a horn. They said pure nickel. So when I had the guys in Texas make the horn for me, I asked for 2 coats of nickel and no lacquer. They even plated the inside of the horn (I didn't expect that). While waiting for it to be made, I wondered how it would sound. Where I play looks are more important than minor points in tone, and often a mouthpiece can compensate for tonal variances. I bought my Link 8*NY to darken the tone of a gold plated horn I still own (the gold plating is coming off with the lacquer). To my delight, the horn sounds great and is very free blowing and responsive. The intonation is also better than any sax I've ever owned (and I've owned a few top of the line horns). I figure that unless something unexpected happens, this horn should last longer than me. Here's another picture showing how it picks up the colors around it. I'm overjoyed with it. Gotta go, it's time to get ready to gig!!!!! Insights and incites by Notes ♫ Bob "Notes" Norton Norton Music https://www.nortonmusic.com 100% MIDI Super-Styles recorded by live, pro, studio musicians for a live groove & Fake Disks for MIDI and/or RealTracks

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