PG Music Home Forums General Discussion Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production Need your advice on making the switch.

I've mixed on headphones for so long. Now I've finally got some great new to me JBL LSR308 monitors. I'm going to get a bigger desk and/or some stands as it's uncomfortable and a mess in there now. So far I've listened to some favs on YT and some forum member songs on Soundcloud etc. The sound of these speakers and depth of the sweet spot is amazing. Other than the slightest vibration I can feel in the wood they're sitting on because I haven't put any isolation under the speakers yet I'm amazed how great they sound already.

The only thing I've really noticed so far is my headphones sound just a little bit brighter on all those same songs. How do I know which is telling my ears the truth? How do I know if I should change the bass and treble switches on the back or leave them at center (flat)? I know these may be dumb questions but I don't know so I'm asking.

I'd like any pointers and tips you may have on making the transition from mixing on headphones to real monitors. I really want my mixes to be better and get to the next level so any helpful advice you can give me on this transition is appreciated very much. Thank you.

Hi Josie.

I can tell you how it works for me (which is all anyone can do).

I do the initial mixing with headphones (ATH-M40fs - I think you may have the same ones - great mixing phones).

When I am satisfied with that, I listen through my monitors (Yorkville Y1). That will often show that a few things need to be slightly brighter (acoustic guitars, for example). So I remix to the monitors.

Then, going back to the phones ALWAYS shows that the new mix is slightly better (in the phones).

That works for me.

Unless your listening room has unusual dampening or echoing, I recommend setting the monitor tone settings flat. First listen to commercial recordings to see how they sound.

Try making some mixes and then compare them to how commercial recordings sound on other devices. But you’ve definitely made the right decision to mix on monitors and start relying on them once you know their sound. I only use headphones to check for extreme stereo separation and possible phase effects that could cancel the sound (such as two wrongly-placed mics on a guitar recording out-of-phase signals).

Hi Josie,

This is a great question and one that I'm still trying to work out!!! I know I'll be following this thread to see what others say.

What I think, for what it's worth, is that both the speakers and the headphones are correct.... just different. In a real-world scenario, people will listen on a variety of audio output platforms and each will have its own unique sound-of-presentation.


For me, the below is my work flow for mixing...

I sometimes begin with headphones (if it's late at night, especially) and sometimes begin with speakers.

I always mix in stereo. While I've read that some people prefer to begin mixing in mono and then translate that to stereo, this approach isn't the most productive for me. I prefer to listen to a mono output in Reaper at the end of the mixing journey as this can help identify some problems I might have missed.


First Mixing

1. Resolve any low-frequency clashes found in the following pairing of instruments.

• listen to bass and drums together
• listen to bass and each individual guitar as a pair
• listen to bass paired with piano

I talk about this a little more fully in the post below...

www.pgmusic.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=496844#Post496893

2. Once I've done my best to eliminate low-freq. clashes, I mix a backing and try slightly boosting higher end frequency on a couple of instruments to see if helps with clarity and presence. Ozone is inactive at this time.

I don't add too much high end here, though, because when I eventually activate Ozone, the presets that I tend to use in the software add high frequency sparkle and often this is plenty.

3. Add vocals and balance the mix.

4. Activate Ozone, add a suitable preset, and now re-balance the mix as thoroughly as possible. (Ozone now remains active for all subsequent mixing sessions.)


Second Mixing

When I come back to the mix, if I began it on headphones, I will now use the speakers for this second mix.

Since all elements of the mix are now present and have been mixed and balanced as thoroughly as I could in round one, I only tweak what is present.

Initially, I also usually find myself preferring the previous sound of the headphones over the new sound of the speakers, too. I've found that this is just an initial reaction, though, because I got used to the headphone sound in the previous session. After a couple of times through the song, my brain no longer compares the new sound with the old sound.

• Note... If I start with speakers and then move to headphones for the second mix, I find that I initially prefer the sound of the speakers over the headphones. Again, I put this down to a familiarity that's retained in the brain from the previous session.

I now adjust the mix and balances so that my song sounds as 'right' as my ears can get it on the speakers.


Third and Subsequent Mixings

Each time I now come back to the mix, I alternate between headphones and speakers.

So, in the above scenario, because I last used speakers, for the third mix I'd use headphones, the fourth mix I'd use speakers, fifth mix with headphones, etc.

Each time I now mix, I aim to get it as balanced and as clear as possible on the device that I am using for sound output.

Eventually I get to the stage where the mix sounds fine to me whether I use headphones or speakers and I no longer feel a need to tweak it. All I hear at this point in time is the slight difference in sound that is due to the audio output device (headphone versus speakers). When I get to this stage, I take that to mean that I've accomplished my mixing goal!

This 'homing in on the final mix' by alternating between headphones and speakers works well for me. I find it very difficult to get to the final mix by only using one type of sound-output device (i.e all headphones or all speakers). To get to what most likely becomes my final mix usually takes me around four mixings on headphones alternating with four mixings on speakers.

Hope this is useful information. I'm pretty sure that there are quicker ways to do things but I haven't discovered them yet. The above is just what works for me at this moment in time.

All the best,
Noel

P.S. Thank you for asking this question!

P.P.S. I see floyd posted while I was typing! It's pleasing to read that his approach is similar to mine. I use ATH-M40X Audiotechnica headphones. Before that I used ATH-M30. I was advised that these headphones have a good, flat/even response to frequency that makes them useful for mixing. They do the job for me!

My approach in similar to Noel and Floyd, I use both 'phones and studio monitors and my workflow is similar in regards to how I build the mix from the ground up.

One thing I didn't see mentioned is checking the mix in mono. This is important for two reasons:

1) Phase problems. These are easy to hear in mono, not so easy in a stereo mix, especially when using headphones. This is probably more of an issue if you are recording live instruments, but phase problems can also happen if you are using lots of effects on the tracks.

2) Balance problems. A mix can sound fabulous and perfectly balanced in stereo, however when played back in mono you can easily hear if an instrument is too loud in the mix, or not loud enough. Adjusting the levels while playing back in mono so that everything is balanced and then switching back to stereo ... is a wonderful thing!

I use Sennheiser HD598 'phones and KRK Rokit 5 nearfield monitors here BTW. I also have a subwoofer that I use from time to time.

Floyd, Matt, Noel and Dave, thank you! You guys are the best. The alternating with headphones first sounds like the plan.

Very nice speakers Josie! You will love them.

I have the JBL LSR 4328P, which are also powered 8" monitors.

I've had mine for about 5 years now and they still sound excellent. Good investment choice!

P.S. - I bought these to isolate the monitors:

Auralex MoPAD Monitor Isolation Pads

They run around $50 at Sweetwater.

P.P.S - I agree with Matt on leaving EQ settings flat on those speakers. Another thing to consider is monitor placement. Vertically, the 8" cones should be level with your ears. Your sitting position should make an equilateral (equal on all sides) triangle with the left and right speaker. Get out the measuring tape and check it out! In my case I have my speakers about 5 FT apart between left and right and therefore I made sure the distance from me to each speaker was the same. Got that info from one of Mike Senior's books, Mixing Secrets For The Small Studio.

Respectfully I think you’ll have a hard time finding a pro recording engineer who supports that.

And Steve is correct about monitor placement.

There’s a tremendous amount of info on this subject, including tons of books. It takes lots of practice and experience. There are no short cuts to making a pro mix.

Steve, I do love how they sound. I'm not used to that much power and bass. I've left them flat but I turned the volume on the backs down from 10 to 8 and with that I can't turn my interface vol up beyond 2 without getting pretty loud for the room.

Got a nice sweet spot angle and my chair raised so my ears are even with tweeters. Can't go higher or my feet won't touch floor. I want to make some diy floor stands so I've been looking at those.

Matt, I know but it's a way to keep going while I learn these speakers with this room.

Josie,

Here are a couple of interesting articles that I've just come cross on mixing -- headphones versus speakers.

https://www.musicradar.com/news/tech/monitors-vs-headphones-which-is-best-for-mixing-574584

... and from Graham at Recording Revolution...

https://www.recordingrevolution.com/should-you-mix-on-headphones-or-monitors/

Regards,
Noel

FWIW

1. I mix and master on our KRK monitors in a somewhat “live” room.
2. I then listen on our “living room” system - Polk Audio & Yamaha sub.
3. My last check is in my Subaru - Harmon Kardon and sub.

90% of the time I don’t return to the mix as I “think” that I can hear on the KRK’s what they will sound like on the big system.

The only time I use cans is when recording Janice’s vocals because I have no choice. And of course back when we were recording our guitar and bass tracks I used them but not for mixing. My brain refuses to translate the sound via phones into the live band sound I aim for when mixing. I’m not suggesting a right or wrong approach - just what hopefully works for me.


Finally and importantly I’m never reticent to ask mentors what they think about my mixes before sticking a fork in it.

Bud

One other thing to consider when mixing
When most of us came of age, speakers were the normal way to listen to music, but the number of earbud users has grown (and is a big part of the growing market share).
Then there's also the number of people who use their smartphones/iDevices to play their music thru the car/home audio system (but that's yet another deviation).
So I guess it depends a bit on your target audience.
<grin>

just thought I'd throw out the flip side of the coin for the heck of it.
Might want to mix for your target audience.

I did exactly that! Cut a couple of pieces of plywood for top and bottom and used 4x4 fence post wood for the vertical piece. Easy Peasy.

P.S. - If you need a floor stand, you may want a larger area bottom piece to prevent tipping.

There are other threads here on which we discuss mixing quite thoroughly. I confined my comments on this thread exclusively to the issue of using headphones versus nearfield monitors for mixing.