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#65295 - 03/16/10 02:25 PM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: excellence vs equality [Re: Pat Marr]
RickeG Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 484
Hi Pat,
I like your analogy of grass. I like to think that I set my mower to 3 inches. There may be some that gets cut and others that may not. My thought is I set the standard as to what height my mower will start to cut. My thought is these two words are not mutually exclusive terms. Excellence has no fear of equality. Instead, it is determined by who establishes the standard. With our children we have the authority to set the standard where we believe challenges them. Taking your point on the olympians. Their parents put a determination in them, whether positive or negative, that motivated that athlete to excellence. I am sure as they worked their way to the olympics they passed a lot of people that were content with the manadated standards of equality. Yet, it did not hinder their growth; only gave rise to it by making the playing field all the more advantageous for them to make it.

The end point of my logic is every generation in every society there has and will continue to be those who exceed and those who do not. You cannot mandate the human spirit. Even if government tries to suppress it by engineering mandated equality, it still cannot stop those who have greatness in them. It still is up to the individual to pursue it.

Thanks,
RickeG

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#65296 - 03/16/10 03:30 PM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: excellence vs equality [Re: rharv]
RickeG Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 484
rharv,

you are right. It is the church, and families that God continues to use to sustain the society. Both may have been bludgeoned by media and the like. A brief departure from Pat's subject. I am in awe over just how my family in Christ where I attend have responded to crises. I started attending there back in 2005 just before Hurricane Katrina and have seen several like catastrophes since. Yet, this prayerfilled body gets up, many them of worldly wealth that are either retired or have more free time, put themselves in harms way to offer aid at the center of the ground zero point of the location. Everything from passing food and water to reconstruction projects building back the homes and businesses shattered by the event. Plus there were even a few doctors that shut down their practices for a couple of weeks to give of their talents.

God is at work. If it were not so, church and families would have ceased to exist.

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#65297 - 03/16/10 06:16 PM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: excellence vs equality [Re: RickeG]
manning1 Offline
Expert

Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 1992
Loc: Canada
i feel compelled as a human being to comment bout certain topics in this thread.
(post is not addressed to anyone in particular.)
1. here in canada several hundred thousand manufacturing jobs have
been lost. ive talked to some of these people.
theyve worked hard all their lives and been "excellent"
and committed in their jobs. but thru no fault of their own they
have lost their jobs. and many are probably looking at welfare.
dont you think they deserve help when they need it ??
and have paid and paid all their lives ??
with their sweat and their taxes ??
why did canada loose so many manufacturing jobs ??
answer, cos our daft government has never implemented
a proper industrial strategy.
as i told my mp recently...
"no wonder you have a jobs problem..
everything is imported".
i perceive the USA and britain have the same problem.
2. lets talk about welfare for a moment.
the way some people talk , its like welfare folks receive a fortune.
it could be argued that certain european countries are quite generous.
but here in canada rates are paltry and hardly cover rent for example.
thus here in canada are lots of examples of homeless people.
a sorry state of affairs if you ask me in a supposedly advanced
country like canada. in the uk where i was born ..
there is a basic rule "everyone gets housing".
thus as i said in some ways europe is more generous in its social programs.
ive heard switzerland for example.
in summary nobody gets rich off welfare.
3. think on this...have you ever thought that some governments
purposely like high unemployment rates ??.
economists ive talked to have told me its to keep the
masses "malleable" and "undemanding".
govts are quite capable of creating low unemployment
rates ..IF THEY WISH TO. but some dont.

all i'm saying is..step back a bit before ragging on people
on welfare or the poor. cos there are many reasons why it might not be their fault.
(eg the manufacturing losses mentioned in point 1.)
the USA i'm reading about has had loads of job losses too.
(and britain also.)
ask any tecchie...and the answers as to why are simple...
britain, canada, and the USA have lots of what i would term
"old victorian style industry" plus currencies held too high
vis a vis some other currencies. all 3 countries need nothing less
than a top to bottom implementation strategically of what i might term
"future world beating industries". untill that happens the current
deplorable situation will continue.
for example the only jobs our crazy federal govt here in
canada can seem to create is low wage coffee shop jobs..
dotted across the country at 8 buks an hour.
none of the three countries mentioned seems to have a
strategy for building decent wage paying jobs.

frankly i'm just glad my wife n i are retired..
even tho the pensions arent rich.
just adequate.
_________________________
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.

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#65298 - 03/16/10 09:23 PM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: excellence vs equality [Re: manning1]
alan S. Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 06/04/03
Posts: 694
Loc: Scotland
The defining narrative of the last 30 years is the way the world has been dominated by the free market ideology of of Milton Friedman and the 'Chicago School' of economics.

The loss of manufacturing and the move to financial and service 'industries' (for want of a better term) is the result and it reveals the hollow way of trying to generate wealth without adding very much to the real economy of a country. It's a rapacious and short sighted model with the idea of generating quick profits for shareholders or to fund mergers and empire building; hence the inexorable rise of the corporation.
To all the Americans here who deplore 'big government' I say this: your corporations are your government, pure and simple, as they are in all the supposed 'free' world. You do not have a democracy, you have a plutocracy as we do in the UK and most of the capitalist world. Accept that as the problem and you can begin to deal with it.

But lets address for one last time the idea first put forward, that redistribution of wealth harms or penalizes the strong, the different, the talented and the achievers and favours only the weak, the dependent and those who willfully do not contribute. (with the emphasis on the wilful non-contributors as if they defined the classification a whole and as if the deserving poor should have to lose out because of them).

I cant but see this idea as anything other than the social/philosophcal equivalent of the very sort of Darwinist 'survival of the fittest' imperative you as a Christian country would surely deny even exists let alone encourage. But there you are, perhaps in denying its existence in the natural order you inadvertently allow it greater hold over your subconcious than if you were to acknowledge that without due diligence it can account for much selfish human behaviour. I would say the proper place of religion is to act as such a tempering force with the full knowledge of our tendencies towards partisan 'group selection'.

The biologist Richard Dawkins , who is Darwins self-appointed 'enforcer' of course, has stated that ...'There is nothing in natural selection and Darwinism for any of us, only pain and suffering. We should not seek to build our socities on those principles'

If he can state that then think about what you're saying here in the context of your avowed Christian ethic. If Jesus were here now what would he say to the original hypothesis posed here? I think that just as he surprised the self-appointed guardians of the faith in his time, so he would rebuke those who thought this way in the strongest possible terms.

To which you'd perhaps reply ... 'but Jesus they are the lowest of the low, the least amongst us, the sinners, ..why do you bother with them......' or words to that effect.

And you know of course, or should do, what his next line would be.


Regards


Alan

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#65299 - 03/16/10 11:51 PM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: excellence vs equality [Re: alan S.]
Mac Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/29/00
Posts: 38502
Loc: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Funny thing, all of that -- and more -- is prophesied in the Gospel.

Alan, there certainly are those who stand in pulpits and pervert the Gospel of Christ. Thanks for clarifying how you were meaning what you said.

I do invite you to take the time to do some actual study of what is said in the bible itself, though, for I fear that you, like many others, make assumptions about that based on certain actions and statements by others.

Discover the true meaning behind the *grace* of Christ.

I know it was an unknown to myself at one time, for the church I grew up in did not preach the Gospel in entirety. So many fall victim to this. As it is written, and as it has come to pass.


--Mac
_________________________
PGmusic FAQs, Tutorials and Updates! click here

You must be Audiominds.
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#65300 - 03/17/10 01:19 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: excellence vs equality [Re: Mac]
Lawrie Offline
Expert

Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 1439
Loc: NSW, Australia
What Mac said!
_________________________
--=-- My credo: If it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing - just ask my missus, she'll tell ya laugh --=--
You're only paranoid if you're wrong!

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#65301 - 03/17/10 07:16 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: excellence vs equality [Re: Mac]
manning1 Offline
Expert

Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 1992
Loc: Canada
alan S.
re milton friedman//free markets.
exactly mate.
you might be interested to know i had an exchange in the past year with
a govt mandarin about the free trade topic.
he trotted out all the normal stuff n homolies bout free trade.
to which i replied...and you might like this cos uk has the same
problem..(notice the rise of pound stores selling imported stuff
and employing people on the cheap ??)...
i said.."when your retired in the future and your grankids come to you and
say they cant find a decent paying job and are stuck on welfare
cos there is no manufacturing left in canada;
you can always sit him/her on your imported sofa, watching the imported
tv, and sleep on the imported bed...etc etc"..
answer..there was no response. point made.

lets not forget central banks in all of this mess.
typically staffed by economists n theoreticians whove never
ever built a product in their lives. and who dont seem
to understand the importance of industrial strategy in building
strong job/wage growth.
the bank of england is a joke imho. as an example.
because of their policies the major employers in uk are
financial institutions. (being bailed out.).
my major tenet is you cant run a country on just financial institution jobs.
you need a strong manufacturing base..but the good ole B of E ,
(and the bank of canada) have failed to grasp this important fact imho.
but hey..lol...i can still buy marmite here in canada..


frankly alan..
one has to step back cos i think its all geopolitics
the poor are being caught in.
viz big games tween govts.
my theory is manufacturing moved to the far east
due to big picture western govt geopolitics.
ie..western govts were concerned bout millions of people needing jobs
in the far east. irrespective of lots of
people in western countries ending up on welfare.
gotta see the big picture in all of this.
_________________________
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.

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#65302 - 03/17/10 07:40 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: excellence vs equality [Re: manning1]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18662
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
I don't think US or Canada gave a hoot about the unemployed in the far east.
It was cheap goods and cheap labor. Not sympathy.



Anyone know what our largest export is? It is more of a necessity than oil, yet we literally give a lot of it away.

The US *could* turn the deficit around, but at the cost of many lives in other countries. When you see 'the big picture' we are not the bad guys many make us out to be.
_________________________
Make your sound your own!

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#65303 - 03/17/10 08:12 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: excellence vs equality [Re: rharv]
manning1 Offline
Expert

Registered: 05/08/05
Posts: 1992
Loc: Canada
rharv.
i have never thought you were the bad guys.
gotta ton of respect for your country.

your last para is very telling imho.
which seems to imply, and ive wondered the same as to whether
the usa in certain industrial areas is sacrificing itself
to help lives in other countries.
_________________________
retired puter engr....powertracks on amd......NICE !
"what is the black art of audio engineering ?"
my silly songs...motagator.com/bmanning
see my tips in the tips section.

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#65304 - 03/17/10 08:19 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: excellence vs equality [Re: manning1]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18662
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
I know your opinion of the US is good, manning, we have talked enough privately to see that.

The question is more are we 'knowingly' doing it.. or are we using it wisely?
Serious problem that we can't make it up with paper companies.
We need to adjust the money coming in vs going out somehow. It would be sad if it came to using that commodity to balance a budget.
There is lots of talk about the world's oil supply falling short of demand in the not too distant future. It appears to me the world's food supply has already fallen short of the demand. Which is more important? In a global economy, that one commodity IMO is what keeps the US secure.


BTW, thanks to Canada for being the largest importer of US goods.
_________________________
Make your sound your own!

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#65305 - 03/17/10 08:35 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: excellence vs equality [Re: manning1]
Mike sings Offline
Expert

Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 1336
Loc: Friesland, The Netherlands
Citaat:

my theory is manufacturing moved to the far east
due to big picture western govt geopolitics.
ie..western govts were concerned bout millions of people needing jobs
in the far east.




Nah, that's not it.

One year, in order to get my bonus, I had to reduce the costs of our organization. So I fired a couple of people and had the remaining workers work harder. Cost reduced and I got my well earned bonus.

The next year I had to further reduce costs. So I decided to buy the resources we need to produce not from our local dealer, but import it from a far east country. Cost reduced and I got my well earned bonus.

The year after that, yet further cost reduction was needed to max our profit. So I fired all production-workers and replaced al production to far east countries. Cost reduced, profit went up and so did my bonus.

Another year has come, yet profits needed to go up again, so I fired all IT-staff and the tele-marketeers and had that work also outsourced to far east countries. Profit went up as did my well earned bonus.

Need I continue?


No, of-course I am not that manager: I couldn't face myself anymore if I would have fired people in order to secure my own bonus. But this is exactly the way things go. All too often you read that a company "had to" fire a lot of people and, in the same book-year, announce the highest profit to date!

And now look at yourself! How many of you people buy from online stores instead of your local store in order to save a few bucks? Do you realize that the shop-owner may have to let people go in order to survive due to the decreasing number of people that but their stuff? Do you realize that internet stores are able to keep prices lower than regular stores because of they have no need for skilled sales personnel and no need for an expensive store in a commercial area? Do you realize that a lot of people ask for advice at their local store and test equipment at the local store and then go order it at an online store? Placing the cost with the local store and the profit with the online store.

And what do you think buying your groceries as cheap as possible will do to your local economy? Will the farmer that provides the milk be able to keep his pants up when he has to sell his milk under cost-price? Do you think your meat will be from your local farmers if that meat has to be sold way under cost-price?

Greed is the main reason why we have economically harder times right now. Greed by the top managers, greed by the middle managers and greed by consumers. Go figure

* end of rant *


Edited by Mike sings (03/17/10 01:10 PM)
_________________________
Mike
www.mikewever.nl

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#65306 - 03/17/10 08:44 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: excellence vs equality [Re: Mike sings]
rharv Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/30/00
Posts: 18662
Loc: Marysville, Mi. USA
That first one is a good point and accurate example in many cases, Mike.

In my eyes it falls into the 'entitlement' frame of mind mentioned earlier. It occurs at both ends of the system.
_________________________
Make your sound your own!

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#65307 - 03/17/10 10:44 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: excellence vs equality [Re: rharv]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7478
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC

Around 1776 Adam Smith published his book "An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations" (generally referred to by the short title The Wealth of Nations) in which he declared that manufacturing is what leads to the wealth of a nation. During the time when this book served as the model for most developed counties' economic policy, the living standard of those countries increased dramatically.

Many people today seem to believe that wealth is a bad thing; but it can be used to purchase the things any society needs to benefit its citizens.


What disturbs me is that we are going in two directions that fly in the face of what has worked in the past:

1) the west has decided to abandon manufacturing in favor of service industies
2) During the time of manufacturing "plenty", social programs were enacted because in times of plenty there is money to do that.
3) but now that manufacturing is going away, we continue spending deficit dollars to increase and expand such programs even though it seems obvious to everyone with any sense that the ability to pay for them is declining while the cost for them is increasing.

The left likes to point the finger at the right and presume that we don't care about the needy, which is bull. We care about managing the needs of society in a way that is finacially maintainable. And what we are doing now (and getting ready to do on a much larger scale) is simply NOT sustainable.

It doesn't do anybody any permanent good to get people addicted to services that you cannot guarantee. What will happen to the people who are not self-supporting (for a number of reasons ) when the bottom drops out and there is no more money? You can't tax income that went overseas.

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#65308 - 03/17/10 10:45 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: excellence vs equality [Re: rharv]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7478
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:

That first one is a good point and accurate example in many cases, Mike.

In my eyes it falls into the 'entitlement' frame of mind mentioned earlier. It occurs at both ends of the system.




Speaking of which...

is anyone gutsy enough to say that people are ENTITLED to national health care?

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#65309 - 03/17/10 10:47 AM [Off-Topic] Re: discussion: excellence vs equality [Re: rharv]
Pat Marr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 10/25/08
Posts: 7478
Loc: Winston-Salem, NC
Quote:


Anyone know what our largest export is? It is more of a necessity than oil, yet we literally give a lot of it away.






apparently it's jobs
:-(

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