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I ran across Sinsy the other day, and thought it might be a good fit for some forum members who are unable to sing. It's a synthetic singer capable of doing a fairly good job with English. There are a couple features of Sinsy that make it stand out from other programs. Unlike Vocaloid, it's free. Unlike Utau, it's usable without having to deal with Japanese. It takes MusicXML files as input, and pays attention to various musical markings. It has a fair bit of musical intelligence, and does a good job with putting phrases together in a very musical way. On the downside, it's got a pretty distinct Japanese accent. It would be nice if they modeled it using a native English speaker, but can you expect for free? I put together a demo using BiaB: Words Like SmokeAnd because I can't stop leave well enough alone, here's a remix: Words Like Smoke (Mix 2)The music (including the melody) was generated by BiaB using the MIDI PNOMOOD1 style with a couple of added RealTrack guitars, although I tweaked the register of the melody in a couple places. I exported the MIDI file from BiaB and edited the lyrics in Finale NotePad. Sinsy wasn't happy with getting multiple staffs, and I couldn't figure how to remove staffs in NotePad, so I edited it in Notion and did a bit more tweaking of the lyrics. If BiaB exported MusicXML, it would have been a lot simpler!  The remix was done in Reaper - I started out fixing the guitar strums (they needed to be moved forward) and ended up messing around with the vocal track and Reaper's pitch correction tool. Fun stuff. Anyway, breaths are automatically added after long phrases - a nice touch. Vibrato is added automatically on long notes, and I'm impressed how well it handled tied notes on the final cadence. It also works with MuseScore - here's Ave Maria done in MuseScore. Actually, with the "ze" instead of "the", Sinsy sounds a bit like Natasha Fatale. 
Last edited by dcuny; 03/06/13 03:26 AM.
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That is astonishing--and good. The expressiveness from the Schubert score is especially (ahem) noteworthy. It is unsurprising that it has a bit of an accent, given that it was taking its cues from Kanji (simplified Japanese ideograms). It is hard to tell from your short sample whether it does better with English text. Even the slightly synthetic quality, something like a cross between a human voice and a Theremin, is somewhat appealing, at least to this electronic composer. Excellent work on your part, too. Thanks for sharing.
Richard
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Hi David,
Thank you for passing on this information. I'm astounded! It makes me wonder where music will be in 5 years time!
Regards,
Noel
MY SONGS...Audiophile BIAB 2025
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Wow...that's not bad...perhaps could be better used for background vocals huh? Does it also have male vocals? Can it handle multiple vocal parts for harmony and choir?
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2025, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Sounds artificial, artifacts and all that.
Bears watching, though, to see if improvements are forthcoming.
--Mac
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Huh. Okay, that Ave Maria was rather frickin' good.
Best, Tom SmithWin10/64 • i7-8700K • 24 GB RAM BIAB 2025 • Reaper 7 • Izotope MPS AKG C1000S • IK iRig I/O Pro
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Mac, the Ave Maria link convinced me. Imagine composing full choral arrangements in the very near future using BIAB and nothing else. Its uncharacteristic of you to poo-poo technological advancements no matter how infantile the current state-of-the-art. Have you had your coffee yet? At least my SLP (Speech Language Pathologist) was fascinated and is sharing this link with her SLP friends and I only imagine that she has access to all the latest advancements in synthesized speech. Have a cupa and revisit the link, my friend. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7K0-ttUBngIt has fewer phonyms (sp?) than the sample of Beatles' Yesterday (on same page) but the advancements in technology in just three years is phenomenal.
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Quote:
. . . it has fewer phonyms (sp?) than the sample of Beatles' Yesterday . . .
Phonemes (said the professional linguist).
Richard
"My primary musical instrument is the personal computer."
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Makes me want to take singing lessons!
My TunesPsalm 57:7 My heart, O God, is steadfast, my heart is steadfast; I will sing and make music.
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As Richard pointed out, a larger phoneme set would make this program phenomenal for English speakers. But it's "good enough" right now, and BIAB user can start working with this program right away. Having MusicXML export (of the vocal track only) would be ideal, and I'm hoping MusicXML export gets added to BiaB in the near future. In lieu of that, if you haven't got a music notation program and don't want to download any software, Noteflight is a web-based program that will import MIDI and export MusicXML. So you could get a free account, upload the MIDI into Noteflight, add lyrics, and export MusicXML into Sinsy. Most synthetic singer programs use a piano roll sort of interface. Because Sinsy generates good performance by default from the score means that it's less cumbersome than other programs. Plus, most of this software needs additional drivers for Japanese language support, even if you're using in English. There are a number of reasons that this software has taken off in Japan - the limited phoneme set certainly helps. Vocaloid was initially the leading software for synthetic singing, but the free Utau program has started to surpass it. An interesting feature of Utau is that users are able to create their own voice banks instead of being locked down to using commercially released voices. Instead of just recording single phonemes, voice banks consist of recordings of consonants and vowels (CV) - "sa", "so", "see", and so on. More sophisticated voice banks have more complex combinations - VCV and CVVC. So there are very smooth transitions between phonemes. Unfortunately, creating equivalent voice banks for English is a much larger undertaking, because there are a lot more combinations. But it's clearly doable. In any event, it plays nice with BiaB, creates musical results and is free. That's very cool. Don, interested in using it for any songs? 
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Very cool! Thanks for pointing it out David.
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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I hear voice synthesis daily listening to NOAA weather radio. An article about the evolution of the voices used is here: http://www.nws.noaa.gov/nwr/newvoice.htm
Jim Fogle - 2025 BiaB (Build 1128) RB (Build 5) - Ultra+ PAK DAWs: Cakewalk Sonar - Standalone: Zoom MRS-8 Laptop: i3 Win 10, 8GB ram 500GB HDD Desktop: i7 Win 11, 12GB ram 256GB SSD, 4 TB HDD Music at: https://fogle622.wix.com/fogle622-audio-home
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Hmmmm....apparently Yamaha is behind Vocaloid and a new English version, albeit by a Japanese vocalist, is now available: http://www.vocaloid.com/en/ and here: http://www.ssw.co.jp/en/products/vocal3/megpoid/index.html . Wouldn't it be great if PG partnered with these guys to develop an US-based linguistic algorithm to create the ultimate Band in a Box!
Win11, Intel i7 7700K 4.2Ghz, 32Gb RAM, 2x1Tb HD, 500Gb NVMe, BIAB/RB 2025, MOTU 828MK3 audio, MOTU Midi Express, Yamaha Montage 7, DX7II, TX802, Motif XS Rack, Roland Fantom XR Rack, Oberheim Matrix 1000, VoiceLive3 Extreme, Kontakt 6, SampleTank 4.3
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Quote:
Don, interested in using it for any songs?
David, not at the moment, I'm steeped in Songwriting Class, but afterwards, I'll prove Mac true: I'll be "full of it!"
I think we've gotten the good Doctor's attention and that's what we had hoped to accomplish. "Take it, Peter!"
I am so chuffed by all you've done in researching this subject, David. You've acted "above and beyond the call..." Thank you so sincerely.
With Dr Peter carrying the puck to the goal, I'll rest comfortably now.
@David I'll take a look at my current compositions but, unfortunately, I routinely delete my .sgu and .mgu files after rendering to .wav or .mp3. Color me stupid, but please try to stay within the lines.
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Hi David,
What controls do you need for a note, other than the time, duration, note number, and the lyric
For example, at bar 1, beat 1, you might want it to say "The" and last for one beat/
How many other parameters can you enter, for example, is there a strength setting (and is it 0-9?) and vibrato information?
Can you be more precise for the timing, for example, to start at bar 1, beat 1, tick 23 (out of 120 PPQ), and last for 87 ticks (120 PPQ).
Have Fun!
Peter Gannon
PG Music Inc.
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There's no doubt that Vocaloid can be quite good. Here's a comparison of all three programs doing "Yesterday": Yesterday (Vocaloid, "Oliver" voice)Yesterday (Sinsy)Yesterday (UTAU, "Camila Melodia" voice)Vocaloid is a commercial product. The editor runs around $100US, and doesn't include any voice libraries. Voice libraries run about $130US. There are a number of characters that target English, although they all seem to have accents of some sort. The results can be very good, but it requires spending money and learning a new software program. Jinriki Vocaloid ("manual Vocaloid") consists of manually cutting and pasting together phonemes of a singer, and creating a new song. (It helps when the language has a limited phoneme set). UTAU is a free program that started out automating that manual process, and eventually grew into a much more powerful program. Voice banks are created by users, and quality varies dramatically. There are some UTAUoids that rival the quality commercial Vocaloid voice banks. But... Getting good English results from UTAU can be a challenge, because it requires running a Japanese program with limited translation, and finding a good English voice bank. Sinsy apparently came out of a research project. I wouldn't be surprised to find that it becomes commercial at some point. There is currently only one English voice for it, and it appears to be built from a Japanese voice, so it's got a pretty strong accent. Using Sinsy only requires uploading a MusicXML file of the vocals, and just about every music notation program (except for BiaB, hint, hint) does that. It's really easy. There are other options. For example, MelodyAssistant has a VirtualSinger. It sounds like they're using the free Festival voice synthesizer. Listening to the VirtualSinger demos gives a good comparison to what's changed in the technology. I think this technology is still very much in development, so adding it to BiaB is an iffy proposition. But adding features (like MusicXML) that make interfacing with tools like Sinsy makes a lot of sense.
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I communicate with the R&D folks at Dynavox and, just yesterday, sent them the link to Ave Maria but haven't heard back yet.
In all fairness to Dynavox, their target market is Speech Synthesis, not singing/music. With no one to keep a fire under them and cattle prod them frequently, the project will remain on the proverbial back burner indefinitely. Therefore, I need someone who can get the project moved OVER the burner. I can provide names and email addresses if anyone wants to accept the challenge.
David? You get things accomplished. Would you consider accepting the task?
Thanks.
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Quote:
What controls do you need for a note, other than the time, duration, note number, and the lyric
It depends which program you're talking about.
Sinsy takes well-formed MusicXML. There are a lot of elements in MusicXML that aren't required, and it looks like it'll accept a pretty minimal MusicXML file. As I mentioned, just about any music notation will generate MusicXML, and while it's a bit verbose, it's not that hard to generate.
Off tangent for a moment...
I haven't got a Vocaloid, but I know that it's got it's own VSQ file format. It imports MIDI data, and I suspect that's how most people interface with it.
I won't even touch UTAU... There's way too much fiddling to get the Japanese localization working on my machine, and it's only half-translated anyway.
The free Festival system had an old XML file format that looked a lot like what you're describing - a note list of phonemes with pitch and timing. You can see an example of it here. I haven't kept up with Festival, and the document is pretty old (in computer years) - back in 2002.
End of tangent
Quote:
How many other parameters can you enter, for example, is there a strength setting (and is it 0-9?) and vibrato information?
The Sinsy documentation (on the main page) says:
The following musical symbols are supported: tie, slur, staccato, accent, dynamics, crescendo, decrescendo, breath mark.
Quote:
Can you be more precise for the timing, for example, to start at bar 1, beat 1, tick 23 (out of 120 PPQ), and last for 87 ticks (120 PPQ).
Yes, MusicXML will let you get down to that resolution. There are two portions to MusicXML: the displayed notation, and the actual performance. Like MIDI, you specify you base tick value, and you can give the timing relative to that tick. Here's an example (sorry, but the indentation is lost):
Quote:
<measure number="6">
<attributes/>
<note>
<pitch>
<step>B</step>
<octave>5</octave>
</pitch>
<duration>192</duration>
<voice>1</voice>
<type>half</type>
<dot/>
<lyric number="1">
<syllabic>single</syllabic>
<text>this</text>
</lyric>
</note>
</measure>
Really, the simplest thing to do is export a MIDI melody from BiaB, import it into just about any music notation program, add lyrics and export the MusicXML.
While Sinsy is really cool in that it automatically does this stuff, I don't know what their licence is, and I don't know that there's any guarantee that the web site will stay up, and how accessible it will be.
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Quote:
In all fairness to Dynavox, their target market is Speech Synthesis, not singing/music.
I think this is a key point. Music requires a lot of things that "ordinary" speech synthesis doesn't. Here is a paper that does a good job explaining it.
The frequency envelope of the voice needs to take into account a number of additional factors:
- Portamento: Notes that belong to the same word or phrase should be smoothly connected, instead of jumping from note to note.
- Preparation: Before moving to the next note, the pitch may move in the opposite direction first in preparation of the change.
- Overshoot: Before hitting the target pitch, the pitch may overshoot the target.
- Vibrato: Sustained notes will typically have an added vibrato.
- Fluctuation: Holding the pitch perfectly is unnatural, so some low-level fluctuation needs to be added.
All of these are easily observed when looking at the frequency match line from a pitch correction program. (I left off "undershoot" and "scooping", which I see on my own vocal way too much!)
The paper cited above looks like it's got enough information to implement these features. I'd want logic to prevent vibrato on notes less than a particular duration.
There's also the question of how well their voices will translate to singing. I assume the DynaVox model automatically handles formant preservation since they're synthesizing the voice in the first place. The paper cites the addition of a "singing formant" at about 3kHa, along with amplitude modulation based on vibrato (volume changes along with the vibrato).
Quote:
With no one to keep a fire under them and cattle prod them frequently, the project will remain on the proverbial back burner indefinitely. Therefore, I need someone who can get the project moved OVER the burner. I can provide names and email addresses if anyone wants to accept the challenge.
If the DynaVox people are truly interesting in this, I could prod them.
I don't know how difficult this would be to add to their product, but the basic ideas are pretty straight forward. Basically, it's a matter of creating a dynamic frequency envelope. That'll get you a long way to a more realistic singing voice.
There was a project like this for the free Festival system, but it seems to be mostly dead links now. While Festival is legible, it's not really that pleasant to listen to.
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- 128 GM MIDI Patch Audio Demos.
Looking for more great add-ons, then upgrade to the 2025 49-PAK for just $49 and you'll get:
- 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums with 20 RealStyles,
- FLAC Files (lossless audio files) for the 20 Bonus Unreleased RealTracks and RealDrums
- Look Ma! More MIDI 14: SynthMaster,
- Instrumental Studies Set 23: More '80s Hard Rock Soloing,
- MIDI SuperTracks Set 45: More SynthMaster
- Artist Performance Set 18: Songs with Vocals 8
- RealDrums Stems Set 8: Pop, Funk & More with Jerry Roe
Learn more about the Bonus PAKs for Band-in-a-Box® 2025 for Mac®!
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Mac!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
New! XPro Styles PAK 9 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and higher for Mac!
We've just released XPro Styles PAK 9 for Mac & Windows Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) with 100 brand new RealStyles, plus 29 RealTracks/RealDrums!
We've been hard at it to bring you the latest and greatest in this 9th installment of our popular XPro Styles PAK series! Included are 75 styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres (25 styles each) that fans have come to expect, as well as 25 styles in this volume's wildcard genre: funk & R&B!
If you're itching to get a sneak peek at what's included in XPro Styles PAK 9, here is a small helping of what you can look forward to: Funky R&B Horns, Upbeat Celtic Rock, Jazz Fusion Salsa, Gentle Indie Folk, Cool '60s Soul, Funky '70s R&B, Smooth Jazz Hip Hop, Acoustic Rockabilly Swing, Funky Reggae Dub, Dreamy Retro Latin Jazz, Retro Soul-Rock Fusion, and much more!
Special Pricing! Until July 31, 2024, all the XPro Styles PAKs 1 - 9 are on sale for only $29 ea (Reg. $49 ea), or get them all in the XPro Styles PAK Bundle for only $149 (reg. $299)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of XPro Styles PAKs.
Video: XPro Styles PAK 9 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
XPro Styles PAKs require Band-in-a-Box® 2025 or higher and are compatible with ANY package, including the Pro, MegaPAK, UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, and Audiophile Edition.
New! Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box 2025 and Higher for Windows!
Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Windows & Mac Band-in-a-Box version 2025 (and higher) is here with 200 brand new RealStyles!
We're excited to bring you our latest and greatest in the all new Xtra Styles PAK 20 for Band-in-a-Box! This fresh installment is packed with 200 all-new styles spanning the rock & pop, jazz, and country genres you've come to expect, as well as the exciting inclusion of electronic styles!
In this PAK you’ll discover: Minimalist Modern Funk, New Wave Synth Pop, Hard Bop Latin Groove, Gospel Country Shuffle, Cinematic Synthwave, '60s Motown, Funky Lo-Fi Bossa, Heavy 1980s Metal, Soft Muted 12-8 Folk, J-Pop Jazz Fusion, and many more!
All the Xtra Styles PAKs 1 - 20 are on special for only $29 each (reg $49), or get all 209 PAKs for $199 (reg $399)! Order now!
Learn more and listen to demos of the Xtra Styles PAK 20.
Video: Xtra Styles PAK 20 Overview & Styles Demos: Watch now!
Note: The Xtra Styles require the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition of Band-in-a-Box®. (Xtra Styles PAK 20 requires the 2025 or higher UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition. They will not work with the Pro or MegaPAK version because they need the RealTracks from the UltraPAK, UltraPAK+, or Audiophile Edition.
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