PG Music Home Forums General Discussion User Showcase "How Do You Know (When Someone Loves You)

Howdy, folks...

Amongst whatever comments and/or critiques anyone may have about this song, I would ask sincerely if any of you could direct me to documentation about how to mix tracks in a recording.

The subject and practice is bewildering to me. In the sequencer, when I increase the instrument track volume, it "clips" the meter, which causes me to correct the volume by lowering it, and that makes the track hard to hear. So, I try techniques such as compression, which increases the volume until it "clips", so again I lower the volume and can't hear the track. I end up going 'round, and 'round, and 'round on that frustrating circuit. And then, I try panning the instruments, but they seem to lose "body" and volume as I pan to the left or right, until, finally, I admit I get irritable with the whole process and "take what I can get."

Hah! Good thing I live alone, huh?! Can't throw things at myself! So, anyone's help would be deeply appreciated.

Any old way, here's the song info:

Style is J!MANCNI.STY (Jazz-Mancni2 - Slow Pop Ballad)
Style MIDI Instruments are : Acoustic Piano (1), Acoustic Guitar (26), Slow Strings (50),
RealTracks in song: 398:Bass, Acoustic, Jazz Paul Sw 140 ('2' only)
RealDrums in Song: JazzBrushes2FeelAtB: a: Brushes, Kick b: Brushes
Soloist is #490, Sax, Alto, Jazz Ballad Sw 085, courtesy of Mr. P. J. Perry.

I used a Miroslav Phlharmonik patch for the tremolo strings, Edirol Orchestral for the slow strings section; a steel guitar patch from Edirol Super Quartet and an upright piano patch from Kontakt 4/Vir2 Instruments. The melody was originally patched to a bandeneon from Edirol VSC to lend a "French" sound, or feel, to the song.

The vocal track was provided by a singer named Courtney Grace who I found on the Web. I e-mailed to her an mp3 of the song, she recorded it herself...and "nailed it" the first time around. You can check out her songwriting and performance artistry at http://courtneygracemusic.com/

Thank you for reading this and listening to the song!

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=1321235&content=music

Sincerely,

"bluage"

-------------------------------------------------------

VERSE ONE

How do you know when someone loves you?
How should the words sound when you hear them?
And though you feel like falling
It’s such a long way down…

VERSE TWO

Because he tells you that he needs you
Is that what makes a friend, a lover?
Things happen, oh, so, swiftly
No time for answers to, questions you’ll never ask him…

BRIDGE

He sends you flowers
He holds the door
And when you’re dancing
You own the floor

Why break the spell?
You know him well
Yet, doubts still linger

Is he enough?
If times get tough
Will romance fade?

VERSE THREE

How do you know when someone loves you?
How should the words sound when you hear them?
And though you feel like falling
It’s such a long way down…

VERSE FOUR

Because he tells you that he needs you
Is that what makes a friend, a lover?
Things happen, oh, so swiftly
No time for answers to, questions you’ll never ask him…

This was an excellent backtrack and the vocal was excellent. Perfect voice for the song.

Mixing is an art unto itself. Getting the volume levels under control. I have found grouping the tracks i.e. backtracks and separate track for the ones I create allows me to balance the final mix. I found the tutorials for Reaper helpful with this..

Excellent song and Courtney Grace is an excellent vocalist. Very enjoyable.

This mix sounds pretty nice to me.

Advice. Remember the vocal is always the king (most important and prominent track). Everything else is there to support the vocal.

Instead of turning up a track, listen closely to what may be covering the track. Turn other tracks down just a bit rather than raising volumes. Alternately, if two tracks (instruments) are competing for the same audio frequencies, reducing those frequencies with an equalizer for one instrument makes room for the other. Panning instruments also helps create space.

There are many resources for mixing available online and through YouTube and many are free. You can also search about and find out a lot through your own research. But I recommend purchase of the mixing courses by David Wills of Proaudiodvds. Check out some of his sample video clips on YouTube. He is a very experienced and capable teacher. Be aware that he has courses for live sound as well as recording sound. You will need to be sure you are looking at the recording sound course. He has a very engaging style and it's as if he is sitting in the room with you showing you mixing step by step, one on one.

Charlie

Loren,

For all the "issues" that you describe, I was expecting...who knows....

This is really nice!

A beautifully written song. And a gorgeous vocal. Courtney does, indeed, nail that...

Your mix is quite good. Certainly not lacking in volume (as I listen - compared to the level I listen to others)... a hair lower, maybe, but not much. The panning, too, seems good. Good levels on the drums, bass and piano. And strings when they come in. The vocal is very well mixed (and processed - did you get that dry?)

I would suggest that the Showcase is the wrong place if you want a "lively" discussion about mixing and panning. There are many of the forum folks - with a wide range of experience - that do not pay much attention to the Showcase.

If you start a thread in the "Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production" with an appropriate title ("Mixing and Panning Help?" - something like that...) - I'm sure you would get a wild ride of a discussion...for that matter, you might want to start two different threads - one on mixing, one on panning (there have not been a lot of threads dedicated to panning).

It would help to know what DAW you are using (mention that in the new thread). At first glance, it seems like your output volume is simple set too low (as you listen on your system) - perhaps there is a setting you are overlooking (those with the same DAW could address that)... And link to the song! (or this thread) so folks have a reference (AND get to hear this!)

This is a terrific listen. I hope we get to hear much more!

floyd

Sounds great to me!! Beautiful song, beautiful vocal. This would be great in a film. I love this style and your vocalist is magical. GREAT STUFF!! Take care. Greg

Good morning, "Scott C"...

Thank you for your comments, sir!

And now, humbly, I am about to reveal my profound ignorance of technical terms related to audio: what is a "backtrack?"

It's okay to laugh, 'cuz I'm laughing at myself!

Gratefully,

"bluage"

Hello, "Charlie Fogle"...

"Turn other tracks down just a bit rather than raising volumes." That makes a whole lotta sense to me. In the wake of reading your advice, I realize now that I was pitting one track's volume against the other:

"I'm the piano! I got 88 keys, and I have a right to be heard above all else!"
"Oh, yeah? Well, I'm the acoustic bass, bub, and if you can't hear me, you're lost!!!" And so on...

Okay. The vocal is king (or, queen, depending on the singer's sex!) I think what complicated things for me on this song is that it was the first time I worked with a vocal track, and it seemed to diminish the volume of the instrumental tracks.

I will go to YouTube and check out Mr. Wills' videos. Afterwards, if I have any questions, may I come back here to the forum and consult with you?

Thank you very much for the time you took to listen to the song and post such comprehensive notes for me.

Sincerely,

"bluage"

"Greg Johnson"...

It's interesting that you felt the song "would be great in a film" because that's exactly what I told Ms. Grace after I heard her vocal track for the first time. Now, I guess I gotta get busy and write a screenplay for it!

Thank you, sir, for giving the song a listen.

Sincerely,

"bluage"

Good afternoon, Mr. Jane...

First of all, please allow me to express my heartfelt thanks for your comprehensive feedback on the production issues I described. It inspired me to come up with a new translation of the Band-in-a-Box acronym, "BIAB": "Brother, It's All Better (now!)"

I followed your instructions and posted the thread you advised me to do in the "Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production" forum under the title, "Mixing and panning help".

Also, I'm equally grateful for your kind words about the song, and also regarding Ms. Grace's vocal track.

I wish you (and all the other respondents) well!

Truly,

Loren / a.k.a. "bluage"

bluage, your track sounds pretty good to me. I didn't hear much of a volume drop. And that vocal was wonderful! A video series I found on YouTube called "Produce Like A Pro" might be very helpful to you. I have found for my tracks that using a limiter in the master stereo track really helps increase volume without clipping the track. But it needs to be last in the chain of effects. But everyone has their own approach. Thanks, Torrey

Bluage
Nice song -very sultry sound with a nice instrumental bed.
Given the excellent advice already given I won't go into the mix (for what it would be worth).

Peter

Hello, bluage

Very nice song with beautiful melody.
Courtney Grace is an excellent vocalist.
I entirely agree with Charlie.
I also think the vocal is always the king (most important and prominent track). Everything else is there to support the vocal.
About panning I think each person has his own opinion and his own favorite, though the orchestral instruments is better on the same positions as real orchestra.
About the total sound pressure level, it may be a best way to use a maximizer like Slate Digital FG-X, etc.
Adjust RMS level between -10.0db to -8.0db and you will get clean tone and enough sound pressure level.
Enjoyed my listen a lot.

Best regards.

Shigeki Adachi

Hi, there, "Torrey Bliss"...

After receiving all the technical advice I asked for, I realize that I'm going to have to commit to studying music production techniques. I humbly admit that I've focused more on learning music theory so I could compose songs that are more interesting melodically and harmonically. When it comes to music production, my attitude was, "Well, I'll let someone else with more knowledge and experience deal with that."

Nonetheless, it was nice of you to listen to the song! And thanks for hipping me to the YouTube resource, which I will visit.

Thank you for your feedback!

Sincerely,

"bluage"

Hello, Shigeki!

Your post had me running to the Web to familiarize myself with the things you mentioned concerning mixing and panning: "maximizer", "RMS", and more. But that's a good thing!

Regarding orchestral instruments placement in the mix, before I mixed my tracks I did consult some diagrams I found on the Web to learn how to approximate the spatial arrangement of instruments, so your advice was right on!

Your comments on the song and the vocalist are greatly appreciated and encouraging.

Thanks, Shigeki!

Sincerely,

"bluage"

'ello, "PeterF"...

So much of what I and others like yourself appreciate about the songs we create using Band-in-a-Box, comes from Band-in-a-Box, that I feel I should cite BIAB as my co-writer in my song credits! Actually, I do mention my usage of BIAB where I post my songs on the Web.

"Sultry" is an interesting word. Looking it up on the Web returned the following definitions: "hot with passion or anger," and "exciting or capable of exciting strong sexual desire." Yikes! I think the vocalist, Courtney Grace, was responsible for that!

Thank you, sir, for taking the time to listen to the song, and feeding back to me about it!

Sincerely,

"bluage"

The song sounds really good...very nice vocal and arrangement. Since you received a LOT of good mix info all we will add is to consider using a reference song. Meaning as you mix listen to a song which you like and is of the same genre. Adjust the volume levels to be the same and listen back and forth. Let your ears tell you how your pans, effects, etc. sound relative to the reference.

Nice listen as is!!

J&B

How do, "Janice & Bud"!

Your advice about using a "reference song” is so simple and sensible that it seems like "genius", which as far as definitions go, I interpret primarily as the ability to see things in places where no one else was looking . I mean, really, you two, that's some hugely useful advice.

The only problem is, there are so many songs that could function well as "references" that, now, I can't make up my cotton-pickin' mind !

Actually, three specific songs come to mind: Jerry Leiber & Mike Stoller's 1969 hit sung by Peggy Lee, "Is That All There Is?", Francis Lai's theme for the 1966 film, "A Man and A Woman", and Gene Raskin's "Those Were The Days", sung by Mary Hopkin in 1968.

Don't tell me, I already know! In terms of songwriting and music production expertise, I am aiming so high that if I was on a ladder, I would fall so fast, and so hard, that when I hit the ground I'd just keep going 'til I shot out of the other side of the planet. Wheeeeee!

I can see the headline, now: “Composer Tunnels Through Earth After Fall From Rickety Ladder, Writes Hit Song About The Experience: ‘Down -- and Really Dirty’.

But, seriously, folks, as "How Do You Know..." gave birth out of a seed, branched out of my mind and heart, and grew musical and lyrical leaves, those three songs were the ones that kept on knocking at my muse's door. I cannot tell you why. They just did, not that I was attempting consciously to emulate, imitate, or copy them, but there just was something about them -- the feel, the sound, the mood -- yes, the mood, especially -- that loomed over me and chased away everything else.

Anyway, as I said, your suggestion is immediately applicable to the end I am seeking, and could mesh nicely, even, with all the other generous and comprehensive advice I've received in response to the thread that Floyd Jane advised me to start in the forum, “Recording, Mixing, Performance and Production.”

Janice & Bud, thank you so much! I wish you and the rest were my next-door neighbors -- so I could steal your songs.

Truly,

LOREN (a.k.a. "bluage")

Cool jazz... like it

Hello, Mr. Kayne...

We haven't met "on-forum" before, but thank you for listening to the song and leaving a "cool" comment about it.

I noticed that your "handle" indicated you're an "apprentice" like me -- although since I posted a call for help with mixing recordings, I feel more like a "newbie"!

What genres of music do you enjoy composing music in?

Sincerely,

LOREN (a.k.a. "bluage")