PG Music Home Forums General Discussion User Showcase While Al David's Away from the Forum

Al posted a blues instrumental in February. A lovely piece that caught my ear.
We started collaborating on turning it into a vocal track as well.
Al's been unavailable of late - circumstances & life get in the way.
I've continued to work on it and asked a friend, Alison Reynolds - singer, songwriter, cellist - to contribute a melody & vocals.
Alison did just that and it's fab.
The backing is Al's creation:
Key=Fm , Tempo 70,
Style MIDI Instruments are : Finger Electric Bass (34), Bright Piano (2)
RealTracks in song: 3438:Guitar, Electric, Soloist
BritPsycPopBallad Ev 065
RealDrums in Song: BluesRockSlowEv^5-Snr,Ride
RealDrums in Song:BluesRockSlowEv^5-a:Snare , b:Snare, Ride



I'm looking for comments/suggestions/ideas to improve it so that I can present Al with a tidy package of his excellent work.

Here's a faux mastered version for your ears.

WARNING - it's a bit dark.
All Night Tears
Here's a remix taking account of most suggestions made yesterday.
I tried all of them but not all "worked".
I discussed and trialled the "pitch" bits with Alison. She's adamant she intended and likes the slides/drops in V1 so we agreed to leave them be. I'm still working on the metallic sound Misha hears...there's a graininess to the el. piano that seems to be the problem.
All Night Tears 2
I've had another crack at suggestions.
Some are easily done - others less so. The lead licks between vocal phrases are edited from the main solo track which was, in the original, the star & song long. Editing them to fit meant working with, essentially, what was there in line with the progression. I've reduced them to very few in the verses and as long or short as the phrase allows. The reverb & delay are on the guitar from the outset...baked on.
I added the chop guitar - sadly BIAB didn't have a real track that worked at the tempo so I had to edit one - every beat of it - to fit.
I looked into the ride cymbal - it's there in the Real Drum track BUT is so quiet that it took three iterations of EQ boost to bring it forward enough & then there were, as expected lots of bits of snare & other cymbals that made things ugly. In the end I tracked down the ride in the BIAB RD folder required, found the samples track, snipped the ride and edited it into the song...one hit at a time that made the chop seem like a breeze.
El Piano removed from the intro.
I'm not sure how I feel about the result as yet. I'll need to listen for a bit. As mentioned, I'm trying to stay as close to Al's original as possible within the circumstances.
Oh, and to satisfy Mark's curiosity & cobbled together a different solo from the phrases available in the other two sections that are the same (verses).
All Night Tears V3
A little more tweaking and, since I was about it I temporarily replaced the bass with my own part. Not as busy, not as fretless and toppy, (though BIAB described it as finger played), just becasue I felt like it. Normally I'd have played the chop guitar but after the time editing I'll leave that alone. I'll probably ditch my bass tomorrow.
ANTears Bass Replace

Lyrics
You look as though you've faced a 1000 fears,
Your eyes are red,
Your nose is too.
Tell me what they did to you.
For you to flood with all night tears.

Chorus
It's black and white what's gone on tonight
It's black n blue what's been done to you
It's back to back
& blow by blow
Home is the last place you should go.

V2
It's plain to see what happened to you
The narcissist beat a fresh tattoo
Don't light a match
The gas is strong
It doesn't matter baby
It's not you who's wrong
Just weeks ago was wedding party cheers
A honeymoon a brand new life
Bad jokes about trouble & strife
Now love's drowning in all night tears.

Chorus
It's black and white what's gone on tonight
It's black n blue what's been done to you
It's back to back
& blow by blow
It's not a life that you should know.

Chorus
It's black and white what's gone on tonight
It's black n blue what's been done to you
It's back to back
& blow by blow
Home is the last place you should go.
Home is the last place you should go.

Hi Ray,

She sure has a lovely voice.

The best part for me is the harmony part at the end of the verses/choruses - spot on!

A few suggestions to improve what is potentially a very good blues:

1. Drop the lead guitar way in the background on the verses - it's not required and distracting from the lovely vocals.

2. Vocals in the verses need to be quite a bit louder. Plus some of the notes need manual volume editing.

3. Needs a bit of a tidy up with some vocal phrases out of time and a bit pitchy.

4. Could do with a guitar playing the offbeat only to augment the snare in the verses but this may not be possible given you are editing a finished instrumental song.

Most promising Blues and well worth spending a lot of time on it.

Look forward to hearing version 2.

Best Regards
Nigel

Hi Ray,

I remember this one from Al. I love minor key blues, probably my favorite thing actually.

I really like her voice, and I like the lyric she wrote too. It needs to be louder in the mix though.

The way I approach lead guitar with a vocal, most of the time the lead guitar should be doing fills around the vocal, not soloing while she is singing for my tastes. It needs to compliment the vocal, the call and response thing, not compete with it.

Towards the end it's ok for them to both play at the same time, just like the way you have it now.

You have the start of a top notch minor key blues song, looking forward to hearing where it goes.

Thanks Nigel,
I've copied those suggestions and will apply each for a remix/repost tomorrow.
Thanks Dave,
I'll work on that. I'm trying to retain as much of the lead as I can because it was the lead & melodic instrument in the original version. Rather like the pedal steel part in the country ballad he and I did based on his instrumental.

Hi Al, Ray and Alison.
This is smoothly done and well sung.
I have one suggestion as Verse 1 has a different rhyme structure to Verse 2.

Perhaps change it to:
"You look as though you've faced a 1000 fears,
Your eyes are red. Your nose is too.
And now you flood with all night tears.
Tell me what they did to you."

Vic

Ray,
Pretty cool stuff! A very good start. Good drive, composition, vocals(!), phrasing, bass all good. Mix balance of all instruments is fine but..

Dave said it better than I would about the lead guitar. So I +1 on his comment. What distracts me the most is that metallic bell sound ringing that is present throughout the tune. The "after touch" tail, not the "hit". I hope I am describing it clearly. In any case, good effort. Thank you for sharing.

Misha.

I remember that song. You added a pretty cool lyric that kinda reminds me of my Abused song.

As for the production/arrangement, I agree with Dave, call/response would work VERY well in such a slow song.

I would probably double the guitar and put it L/R to frame the (really great) vocals, but that's just a personal preference of mine.
Lots of potential.

Thanks Vic,
Actually the rhyming scheme is the same - it's the 2nd half of V2 & that is in line with where V1 starts in the progression.

Thanks Misha,
I'll look into the annoyance factor - probably the delay on the guitar.

Thanks B.D.T.,
I'm incline to keep the song sparse at present but will attempt your suggestion & decide from there.

Hey Ray.... Man that is the best thing I have heard from you. Really nice.

My production critique is....

Loved the guitar. But as others have said, pull your faders down completely in the verses and choruses. A few strategic fills are fine. Instead of a guitar, use the Hammond B3 real track number 686 and let THAT float under the vox. Let the guitar rip on the solo.
Maybe bump up the vox a bit.

Other than that...loved it

Thanks GH,
The new mix has the guitar reduced.
I'm trying to stick to Al's original arrangement/instrumentation.
A B3 is something I use on almost every track but, for the above reason, I've not dragged it in.
I'm trying, also, to stick with Janice & Bud's mantra of simplicity while attempt to stay true to Al's base.
I will, however, do as you suggested for the fun of listening.

Ray, don't mind if I jump in here, having just listened to V2.

I had the same reaction as others to V1, that the guitar soloing directly against the voice was competing for attention to the detriment of both fine parts. This is effectively addressed by V2. Thoughts on that:

1) The mixed-down guitar still commands attention as a lead instrument, even at a reduced volume (this struck me as particularly true for the very first mixed-down note.) There are times, I think, where silencing the guitar completely would really be the best way to support the vocal — but you don't want to sacrifice that guitar material.

2) The main guitar solo, now dramatically highlighted by increased volume, is fairly sparse, and not necessarily the best section of the overall instrumental piece. There are, I think, more interesting parts that are now subordinated to the voice that the listener might wish they could hear by themselves, at full volume.

3) A way to address both (1) and (2) would be to relocate some of the "background" soloing by moving it in time to play along with that main solo. Construct a virtual duet by overlaying passages from various points in the song onto the solo. The repeated chord progression should provide plenty of candidate material for "promotion" to "Virtual Second Lead Guitar".

This might be completely out of line with your approach to this project as a treatment of the original recording, but I would have fun experimenting with that kind of cut-n-paste editing of the solo onto itself.

Anyway, I'm enjoying following this work in progress and look forward to its next incarnation.

One way to really clean up a mix is to use aggressive fader control. Totally remove unnecessary things from the mix. Don't let them linger and clutter it up. In the verses.... nothing but rhythm and strategic fills. I get the whole thing about being faithful to what came before.... but when you added vocals, and they are so good, everything that came before was now up for serious editing.

Again.... just my opinion.

Hi Ray,

I think your getting closer with Mix 2.

A few suggestions:

1.Leave electric piano out of Introduction and first Verse and Chorus. Then bring it in the second and subsequent verses - to give the song some build. Maybe a touch more reverb/delay on the piano.

2. Choruses - add a ride cymbal to give them a bit more energy. Ride Cymbal should also be in the guitar solo section. I just grab a ride hit from the Internet and paste it in. Time consuming but works a treat and definitely worth it if you are working on a quality song.

3. Yes I agree with others - either drop the lead guitar fills altogether or bring them up in volume significantly and take all that extremely long reverb off them. I would drop them altogether - there's plenty of action from the bass to support the singer.

4. Guitar fills - normally start a full or half beat after a vocal phrase and meld into the next vocal phrase. Don't leave a gap between the end of each fill and the vocals. Otherwise the song doesn't flow.

5. Guitar Intro and Solo - I don't mind a sparse solo and there are plenty of effects on the guitar to fill in all the spaces.

6. Vocal volume in verses - much better but a few notes disappear so they may need manual volume editing (not compression). Plus they still may be a touch quiet.

7. Vocals in the choruses - excellent and right volume also. A few manual edits in timing and note volume may be required.

Sounding Good - Keep up the good work.

Best Regards
Nigel

Thanks Nigel,
I've made some more adjustments and added bass.

Hi, Ray, Al & Alison !

What a fine collab on
this haunting tune !
I like it much - in fact
everything about it !

Cheers
Dani

Ray,
I don't know which is better V3 or replaced bass. Really, both sound good. V3 has more interesting passages, while "replaced" is more bold.
That "bell" sound I was talking about seems from elec. piano. I am surprised no one mentioned it, as some comments are very deep. Probably it's the difference in our hearing, as I can hear it still pretty dominants in V3.

In any case, love the tune. A+ colab!

Misha.

Love the sound of that first bass, too, Ray. WOW, this is such a brilliant next-level to an already terrific tune. I love the way you kept Al in there. SO sweet --the guitar, I mean... well, you, too. After listening to the first one, I went back to hear Al's original. SO good. Then came back to hear the last version for a truer experience. I now thank myself. Yes! Your bass is much more to the feel. Dang, that guitar sounds so good. Allison was an outstanding choice for the cool-lab. The perfect melody and passion. Hoping for more.

Well, Alison sounds great! We remember her fine cello performance on one of your previous songs too.

Her lead and harmony vocals portray the sad, sad story in a manner that reflects the heroine’s pain and yet also her strength. And the powerful lyric certainly sets up the stage for that.

The band ...
Well, thanks for the mention of our sparse arrangements and, man, you've gotten a boatload of responses regarding the mix so we'll just kick back and see what happens.

Having blathered that we do like what you've done with it and the most recent version sets up a nice soundstage indeed for this minimalist production couple!

J&B

Hello Misha,
I did do some surgical EQ work on the el piano...they had a really pronounced attack that involved a simulation of the tynes being hit on a Rhodes. I thought that was what you'd referred to. There was way too much of that and I had to do some deep cuts in the upper mids to reduce that. I'll have another look & listen to the bell sound which is part & parcel of a Rhodes, ( I had one for a few years in the 90s), and suss out if I can mellow it.

Thanks Dani,
you're very kind, as ever.

Thanks Marty,
the restless fretless bass in the original is really cool - not very "blues" but a great pick by Alan.
I think Al has an even better version of the guitar that he spent significant time & energy tweaking. Hope fully I'll get my hands on that.
I wanted to play bass just becasue I wanted to play along. I'll not be unhappy if it gets dumped in the final anALysis.

Thank you,
I listened to both TBIN & a mix of Emerald to remind myself of the need for restraint.
If nothing else this has been an exercise in whittling rather than modelling, based on those two songs, while retaining as much Alan as possible.

rayc,

I don't know if the lyrics come first or the song comes first, but I think it's a very nice minor blues that fits Al's chord progression perfectly.
Vocals are also very nice. The harmonies are also great.
It's a little surprising that this melody comes out from the cellist.
I've listened to V3 and I think the mix is also very good.
Enjoyed my listen a lot.

Best regards.

Shigeki Adachi

Hi Rayc,

Nice atmosphere with nostalgic lyrics. The guitar has its place with a talented singer. Well done

Kindly regard
Derochette
alias
JaniJackFlash

Thanks JJJ,
I do hope that not too many folk are nostalgic regarding this topic though.

Ray / Alan / Alison,

This is great... A finely tuned moody dark piece. Love the production as well.

Bob

Thanks Bob!

Yep, that old axiom: perfection is not when there’s nothing left to add but rather when there’s nothing left to take away.

Bud

I listened to the latest version posted. All sounds good, but my ears are not the best except for basic mixing.

Vocal sounds good. I wouldn't touch it with pitch correction. That would remove some of the character from her voice and performance.

I like what you two did with Al's piece. Love the melody and the vocal.

Ray and Alison,

Alan has a treasure trove of high quality instrumentals he has posted here! You certainly picked a good one! Your treatment of this one is spot on! Alison's vocal work really fits this well she has a wonderful voice! I think this will get Alan's proud approval! I was only able to check out version 1. The second link had a message that it had been removed! This only thing I noticed was a pretty big volume drop in the backing shortly before the vocals came in! Sounds like a great track to me!

Thanks, TB

Hi Ray,

I fear I am a little late to be of any use on this project of yours.
But I want to say you did a very good job with how you can let your listeners (we, the others on this forum) participate in the best result of that project.
And it's nice to see how many were giving you advise and how you handled that advice. I liked that a lot. It's another way of 'using' a forum.

Having said that, I wasn't there. Sorry for that. Although, given the advises you got, my assistance wasn't needed.
I listened to the result of this all. At least, I think I did. All versions on your fist page could not be found. But I found: 'MST All Night Tears by A David, A Reynolds & r cochrane' and listened to that one. I read all the tips from everyone here and that's why I think the song I listened to was the result of all that.
No loud guitar solos'while she sang etc.

And I loved that result. A very impressing song, very good vocals and man, it's amazing what atmosphere (or tension?) was built up with this song. Beautiful!

But if I might have listened to an older version of the song, it's still a great one.
Thanks to you, Alan, Alison and all the folks around here.

Hans