Just to keep the thread centered: The New GUI is only one part of user experience. The deeper issue is consistency across views (looping, cursor, zooming, scrolling, transport behavior), because that’s what keeps people comfortable enough to stay in the workflow instead of jumping out early.
Thanks for the ideas so far, Keep the input coming on anything related to user‑experience consistency.
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
Thanks for you comment. The point this thread and your response are missing is that the conversation is being framed entirely in DAW terminology and mindset. DAW looping standards don’t apply to BIAB. To use BIAB effectively, DAW users need to understand BIAB’s own standards and approach. BIAB is not a DAW, and it handles audio and musical material differently. The architecture between the two is fundamentally different.
Some of the six different looping functions relate to how the looping is being used; editing, practice, composing, teaching, or auditioning ideas. Some loop functions are optimized for exact repetition, while others may regenerate new material. Expecting identical playback on every loop applies to DAWs, but not necessarily to BIAB.
Don’t expect BIAB to behave like a DAW. Approaching it from BIAB’s generative perspective, the looping behavior is consistent with its design, even if it looks different from what DAW users might expect. DAW users need to change mindset. BIAB doesn’t need to be re-designed.
Charlie, What you are saying is simply misleading. " DAW users need to change mindset" No, Charlie, you have to change your mindset and try to avoid confronting progress and confusing people. Please, I kindly ask not go that route.
--- In my view some responders missed main point of the conversation. It is not solely about the looping, but global consistency throughout different views. Selection, looping, cursor start position, transport. ALL of these play a part in a bigger picture and have to be viewed as whole. And yes, it is absolutely urgent to fix items related to navigation, selection, consistency. This is not a "wish" request, but a report of broken items in a workflow.
Library thoughts are also very (!) important and they deserve a separate thread.
I am digesting and testing some items from jpettit list and will follow up when time permits.
Yes, and that's exactly the problem that needs fixing, not running from. If all of the functionality worked seamlessly, correctly, properly, there would be no need to go to a DAW. The O/P's post clearly identifies items that need fixing. There should be no need to go to a DAW.
Bottom line: I would rather have these functions work properly inside BIAB instead of having to take the song into another product to get it to completed. And that's what the O/P has demonstrated needs to occur.
AudioTrack, Most of the Greatest Generation and the Silent Generation are long gone. And Baby Boomers are now dying off. BiaB must be made attractive to younger folks or it simply won’t survive. The competition in this space is fierce and young folks (and others) have little tolerance for clunky software. Developers around the world know this.
You say “If all of the functionality worked seamlessly, correctly, properly, there would be no need to go to a DAW.” I agree. But that is like saying if the world had no criminals there would be no need for jails.
Reality is we do need jails and many do need an (external) DAW. Six years ago I gave RealBand a good opportunity to meet my needs and it couldn’t. There are lengthy and detailed threads on this if you care to search for them. Time is a valuable commodity indeed and I can't waste mine on convoluted work-arounds and time consuming workflows.
Have you ever used a piece of well-design, consistent, user-friendly software? I have, and it’s a joy.
Despite evidence to the contrary, my bottom-line hope is that some serious software re-design is done to attract and retain those young folks. In the meantime, BiaB, Fender Studio Pro, my bass guitar and my arranger keyboard are a wonderful team.
And no, imho, we don’t need another 97 RealTracks in 2027
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
I don't think I have missed the main point of this thread: It's to create a record of some of the very basic, broken BiaB functionality for the developers to focus on.
The problem (for me) is that this discussion assumes the concept of "workflow" has a single, well-understood definition. And of course it does not. Same with "user experience".
I have no issue with either my workflow or my user experience in BiaB. I just don't.
Is it slick? Well, no. Does it work? Absolutely. Could it be improved? Sure. Is it urgent? Not for me.
So if a developer ever reads this, I think it's important to present other points of view.
And with limited resources, I think there are larger strategic issues for PG Music developers to address.
DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
The crux of this discussion is architecture and intent. Stating BIAB’s architecture and intent is not misleading. It’s foundational.
BIAB is not built on a DAW-style, fixed-audio, timeline-first architecture. BIAB’s role is to define the structure and parameters, and to generate the music before it ever enters a DAW timeline for editing and polishing. That architectural design cannot be overridden by terminology, expectations, or rhetoric.
Because of that, when discussing transport-based behavior, the transport model should defer to BIAB’s architecture, not DAW conventions. DAW transport behavior is neither required nor inherently clearer in BIAB, and forcing it risks obscuring BIAB’s generative workflow rather than improving navigation.
I certainly agree that there are differences in BIAB's functionality and a DAW's functionality.
While there have been comparisons to what a DAW might deliver, I seriously doubt that the intent here is to make BIAB work like or become a DAW.
I am absolutely convinced that the intention here is to improve consistency in how BIAB itself operates.
BIAB & RB2026 Win.(Audiophile), Windows 10 Pro & Windows 11, Cakewalk Bandlab, Izotope Prod.Bundle, Roland RD-1000, Synthogy Ivory, Session Keys Grand S & Electric R, Kontakt, Focusrite 18i20, KetronSD2, NS40M, Pioneer Active Monitors.
There are those who have no issues with the workflow—those who don’t see any problems and for whom everything works exactly as intended. They cling to their methods, obstruct discussions about modernization, threaten not to upgrade, and remain nostalgic about antiquated approaches, ’90s graphics, and modal workflows—without consideration, or caring, what the average new user will think of the software when they run it for the first time.
In my view, because of people like that, BIAB is where it is right now instead of where it should be.
On a brighter note, I’m glad there are enough of us here who aren’t distracted by the noise and can clearly see that black is black and white is white—who can tell the difference between a flaw and “intended design.” And I’m glad the PGM team, which I believe is beginning to open up to bigger changes, is finally starting to turn the tide.
I would advocate for not using derogatory terms to frame posters with dissenting opinions. Otherwise Groupthink can creep into these discussions. We wouldn't want that, would we?
Truth is, the average new user is likely going to Moises Studio. THAT's a slick interface. This simplicity is what the next generation of users will want IMHO. And we'll never get there at this snail pace before something comes along and completely blows BiaB away.
Not intending to rain on anyone's parade. But traditional software developers who are competing with AI engines are going to have to NOT treat the current environment as business-as-usual.
A reminder: I was INVITED to participate in this thread...
DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
Thanks for you comment. The point this thread and your response are missing is that the conversation is being framed entirely in DAW terminology and mindset. DAW looping standards don’t apply to BIAB. To use BIAB effectively, DAW users need to understand BIAB’s own standards and approach. BIAB is not a DAW, and it handles audio and musical material differently. The architecture between the two is fundamentally different.
Some of the six different looping functions relate to how the looping is being used; editing, practice, composing, teaching, or auditioning ideas. Some loop functions are optimized for exact repetition, while others may regenerate new material. Expecting identical playback on every loop applies to DAWs, but not necessarily to BIAB.
Don’t expect BIAB to behave like a DAW. Approaching it from BIAB’s generative perspective, the looping behavior is consistent with its design, even if it looks different from what DAW users might expect. DAW users need to change mindset. BIAB doesn’t need to be re-designed.
I can agree that we shouldn't necessarily expect BIAB to behave exactly like a DAW, however, I don't think this is the argument. Terminology does matter and so does expected behaviour. If a button says "Loop selected" then I expect it to loop selected. In audio displays this is not what happens, it loops to underlying bar. Also, I expect F10 to do the same in each window, i.e., "loop selected". This is maybe not a big deal but all these small things add up to frustration after a lot of use. The only consistent thing in BIAB is inconsistency.
So many things just seem crazy. the "loop entire song" button for instance. Click to open menu and then choose from three options. Two of those options can also be ticked / enabled or unticked disabled. What is the point? No matter which option I click, there are only two outcomes - the entire song will loop - or not loop. Why make it so unnecessarily cumbersome? A simple on / off toggle with no menu option at all will not only do what we expect but will also be one less pointlessly annoying thing. Yes, a small issue, but still one of far too many.
I could make the same argument about terminology. If BIAB is designed to do everything different from the norm, then PG should stop using typical DAW terminology.
Again, all fairly minor problems but I could go through a typical day using this software and come across far too many similar, needless, agravations. It all adds up to a lot of frustration.
Not intending to rain on anyone's parade. But traditional software developers who are competing with AI engines are going to have to NOT treat the current environment as business-as-usual.
I asked my AI assistant for the list of computer languages it has been trained on. Below is the list it gave.
Systems and low level languages: C; C++; Rust; Go; D; Zig; Nim; Ada; Assembly (x86, x86-64, ARM, RISC V); Fortran; Objective C
Hardware, parallel, and specialized languages: VHDL; Verilog; SystemVerilog; OpenCL; CUDA C/C++; OpenMP pragmas; GLSL / HLSL; SPARK Ada; HDLs for FPGA; Q#; Solidity; Move (blockchain)
Emerging, niche, and experimental languages: Crystal; Nim; Vala; Zig; Julia (already listed under data); Idris; Agda; Elm; ReasonML / ReScript; Ballerina; Red; Pony
Notice any missing language? I do . . . Delphi.
The programming skills and speed of today’s LLMs have already surpassed those of moderately skilled programmers and therefore are becoming increasingly valuable to software companies and government agencies.
If other AIs are not trained in Delphi and if BiaB is mainly written in Delphi, then PGM is severely handicapped because it won't be able to leverage the coding capabilities that AIs bring to the table.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Just to keep the thread centered: This isn’t about DAWs, and it’s not only about looping. It’s about multiple views consistency , and how BIAB’s independently‑developed views need consistent transport behavior (cursor, selections, looping) to feel unified.
Here we can see inconsistency Cursor and Selection between nearly all views.
When PG Music set out to improve user experience, it goes beyond GUI changes. Consistency is a big part of that.
Studio One (latest version), Win 11 23H2 , i9 -10940X 3.3 GHz, 32GB Mem, a 4K 40" monitor, PreSonus Studio Live III Console as interface/controller. secondarily test on Reaper, Cakewalk, and S1 on Surface Pro 3 Win 10 (latest versions).
I really would like this to be fixed very soon - I don't want to wait another year.
These things are so obvious - why do PG not see it themselves and act on it - why do the users have to point it out in every occurance and every detail.
BIAB 2026, Studio Pro 8, Song Master Pro, Win11 Home. i7-9700K CPU, 32GB, ESI MAYA44eX, ZOOM UAC-2, Guitar Pro 8, Transcribe, (EZKeys2, EZD3, SD3, EZBass, EZMix3) Amateur: fiddle, guitar, vocal, beginner on bass.
These things are so obvious - why do PG not see it themselves and act on it - why do the users have to point it out in every occurance and every detail.
It's called software quality control; and it isn't easy to get right . . . but it can be done. It involves quality control engineers (with authority) involved in every step of the design/re-design process.
https://soundcloud.com/user-646279677 BiaB 2026 Windows For me there’s no better place in the band than to have one leg in the harmony world and the other in the percussive. Thank you Paul Tutmarc and Leo Fender.
Jeff that is the perfect example. I do not understand why some folks keep arguing against this stuff. It is as obvious as can be. Please feel free to do one of two things. If you disagree fine say so, but do not continue to push back and derail the discussion. Add something of value or if you feel that a different direction is needed open you own thread and let the user base either confirm your request or not as they see fit.
Jeff's point about consistent behavior is very valid in my opinion. Not to push BiaB to be a DAW i would fight against that and have in the past. I do not want BiaB to be a one stop DAW as i feel that takes away from the depth of it's rich architecture> it is a great creation tool. Charlie's point about linear design is valid as well since that is what a DAW is. DC Ron you said you gave up on RB 6 years ago. Well it has had some very nice upgrades since then and works much better. It still needs growth but as a companion to BiaB it is very powerful. If i hit a stump in what it does (happens very seldom) i move to either Harrison Mixbus or Reaper to finish.
Please PGM take a good look at this subject and respond to it. Either tell us you see the point here or let us know why they cursor, looping, and other inconsistencies are there or needed.
HP Win 11 12 gig ram, Mac mini Sonoma with 16 gig of ram, BiaB/RB 2026, Reaper 7, Harrison Mixbus 11 , Presonus Audiobox USB96
In my opinion, these kinds of issues are not "special," "different," or "non-standard" ways of doing things; they are just plain wrong, unfinished features and bugs that should be fixed ASAP. We shouldn't be describing these kinds of bugs in the "wishlist" subforum, praying that in a year (or two, or three...) the developers will fix them by presenting them as "new features." Again, these design and QA flaws are so obvious, and have such a massive impact on the user experience, that they should be fixed immediately.
On the other hand, the argument that "BIAB is not a DAW, and users shouldn't expect it to behave as a DAW" has absolutely nothing to do with what is being discussed here, and it doesn't make any sense to me.
Well, this is certainly a thumbs up. The more important question is what is the priority? A thumbs up will only validate that it's on the list of things to fix. There are a lot of ways to prioritize bug fixes, most often in my experience by criticality and complexity(cost)...
DC Ron BiaB Audiophile Presonus Studio One ASUS I9-12900K DAW, 32 GB RAM Presonus Faderport 16 Too many guitars (is that a thing?)
Priority should be fix existing issues first, before bringing new features. Especially those that relate to basic, tier 1 operations. Exceptions are when whole big chunks are being redone, as we had seen with UI. It brought something new and very useful, and on the way solved a LOT of obscurities that were added throughout the years. Which page of the manual says: ""BIAB is not a DAW" ?... Couldn't find it.
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