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There have been so many posts claiming BiaB needs a 'modern' or 'hip' new GUI that I feel compelled to ask; what IS a 'modern' GUI? Can anyone really define what constitutes 'modern'. I have fairly new instrument control apps in my lab that don't look significantly more 'modern' than a 15 year old copy of HP ChemStation. They look different, of course, since they do different things but just looking at an application doesn't tell me whether it's old or new.
As far as BiaB is concerned it is built around a grid so I compare its look to that of another grid based app: Excell. If I make the cells similar in size to BiaB I don't see any obvious difference beside color (ignoring elements specific to the operation of the app of course).
So please people, help me out. What constitutes a 'modern' GUI and why would superficial appearance make any difference?
BiaB 2013 b366, RB 2013 b4, WinXP Pro SP3, Toshiba M70, 1.8GHz 2GB RAM 100GB HD. Focusrite Saffire 6 USB, Ketron SD2. BiaB Wiki
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What many are looking for is an interface which looks more like what you would find in a "a real life" recording studio. I think it mainly centers around the design of the Radio buttons (which can be hidden) I'm sure when they were designed it was with the thought they would be recognizable across wide geographical areas with different language backgrounds. I think critics may want something little more "clinical" and a little less "cartoony"? Probably along the lines of the layouts for Sonar: http://www.cakewalk.com/products/SONAR/X1-Studio/Or Reaper: http://www.reaper.fm/or Ableton: http://www.ableton.com/live?a=what_isThese do look a bit more like an Excell spreadsheet RealBand is closer to these than BIAB in appearance and getting closer. My guess is that a simple redesign of the radio buttons would probably appease most critics though as an illustrator I do feel they do have a certain funky charm. As I have mentioned in another post, give the user the option of a BIAB "Modern" GUI or a BIAB Classic GUI and most would be happy....or not? Can't please'm all. Have a good one, Carkins
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I think it's mostly the colors. The basic layout can stay the same just add some different color combos like user selectable 'skins'. The majority of modern music apps are muted blacks, greys and silver with certain things using a brilliant color for contrast because people think that looks classy just like luxury cars. I live just down the street from a BMW dealer and the whole lot is 60% black maybe 30% silver and the rest in whatever colors. Average cars not so much. Maybe that's a California thing I don't know but I notice this just driving around.
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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Mike,
Please remember that there are at least two aspects of modernization that are being referred to in these discussions. One has to do with appearance. I agree that this could stand change, but leave it to others who can define this far better than I.
Another has to do with the toolbar menus which, over time, have "just growed." As features have been added, menus have grown increasingly lengthy and, to some, unwieldy. I have long asked for the ability to customize menus a la the "Individualize" feature that appeared in Windows XP, grouping frequently-used features near the top while not displaying those used less often.
I have even gone so far as to ask to be able to bold frequently-used items and to gray out or even remove features from the toolbar menus which I will rarely or never use, just as I am able to do with buttons. This would reduce a sense of clutter and add ease of use.
There are other examples of customization which go far beyond cosmetics which would make sense in a program which is effectively different things to different users. As Bob mentions, simple color schemes such as are available in Winamp could help.
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It IS the look, but also the new ways to add functionality. In the graphic below the sound is displayed in full frequency spectrum, with any adjustments being shown in real time. Flashy? Yes. Functional? Very. Point is, some GUI improvements could actually add to functionality IMHO. This is just one example, but it sure looks sweet and makes working with it enjoyable. Yeah, I see exactly that in RB now when using Ozone, but if the rest of the program and interface were more modern and added a little more functionality that would be cool. It's a pretty big contrast between Ozone graphics and PG. BiaB could look better and have some of the functions behind nice looking buttons or menu lists. Makes it look less dated and could easily improve usability by re-arranging some features. http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/__dynamics.html
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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"As I have mentioned in another post, give the user the option of a BIAB "Modern" GUI or a BIAB Classic GUI and most would be happy....or not?"
+1 I have no problem with the way BIAB looks as long as it works like it does now. I care more about the functions than how much more modern it could look. At first glance all of the examples given above have been around for years. Later, Ray
Asus Q500A i7 Win 10 64 bit 8GB ram 750 HD 15.5" touch screen, BIAB 2017, Casio PX 5s, Xw P1, Center Point Stereo SS V3 and EWI 4000s.
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There will be a certain number of customers that will not consider a product based on the appearance of the product, no matter how well it performs.
These likely outnumber those that buy it because of the fact that the GUI design looks like it's from Windows 3.1 era GUI tools.
This also applies to the graphic design of the print advertisements for PG products. They haven't learned the 'less is more' approach popularized by Apple, and mimic'ed by countless others. Whether well-founded or not, people will associate graphic design with product performance.
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A few simple things come to mind...
1) Allow me to re-order the buttons on the tool bar, not just show or not show.
2) Redo the pickers, especially style-picker. It is kludgy at best. Make all the pickers such that as soon as I start typing something to filter it, it re-displays based on what I'm typing. So, if I'm looking for a style that starts with "S", then as soon as I start typing "S", it only displays the s's. "ST" shows the style that start with "ST". Filtering is obviously more complex than that, but you get the idea.
3) As in an Excel spreadsheet, show what I'm typing in the actual cell, not just the little box at the top left.
4) BIAB actually has different color schemes (since that was mentioned above). If you go to "Opt, Prefs" and select the color button, you can define your own colors. However, the help system doesn't explain what each element represents, so it's kind of hit or miss. This was added a bunch of versions back, and you will see some of the pre-defined schemes there that beta testers came up with.
5) More than 255 bars - this has been discussed ad-infinitum.
6) More than 8-character style file names that can go into folders of your choice (it's okay to have them all in a "styles" folder, but you should be able to create additional style folders. Long file names in Windows have been the vogue for over a decade now, so it's time to embrace it.
7) The menu system needs to be revamped. I think a menu that covers the screen top to bottom is just too long. Make use of sub-menus for items that fit into one category. There doesn't need to be three different save commands on the main File menu. Create a Save grouping and put the other options in a sub-menu. Or, just have Save and Save As - when you choose Save As, you can choose any other options you want, to include the options found in Save with Patches.
7) There's more, but I have to go to work now.
Those are some things that I would think should be simple to implement and will give the UI a start on a new fresh look.
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 2x2TB, 1x4TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 2x1.5TB, 2x2TB, 1x4TB SATA BB2024/UMC404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/MixBus/Notion/Finale/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com
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Quote:
What many are looking for is an interface which looks more like what you would find in a "a real life" recording studio.
I agree that certain types of app should look like what they are emulating. A classic example would be a music player. They usually look something like a cassette tape machine because that's what most users would have been familiar with.
However, I don't think that applies to BiaB since it isn't supposed to be a DAW. Looking like a recording studio would give the wrong impression about its purpose. RealBand on the other hand does try to look like a studio as it should (whether it needs more work is an open question).
Ultimately I don't think looking like a studio counts, by itself, as 'modern'.
Quote:
I think critics may want something little more "clinical" and a little less "cartoony"?
I don't want to cause offense but here you have simply substituted 'cartoony' for 'outdated'. Whether something is cartoony is very subjective and no more defined than 'outdated' or 'modern'. I do think I understand what you are getting at but I think BiaB already allows you to modify the 'cartoony' elements. Try substituting a different font for the default chordsheet font 'Comic Sans MS'. That alone will change the 'cartoony' look.
Anyway, thanks for the comments. It's very interesting what different people see in an app.
BiaB 2013 b366, RB 2013 b4, WinXP Pro SP3, Toshiba M70, 1.8GHz 2GB RAM 100GB HD. Focusrite Saffire 6 USB, Ketron SD2. BiaB Wiki
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Quote:
I think it's mostly the colors. The basic layout can stay the same just add some different color combos like user selectable 'skins'. The majority of modern music apps are muted blacks, greys and silver with certain things using a brilliant color for contrast
Bob, I think your comments are hitting closest to the mark. I've been writing software since DOS v5.0 was the current MS OS. In all that time the criticisms of my apps have almost always come down to a persons personal preferences regarding color schemes. While I always hated 'skins' I clearly see why MS introduced them.
Personally I would prefer muted blacks, greys and silver with accents as this is soothing to my own taste but I also don't think it would ever satisfy everyone so 'skins' would at least offer the ability for users to satisfy their own tastes. However, I never want to see form trump function. BiaB does what I want as is.
Thanks for your insights.
BiaB 2013 b366, RB 2013 b4, WinXP Pro SP3, Toshiba M70, 1.8GHz 2GB RAM 100GB HD. Focusrite Saffire 6 USB, Ketron SD2. BiaB Wiki
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Perhaps to add on to the previous comment about Comic Sans. Comic Sans is so offensive to some people with a graphic design bent, that there is an entire web community dedicated to eliminating it from use. http://bancomicsans.com/main/This site has been in existence for at least 5 years. As an alternative, there are fonts available like what you see on charts from real publishing houses, that have the handwritten feel, but not the cartoony aspect of Comic Sans. I'm sure I've seen it somewhere, a Jazz font, specific to mimic the aesthetic of jazz chord charts. I thought that's what PG was using, perhaps not.
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Quote:
"As I have mentioned in another post, give the user the option of a BIAB "Modern" GUI or a BIAB Classic GUI and most would be happy....or not?"
Ray, I just looked at Opt|Prefs|Color for the first time (shows how much appearance means to me) and realized BiaB offers almost complete control over the colors. There's some very nice pre-defined schemes and the ability to create your own. Along with the ability to change fonts and modify toolbars I think BiaB already offers a choice of 'modern' or 'classic' GUI.
Maybe what we need in these discussions is to point out to new users that they CAN change the GUI to suit. I realize this doesn't address the other main complaint, that the menus are too 'cluttered' and/or 'deep', but it goes a long way toward answering the complaints that the GUI is 'outdated'.
Thanks for the comments.
BiaB 2013 b366, RB 2013 b4, WinXP Pro SP3, Toshiba M70, 1.8GHz 2GB RAM 100GB HD. Focusrite Saffire 6 USB, Ketron SD2. BiaB Wiki
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Quote:
Perhaps to add on to the previous comment about Comic Sans.
That's pretty funny. I never thought a font could cause offense. However, since it can be changed, I don't see it as a valid critisism of BiaB.
BTW, I said Comic Sans was the default font for BiaB but I could be wrong. I may have selected it long ago and BiaB reads my previous selection when I upgrade. If this is the case I apologize to PGMusic for the incorrect statement and accept that my taste in fonts is pitiful. hahaha
BiaB 2013 b366, RB 2013 b4, WinXP Pro SP3, Toshiba M70, 1.8GHz 2GB RAM 100GB HD. Focusrite Saffire 6 USB, Ketron SD2. BiaB Wiki
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John, those points are more to do with functionality than whether the GUI looks 'modern' or not. The menu system does seem to be part of the appearance issue and I wouldn't be against a careful redisign there. Also your mention of the color schemes led me to check out the Opt|Prefs|Colors settings. As mentioned above, there are some nice pre-defined schemes and there is the ablility to create your own (albeit with some effort as you mention).
BiaB 2013 b366, RB 2013 b4, WinXP Pro SP3, Toshiba M70, 1.8GHz 2GB RAM 100GB HD. Focusrite Saffire 6 USB, Ketron SD2. BiaB Wiki
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Pwarren,
Thanks for your initial posting and getting a lot of insightful replies.
Always good to get all these different opinions out there for PG to consider.
Also helped bring to light the "color schemes options" already available, but unknown to many (including myself).
As an artist by profession I know how subjective and personal, appearances can be and really enjoy hearing and seeing what others think and appreciate.
I totally agree that functionality , the musical meat and potatoes, should be the prime goal and with each new release PG gets a little closer to perfection.
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With my DAW of choice, they provide a color scheme edit and save option, and users would post their creations on the unofficial support forum for the DAW software. Some even were chosen to be included in upcoming releases of the software. I don't have alot of time for these things, but I found one particular user-contributed scheme that really resonated with me and just used that one.
It is pretty amazing how a color scheme can change one's view of the software. Part of the whole 'perceived quality' aspect of a product.
-Scott
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Quote:
Thanks for your initial posting and getting a lot of insightful replies.
Always good to get all these different opinions out there for PG to consider.
You're welcome. I, too, want to get the ideas in front of PGMusic. While I don't subscribe to the 'needs a total redesign' school I think the GUI could stand a few tweaks.
Quote:
Also helped bring to light the "color schemes options" already available, but unknown to many (including myself).
And me. I may very well change my color scheme now I know the option is there.
Quote:
As an artist by profession I know how subjective and personal, appearances can be
Yep. That's why I asked for a definition of 'modern'. I don't think there is such a thing because it IS subjective. However, trying to put ones definition of 'modern' into words does serve to highlight what the perceptions are. I'll try to summarize my thoughts and observations into a separate post later.
Quote:
I totally agree that functionality , the musical meat and potatoes, should be the prime goal and with each new release PG gets a little closer to perfection.
This may be the most important statement here. When long time users, such as myself, get a little testy about the 'complete redesign' calls it's because of the risk that form will be placed over function. As long as the band (BiaB) is always ready to jam with me on bass I don't care whether they're well dressed. hahaha
BiaB 2013 b366, RB 2013 b4, WinXP Pro SP3, Toshiba M70, 1.8GHz 2GB RAM 100GB HD. Focusrite Saffire 6 USB, Ketron SD2. BiaB Wiki
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With my DAW of choice, they provide a color scheme edit and save option, and users would post their creations on the unofficial support forum for the DAW software. Some even were chosen to be included in upcoming releases of the software.
I'm not totally sure but it does look like users have contributed color schemes to BiaB as well. Look under Prefs|Color. There are schemes with names such as Allanah (hope I got the spelling right) that seem to be forum members. How we would submit our schemes I don't know...
BiaB 2013 b366, RB 2013 b4, WinXP Pro SP3, Toshiba M70, 1.8GHz 2GB RAM 100GB HD. Focusrite Saffire 6 USB, Ketron SD2. BiaB Wiki
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I think they need an interior designer. On the other hand it's almost old enough to be acceptable as having a retro look. Think '60's diner! I bet if I poll users there are not many who spend hours trying to get an intro to fever...they just move on and play something else. I spend hours doing that. I almost never record, I don't use the tuning feature, I don't mess with melodies etc. So hide all of that under cascading pull down menus and I'm ok, I want to change styles, # of verses, speed, etc.
And transpose...
And play and play and play.
I don't need star trek. Black and Silver, yup all the kids loved the kings and the raiders for that. Sold a lot of hats and t-shirts.
I can see it now, the Ferrari version with Red and Yellow, the Manchester United Version, the Steeler's version. I think visual change is in order. It's like I tell the class 1/2 through the week, 'sorry the lights are too bright we will finish using just 1/2 of them. Based on an old work experiment that says any change is perceived as a good thing.
Maybe make the mixer applet with a play stop rewind record button, a style changer and song changer button, and make it silver or gold, or a piano motif and then hide everything else.
A massage feature would be nice, the bass does your feet etc...but I digress or digest...
The Hawthorn effect. Some people expect change. Usually you just get less for more. Like my ice cream which used to be heavy but now is full of mostly air, no longer a brick. And the size went down, the price went up, and there is less of it, and the plastic around it requires tools to open.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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Quote:
4) BIAB actually has different color schemes (since that was mentioned above). If you go to "Opt, Prefs" and select the color button, you can define your own colors. However, the help system doesn't explain what each element represents, so it's kind of hit or miss. This was added a bunch of versions back, and you will see some of the pre-defined schemes there that beta testers came up with.
Right, I'm aware of that but all that does is change basic 'flat' colors, no texture, no highlights. I'm not a graphics designer so I'm probably using the wrong terms I'm sure but look at other apps including the Ozone pic Rharv posted. See the highlights on the outer left and top? That gives the impression it's a real physical piece of equipment. I have several apps where the knobs look like they have chrome inserts with those little camera flash highlights, others like the B4 Hammond organ have very good woodgrain and texture on the black keys and stuff like that. Biab is just blah, straight colors, that's it.
Now having said that I agree the functionality is what's important and after all these years using it I really don't care but as a long time marketing guy it's the sizzle, the appearance that sells. If that wasn't true people would not be using various forms of makeup, jewelry, chothing for what, thousands of years?
Bob
Biab/RB latest build, Win 11 Pro, Ryzen 5 5600 G, 512 Gig SSD, 16 Gigs Ram, Steinberg UR22 MkII, Roland Sonic Cell, Kurzweil PC3, Hammond SK1, Korg PA3XPro, Garritan JABB, Hypercanvas, Sampletank 3, more.
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If you've reviewed our Support page, you've probably noticed the Videos page, which separates our Band-in-a-Box® tutorial videos by category: Overview, VST DAW Plugin, Setup, Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced, and there's even an Archive category to go down memory lane... (You'll also find these videos on our YouTube Channel.)
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