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Houston we have a problem!
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"The PCI card mux's the outs into a firewire cable that goes to the MOTU and demux's to feed 8 outs. (So it is not 8 physical cables from the computer to the MOTUs."
OK, so you said that you were not using USB, that it was just PCI cards...and now there is a Firewire send involved? Did I miss this bit of info somewhere along the line?
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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Quote:
"The PCI card mux's the outs into a firewire cable that goes to the MOTU and demux's to feed 8 outs. (So it is not 8 physical cables from the computer to the MOTUs."
OK, so you said that you were not using USB, that it was just PCI cards...and now there is a Firewire send involved? Did I miss this bit of info somewhere along the line?
Okay, not PCI CARDS. PCI CARD. One card. One single card.
The PCI card sends multiplexed data to the MOTUs with 1 (but up to 4) firewire cable and demux's back to 8 channels at the MOTU box, from where you have 8 outs to feed the mixer. The PCI card has 4 firewire outputs, and RB sees all of them, clearly defined as 424-1, 424-2, 424-3, 424-4 in the output drivers section. The card, made by MOTU, is designed to feed four of the 2408 rack mount units, which this very card did with both of these MOTUs (and 2 more) at a studio in LA. And I did a video chat with the guy I bought the stuff from and saw it work as he was teaching me a few things.
Now, John Silvertones hit on something quite provocative when he mentioned MME/WDM and referred to "4 PAIRS OF OUTS." I never looked at it that way. 4 pairs, obviously 4x2 being 8.... when I try to send to that 9th out there is no mo mojo to be sent.
As much as I whine about this kind of stuff, I LOVE IT!!! Discovering, learning, experimenting, deducing during troubleshooting, expanding my knowledge base and idea pool.....
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Haven't heard a thing back from PG on this. Unusual.
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One note about the PCI card Firewire outputs - they might not be firewire spec in terms of data transfer, but only in functional form. This is the way that RME cards work between either PCI or other interface cards of theirs. The Firewire cable and interconnects are only using the form factor, not in terms of the actual data transfers. I think that's how the MOTU PCI card works, but I'm not entirely sure.
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It's RB. If you read the last few posts. It happens to me with over 4 pairs on my system, it happens to Eddie on his system & it happens to rharv on his system. Identical issue totally different sound devices.
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Can you guys who have tested this send me a PM on what hardware you used? Up until the two of you also tested the multiple out everybody blamed my hardware. And I mean everybody. It was my hardware, I set it up wrong, I don't know what I am doing, I am an idiot, etc.... now 2 more users tested multiple outs exceeding 8 outs and had the same problem, it tends to hold a little more water, particularly because I doubt you have same exact hardware.
I am going to email Dr Gannon once I have more info.
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i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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Eddie,
If you re-read my posts in this thread, all along I have been suggesting mixing in the single box but using a hardware control surface. I still stick to this as the least trouble free option. You can even do this with a crappy motherboard based soundcard and it will have less noise issues than what you will introduce through the out to mixer to a different computer system you are building.
However, I realize that doesn't involve as much sleuthing and soldering and wiring that this will involve which might ruin some of the fun.
-Scott
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Quote:
Eddie,
If you re-read my posts in this thread, all along I have been suggesting mixing in the single box but using a hardware control surface. I still stick to this as the least trouble free option. You can even do this with a crappy motherboard based soundcard and it will have less noise issues than what you will introduce through the out to mixer to a different computer system you are building.
However, I realize that doesn't involve as much sleuthing and soldering and wiring that this will involve which might ruin some of the fun.
-Scott
OK Scott,
I'm absolutely serious. If you have the funds send me a PM and I'll give you my address. Send me the $$$$$$ to buy a control surface and I'll never mention it again.
Got to try!
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John, I'm absolutely serious - I don't have the funds to give away control surfaces. However you can get into this for as little as $210. See here: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BCF2000There's 8 sliders to keep your fingers busy during mixing. If you don't like Behringer, spend another $100 for much more capability with this Novation unit: http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/SLmk2zero/Keepin' it in the box, but making the fingers happy with faders and knobs...... With most DAW software, you should be able to map the sliders to volume automation on individual tracks. With the Behringer unit, the faders are motorized, so as you play back a mix, you can watch the live action on the faders for entertainment purposes. -Scott Actually on the really cheap is the Korg Nano Control which has 8 faders and 8 knobs and transport controls, for $59! http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/nanoKON2bkSeveral of the M-Audio controller keyboards that are under $500 also have assignable sliders. I got my M-Audio Oxygen 61 for just over $100 at Audio-Midi a few years ago. It's got assignable faders, though I've never bothered to use them with my DAW software. They aren't real smooth operation like a mixer slider.
Last edited by rockstar_not; 01/10/12 10:02 AM.
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Quote:
There's 8 sliders to keep your fingers busy during mixing.
Where do I send outputs 9 thru 16?
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Irregardless of what is the best way to do things the bottom line is that RB has an issue. It should be able to access more then 4 pairs of outputs with WDM drivers without throwing up access violations.This is my real interest at this point. To help PG decipher this.
I've emailed Peter, Andrew & Rob so at this point until they call on me for more help I have no interest in trying to convince Eddie how to do things one way when he has his mind set on another.
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I have no interest in trying to convince Eddie how to do things one way when he has his mind set on another.
I read this with a smile while adding the implied "Because it is obvious at this point that his head is harder than cement and we will not change him anyway...."
Spot on, John. Everybody, good intentions understood and appreciated, is missing the bottom line.
I don't WANT alternatives. I am a hacker. Hackers live to push things beyond accepted norms and make hardware do what it has never been able to do. REAL hackers do not do damage. REAL hackers explore and push limits.
And the most recent suggestion, once again, stops at 8 tracks.
Everyone please stop thinking about audio recorded tracks and start thinking about physical outs. I want 16 recorded tracks to go through the 16 outs on my 2x8 MOTU hardware, into my 16 channel Mackie mixer, and out to my speakers. That is the goal. Anything else is failure to me. (See: I am a hacker.)
I seriously (there's the phrase again!) don't care about "control surfaces". I want to make Real Band do what I stated above. 16 recorded tracks flowing through 16 discreet outs into my mixer.
So many comments come back to "and get back to the business of making music". I am not in the business of making music. Diane Warren is in the business of making music. Taylor Swift is in the business of making music. Brad Paisley, Keith Urban, Brent Carter.... I am in the business of keeping a network at a major company running. My hobby is music. I don't gig, I don't have any interest at all in moving all my gear down a flight of stairs, packing it (somehow) into a Kia Rio, setting up, playing for people who likely won't understand, and then moving it all back up the flight of stairs and setting it all back up. I don't have the financial luxury of "home gear" and "road gear". I just want to write songs FOR ME, and write them on a system I know how to use that doesn't require a 3rd trip through college.
Please refocus on the goal here. 16 tracks, running through 16 discreet outs, into a 16 channel mixer. All analog. I don't even use MIDI anymore. There is no need for it. If I want to layer, I clone the track and play the same thing on a different patch and record it. When I played live, my rig was a marvel - MID everywhere. MIDI patch bay controlled by a keypad.... That was 18 years ago. Now I just want this to do what I want this to do. And now I have 2 other people who have exposed this deficiency, so it may now get more attention and get resolved.
To pull a line from one fo my songs... "And I'll be dying to tell you 'I told you so'!"
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Not implied or otherwise. I also want more then the 4 pairs. For me it's for live.16 channel mixer with stereo outs from my harmonnizer in 2 channels, bass out from Stealth interface running AT3 in another channel. 8 outs from my A2ZSNB to 8 channels. I have the gear. I've had it for a long time. I'm NOT going to buy new stuff to overcome an issue. PG is aware of it and will fix it. That I am confident. It's been identified by 3 of us with different systems. It's out of all of our hands.
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Quote:
Quote:
There's 8 sliders to keep your fingers busy during mixing.
Where do I send outputs 9 thru 16?
You don't send outs anywhere - you keep them inside the DAW software for the whole thing.
Look, you can reliably fade 8 or so channels at once unless you have multiple persons on deck. If you were going there - that is, fade over 8 tracks at once, then my suggestion doesn't work.
The way this works, Eddie, is you simply use the control surface to lay out what the volume level of each track will be for the song inside your DAW software. There's no 'sending' at all.
This is how most of the mixing that your friend with the ProTools rig is doing it, unless he sends every channel out for outboard processing (highly unlikely), he's mixing in the box - the computer that is.
He's not recording to a second computer or even a second program. He's putting a stereo mix down as another track right inside the same project.
If you want to send out some tracks to outboard processing, it's still possible, and they would need to return back into the interface and get recorded to new tracks. This is still possible with your MOTU gear, just not both modules unless you really need to send 16 tracks out to 16 different processors. If you can live with 8 outs and ins, then the control surface should work a treat (If PG software can make use of the control surface communications info).
But I submit that you will have better results mixing entirely inside the computer.
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Oops, several posts between when I started to reply and when I hit send.
I thought that your question Eddie, opened up the discussion again. I see that it hasn't.
The interesting thing is that I'm guessing this has always been an issue but since so few people have any interest to physically fade 16 channels simultaneously, it's never been an issue that has raised it's head.
I still get confused that your goal was to mimic your buddy's pro-tools rig and capability, but with other software and hardware. Sorry if I missed the point that now it's down to only using the MOTU units to allow 16 physical channels of fade.
Just trying to help.
Best wishes. I really shouldn't look in this thread any longer.
-Scott
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Quote:
This is how most of the mixing that your friend with the ProTools rig is doing it, unless he sends every channel out for outboard processing (highly unlikely), he's mixing in the box - the computer that is.
He's not recording to a second computer or even a second program. He's putting a stereo mix down as another track right inside the same project.
Incorrect Scott, very likely. He runs Protools on his G5, playing back what he recorded live, and sending it out through 3 MOTUs into a 28 channel mixer, mixing it there and sending it to a second computer into something much like Abobe Audition and "printing" it there. He has an analog 28 channel Soundcrafter mixer. Nobody I know can afford a digital board that costs what "Studio B at EMI" can afford. I can barely keep my mortgage paid much less blow a month's pay on a mixing board to sit in an attic in Akron Ohio. I do not have a pro level studio.
Your use of the term "outboard processing" makes me wonder if we mean the same thing. Yes, there are effects (processors) bussed through the mixer, but this is essentially mixing levels, just levels, and recording one left an one right to burn to a CD.
And that's what I want to do. 16 channels down to 2 on my Mackie mixer. Old school mixing like I did 40 years ago, not because I am a Luddite, but because I already know how to do that pretty well and don't have months to learn digital technology at age 60.
The base questions remain the same. Is this a bug in RB? If anyone wants to continue to answer "no", then explain why this method, and equipment, works with Sonar and Protools. Saying RB has a bug is not putting RB down. It means that now 3 of us have found something in the coding that needs to be fixed. When people find a bug in any other software they are called beta testers. In other threads I have been called many things because I dared tread on Real Band.
What Sonar and Protools don't do is generate music. That is all I really care about, that RB can play music better than I can. If I have to, I will write in RB, export to WAV files, import those WAV files into Sonar, and be on my way, but believe me, I WILL make these MOTUs work with RB somehow. I'm a hacker. That's what hackers do.
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I used a Delta 1010lt
8 outs and ins was fine. 10 ins recorded fine. As soon as I enable the 10th out and hit play I get access violations.. as mentioned previously I didn't listen to the recorded tracks play back, but they 'appeared' fine. Each wrote on its own designated track, none looked skewed in the waveforms..
I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
Make your sound your own!
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