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Pat,
You wrote the most and you have good points. I'm faster on the tongue then I should be so sometimes my points are not taken the way I intended.
1. If you are writing music and the most important thing for you is to get the message out that you're trying to send via the lyrics, then by all means do what it takes. I wonder though what it would have been like if pitch correction had been available to one of the greatest poets going? Bob Dylan of course. Couldn't carry a tune in a bushel basket. I think he got the message out though. I know we're not in the 60s anymore.
2. Pros use it. Sure they do however they can sing.Have worked hard at it.Not productive if Lady Gaga has just recorded a track in NY and has flown to London and all of a sudden the producer hears a slight clam in the vocal track & has to fly her back to sing a small part. Use whatever tool you have in this case.
3. Using RTs & RDs because you can't play those instruments is not the same ,to me, as manipulating your voice to sing on key & saying it's you.
4. Bottom line is I'm just trying to say is work on it before giving in to the tools. If you just can't get it well use it as opposed to not singing at all.
Remember the old days of recording "we'll fix it in the mix". I disliked that phrase also. Just me.
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John, I don't disagree with any of your points. You are a very smart man and I respect your opinion across the board.
I'm only trying to find a niche where my meager abilities don't force me to the sidelines where I sit out the game known as my life.
Its my first inclination and I fight very hard to overcome it.
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Quote:
John, I don't disagree with any of your points. You are a very smart man and I respect your opinion across the board.
I'm only trying to find a niche where my meager abilities don't force me to the sidelines where I sit out the game known as my life.
Its my first inclination and I fight very hard to overcome it.
Absolutely no sidelines Pat. I know more then anyone here were we're both coming from on that one. We all need to do what it takes. I suppose if I really reflected on this, and I have these last few minutes, what's the difference between a guy who wants to sing and has to use some pitch correction and a bass player (me) who has to use RTs. None really when you think of it. I believe a lot of us here just don't want to be part of a band for whatever reason so we use RB,BIAB, pitch correction you name it, to let us still be in the game but on our own terms.
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I’m going to add my two cents on this discussion. Not directed at anyone just how I feel. I think the perfection movement has sucked the life right out many performances especially coupled with the loudness wars. Pitch correction - at least at the level we’re talking about here as opposed to the major studio units which are beyond most of our budgets - does color the sound and change the “character” of the voice - it’s not transparent. If you’re slightly flat or sharp and you’re tuning yourself to still be slightly flat or sharp then technically imo if you’re not dead on pitch you are still flat or sharp. These programs are not perfect - you correct thinking it’s right and you’re off. Most musicians performances are not pitch perfect either. So here’s your perfect vocal now clashing with any off notes from another instrument. I’m just trying to make a point here that perfection like missiles is a slippery slope. As a singer, sometimes I’m dead on and sometimes I miss it. Sometimes I use pitch correction sometimes I let it go. If the feel of the song is there and you turn me off there’s nothing I can do about that unless I was just lazy in which case the feel would not be there. I think it’s a shame it’s come to this. And what I find really funny is that everyone today is a pitch expert. I was in a band years ago with two members who really did have perfect pitch and were fabulous musicians but neither of them were good lead singers. There was an artist not long ago who put a disclaimer on her album that “no pitch correction was used on this album” - it took guts and did not hurt her sales. So there is a growing backlash to this artificial perfection at all costs mentality. I saw a recent interview with a current multi platinum producer who feels when it’s too perfect it’s sterile and what he wants is human with a great feel. I agree with that. For me good singers come in two basic flavors pretty and unique. Both can move you emotionally. If someone is not one of these pitch correction is not going to make them one. If it makes anyone feel better to use it I say go ahead. Personally I won’t turn someone’s music off unless they sing something really grating - as long as they are making me feel something and the song doesn’t totally suck.  Josie
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Gee Josie you're like one of them there Dairy Joy Ice Creams. You have both flavors!
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I have Melodyne Editor 1.2.1 which I have used as a stand alone but am not a pro with it by any means.
It works very well but sometimes is difficult to avoid a Phase shift sound when moving things too far.
This is probably due to my inexperience with the program and may be totally avoidable.
It can also be used as a separate window plug-in in some DAWS and requires drop and drag I believe.
Have never used it that way however.
The newest version is 2.0 and features Rewire compatibility which lets you open up to 4 separate tracks in the stand alone version of Melodyne and when you click on them they appear on 4 separate tracks in your Daw for real time manipulation.
That seems very cool.
Checked with PG and BIAB/RB currently does not support Rewire.
A good one for the wishlist.
Even so I will probably upgrade soon, as there are a few new time adjustment features which may help me (and I'm a sucker for an upgrade, just ask PG!)
But bottom line on vocals is just keep working at it, you'll surprise yourself.
Carkins
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Bob Dylan .. Robert Smith .. Lou Reed .. even Jon Anderson
none of them sang with 'perfect' pitch, but they performed in such a way that if you tuned them you would most likely wreck the track.
Other (more recent) artists that have gone platinum shouldn't be heard without tuning efforts.
Let the track (and your ears) decide.
I've used a bunch of different tuning softwares. The included TCHelicon can be used for correction if done correctly (using a MIDI track for tuning) but the real question is what kind is needed and how much? The answer is in the results.
Make your sound your own!
.. I do not work here, but the benefits are still awesome
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I have a friend with more $$$ than talent, and really who cares? He is having fun, and I get to try out a ton of stuff I never could have before!  Nectar is one heck of a plugin, and feature for feature trashes all the others, period....but there is ONE thing I don't like about it... It is really heavy handed, there is no subtlety to it, it is correcting or not, it is effecting or not, we never could get a "just right" setting out of it for either his or his wife's voice. For that Auto Tune was the clear winner. This was in Cubase 6 BTW..he didn't like their pitch correction, tho I thought it was fine and on par with Auto Tune.  And IMHO, Sundance has the most mature & balanced response in the whole thread.....good job! 
i5 3.20GHz, 32gb RAM, 1tb SSD OS, 12tb HDD, 4gb gForce vid card, 32" monitor, Audient id44, Win10 x64, BiaB/RB 2023, Reaper 6,IK Multimedia Total Studio 3.5 MAX, Waves 10
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there is a classic recurring dream in which a person finds himself on stage, unprepared in front of an audience of critics. I guess it is a common dream because we all want to avoid public humiliation.
As we mature, we all learn to cope with the uncertainty of risk in different ways... but most of them have to do with making sure we are prepared. Preparation gives us confidence, and confidence enables us to perform.
Some people acquire confidence through good looks. Others are confident of their various abilities. Some people have confidence because of money or connections.
And some just don't have any confidence at all.
I've noticed that people tend to argue on behalf of whatever strategy gives THEM confidence. In my case, most of those things are not available. I can't acquire the confidence that comes from good looks, money, talent or connections.
My strategy has been to visualize where I want to end up, decide what resources are needed to get there, take stock of which resources I already have... and then I buy off-the-shelf solutions to get the rest
Then, when I have what it takes to succeed, I have the confidence to move forward.
If this was not a workable plan, the vast majority of humans would be stuck in the swamp of mediocrity, unable to accomplish anything.
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Quote:
I think the perfection movement has sucked the life right out of many performances
I would agree completely if you had said that the perfection movement has sucked the life out of musicianship... because the tools that lead to perfection encourage people to be less concerned about technical skill.
But you used the word PERFORMANCE, and that is a different thing.
A PERFORMANCE is the sum of many things, and the cumulative effect of those things working together is what makes a performance good or bad.
A performance can include any or all of the following:
1) the quality of the music (is it in tune? Is it tight? is it exciting?)
2) choreography
3) light show
4) the vocals (are they in tune? are the lyrics meaningful? is the singer's demeanor engaging?)
5) crowd interaction (is the audience treated like a friend or an annoyance)
6) equipment (is it enough to fill the hall? too much? did it break down in the middle of a song?)
People judge a performance by the cumulative execution of all the parts. I don't think the average patron cares if the singer uses electronics to sound better... most don't even know that such devices exist... but they ALL know what a bad note sounds like, and if they hear one, their opinion about the performance drops a notch.
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Well, the thing is about the show. Think about it. I'm hoping to find talent to use my gear. I can play fine, but there is only one hotel with a piano going, and he doesn't call very much. Actually, I'm more like the repellent, kids who run around a cause problems won't hang out where someone is playing "I get a Kick outta you". And his hotel has a bar, in an Atrium with a pool, a huge place. The kids can hang out around the bar, which is in a very well travelled area, but the idea is to make them leave. Me! (especially if hockey team kids and some older customers are both in the joint.
At the end of the day, I can't talk in the morning, and in the afternoon I can just about get 2 paragraphs, and then my voice is totally toast. Just a big bass croak.
So, I'm looking for the next big hit. Use my Bose, my keys, my lights, and show me your talent.
The new normal eh?
As far as stuff I'm trying to do, sing one line a day and stick it together later.
I'm wondering about an HD projector, screen at the back, short throw, and sync it with the music.
BTW, is not pitch correction part of the TC Helicon thing comes with B in a square container? Use the midi notes to do it? I'm sure it's there, I messed with it.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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I guess what I'm trying to say is that I agree with the general statements made by everybody. Music is too big and complex to be restricted by one man's opinion. I prefer listening to people who can actually sing. But I'm talking about what I can do, not what others can do.
I don't advocate that people should stop learning how to play instruments or cultivate their singing ability. In fact I think the whole world benefits when people develop their talents.
But music is a progressive thing. Those who would wait until they can do everything proficiently will never have confidence to do anything. My own state of progress requires crutches in order to walk with confidence. I am truly glad that's not true of everyone.
My confidence is not in myself, but in the music. All I need to do is deliver the music, and I'm confident that the music will do what music does. The power to please an audience is in the music, not in me.
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Pat, I always find your pov interesting whether or not we agree on every little thing. BTW, for the record by "pretty and unique" I'm speaking of voice quality not looks....just to be perfectly clear in case I wasn't. LOL! Right now I'm not really up for any debate on the meaning of performance as I just cleaned up a huge mess from accidentally bumping the wastebasket which fell over causing a large pickle jar 3/4 full of pickle juice to propell itself and come rolling out breaking on the floor sending stinky sticky pickle juice all over..... And of course this could've been much less messy had someone emptied said jar before placing it in the garbage. LOL! Have a great night Pat. You're cool. Josie
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Pat,
You've definitely got the right idea on approaching home recording.
I wish I'd adopted that approach YEARS ago. There would have been tons of songs recorded instead of lyric sheets and memories of melodies I've written.
Don't let anyone dissuade you from using the tools available to you. And don't wait until you understand ALL those tools to lay down tracks.
Too bad I didn't follow my own advice to you.
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Quote:
And IMHO, Sundance has the most mature & balanced response in the whole thread.....good job!
yep, Josie usually manages to offer a rational summary of just about any discussion
Quote:
BTW, for the record by "pretty and unique" I'm speaking of voice quality not looks....just to be perfectly clear in case I wasn't. LOL!
Josie, given my followup comments about where confidence comes from, I'd have to agree that It looks as though I interpreted the "pretty and unique" part of your post to mean physically pretty... but I didn't read it that way. I try to judge peoples comments by what I know about them, and it would be out of character for you to say something like that. However, I DID consider that your appearance probably is a source of confidence, whether you would say so or not.
Quote:
Right now I'm not really up for any debate on the meaning of performance as I just cleaned up a huge mess from accidentally bumping the wastebasket which fell over causing a large pickle jar 3/4 full of pickle juice to propell itself and come rolling out breaking on the floor sending stinky sticky pickle juice all over..... And of course this could've been much less messy had someone emptied said jar before placing it in the garbage. LOL!
Please accept my apology if I turned this into a debate... that was not my intent. I hate that you had to clean up a physical mess after spending time unravelling this ideological mess. (Sticky pickle juice has to be about the worst thing to spill.).
Quote:
I wish I'd adopted that approach YEARS ago. There would have been tons of songs recorded instead of lyric sheets and memories of melodies I've written.
Don't let anyone dissuade you from using the tools available to you. And don't wait until you understand ALL those tools to lay down tracks.
Bob, you've already accomplished far more than I ever will.
And for the record, I'm still in the stage of accumulating confidence. I don't have a lot to show for it yet. Perhaps if I still care about any of this after my wife dies later this year, I may finally start to snap the legos together. Until then, I don't want to get occupied with anything that takes me away from her.
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As a song writer, as opposed to an accomplished musician or performer, I look at using pitch correction as a way to "dress up" a song that's about to go on a first date with the audience.
On a first date you want to look and sound your best,hoping to impress your date enough to make her want to get to know you better and go on a second.
Beneath all the fancy dressing however, it's still you and what you really have to say which will determine how or if the relationship will progress.
So do your best, run a comb through your hair, if you have any, and get out there and enjoy the dance.
Carkins
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good analogy Carkins. I liked that. IF I HAVE ANY-O-METER 0__\____________100
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Quote:
Right now I'm not really up for any debate on the meaning of performance as I just cleaned up a huge mess from accidentally bumping the wastebasket which fell over causing a large pickle jar 3/4 full of pickle juice to propell itself and come rolling out breaking on the floor sending stinky sticky pickle juice all over..... And of course this could've been much less messy had someone emptied said jar before placing it in the garbage. LOL!
ah perfect pickle in waltz tine
oh and laundry can be dangerous!! thanks for the heads up was just about to do mine
i'll just get some more clothes or call Duds 'N Suds
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Last edited by pghboemike; 01/16/12 07:48 AM.
Lenovo YOGA 900 Window s 10 Home 64bit 16GB RAM\2018 13” MacBook Air casio wk7500 presonus audiobox i2 usb interface
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biab & realband 2023 everything pk both with Current builds
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...at least you didn't spill your beer. The worst is the lights come on, you can't buy a beer, but the one you ordered to drink after the show while you are packing up, falls off the speaker and the glass breaks. The staff are fleeing the club, the booze is locked up, and the owner is waiting for you to put your stuff in the van so he can go home. The last solitary beer, laying on the dirty floor, foaming, the golden liquid seeping into cracks as your parched mouth...
never mind, my mind is wandering again.
Remember when cars were so big 3 guys could sit in the trunk, legs dangling like spaghetti, quaffing beers in the sun? Now you can't put your groceries in there, you need to use the back seat. The mafia have to borrow the van from the butcher shop...lack of trunk space.
I can relate to 'accidents'. I drop everything, even the $100 New Years prime rib roast, which hit the floor like the hundred other things. I now have slippers with hard bottoms so I can flee the dang kitchen. But pickle juice, man that has so much sugar in it you might as well drop corn syrup on the floor.
The best thing to drop is the odd tied note. Gives breathing room.
John Conley
Musica est vita
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I say this with a smile . . . . I can't see why pitch correcting - call it "smoothing" rather - should be a moral issue, or anybody's business but my own. If I use it, it doesn't invalidate a good song if I've written one - it enhances the production. Paying as much attention to your voice as to your backing tracks only makes sense. Is fixing a flat note or two any less moral than a single guy showing up to do a gig with a five piece combo on a computer? And these softwares will also correct a bad note in an instrumental solo. Your option is always to re-record and put as much time into it as you want. But boy it's nice to have that fall back position. It's also a great idea to use the software to check your vocal intonation before a final mix. If you're going to pitch songs, the voice had at least better be in tune. Melodyne or the others won't put dynamics in your vocal track - you'll have to work on that - but it will make sure that those emotional moments are in tune. Now coming from a guy whose hearing has a D note sound as a D in one ear and Eb in the other, I love the software for being able to check the accuracy of my vocal tracks. I sure don't see using Melodyne, or any of them, as a moral issue. Go For It - Ian
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Band-in-a-Box User Video Tutorials!
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