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Hi All
Just bought the VL3D and it seems like a handy piece of equipment. Just one question. I am using it at home for home recording. When I play my guitar and sing thru the VL3D onto my hard disk recorder and play it back I can hear the guitar on the vocal track. The unintended recording of the guitar is also effected by the harmony function and even tho its very soft, I would like to be able to record a clean vocal track. Is it possible to record the guitar on my hard drive and then play that track back thru the VL3D and have the VL3D use that input to do vocal correction and harmony. Or does the unit only work using the guitar signal directly?
Thanks
Mick
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Quote:
What i want to know is, can you set a midi track to control the units where the harmonies kick in and out without having to click the foot switch?
yes or no, depending on the unit's capabilities. Most of the TC Helicon and Digitech rack units are totally MIDI controllable, (not sure how they handled the new versions that are like foot pedals...)
I have a Digitech Vocalist Workstation SX and a TC Helicon Voiceworks. I like the audio results of the TC Helicon better, but I think the MIDI implementation of the Digitech is much easier. (at least in Sonar it is... the digitech can be programmed from virtual instrument menus, whereas the TCHelicon requires me to manually enter parameters to the continuous controller entries, which is inconvenient and non-intuitive)
One recurring problem with all of these units is that they tend to pick up extraneous noise and then it gets into the mix. Here are some tricks to minimize that problem:
1) For live performance, use a noise gate or volume pedal to turn the MIC volume down except when you are singing directly into it.
2) I was told that the Shure SM58 Beta is a good mic for use with vocal processors because it does a better job than many other mics at filtering out miscellaneous noise (I know that's a very non-technical description... but I started with a different Shure and was ready to abandon vocal processors altogether, and when I got the SM58beta I started having better results. YMMV)
3) for home recording, I get best results if I sing while listening to the backing tracks through headphones, so the background does not get captured by the mic. I haven't had good luck trying to play guitar and sing at the same time while recording.
4) You can also sing directly into the recorder then re-route the recorded vocals through the vocal processor, and re-record the processed output. That approach lets you start with a dry track and experiment with it until you like the results
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Quote:
yes i understand how the boxes work, but the rack mount versions also realte to Midi signal, and i wonder if a off/on comand could be send along with the notes to harmonize to and make it easy to have hanmonies kickin without having to step on the switch. This would be so cool and seemless, and no one would ever see you click the switch. Plus one less thing to have as a distraction while playing.
On both of my processors (TC Helicon Voiceworks and Digitech Vocalist workstation EX) you can do ANYTHING with MIDI. Some examples:
you can change patches, key , number of harmonies, type of harmony, harmony volume, harmony off or on, pitch correction off or on, type of pitch correction, amount of pitch correction... at any point on the sequence by inserting CC commands in the piano roll at the appropriate place for the change
you can turn effects off and on or change the amount of vocal reverb on each backup harmony individually.... in fact you can control every parameter of each "backup singer"... on the fly
In fact every single thing you can change with a knob or menu can also be changed programmatically and seamlessly via MIDI continuous controllers, so you program it once then never have to step on a stomp box again
I like this feature so much, I only buy computer devices that are totally MIDI controllable. Even my stomp box ( a digitech RP2000 ) is totally driven from the midi file. I never have to worry about changing patches or which amp simulator or how much distortion, or how much volume I need for a solo... once it's nailed in the studio, it becomes part of the sequence... which, I suppose, is why these programs are called SEQUENCERS... they provide the methods to program the sequence of events for every aspect of a performance
Last edited by Pat Marr; 12/28/09 07:14 AM.
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Quote:
When I play my guitar and sing thru the VL3D onto my hard disk recorder and play it back I can hear the guitar on the vocal track. The unintended recording of the guitar is also effected by the harmony function and even tho its very soft, I would like to be able to record a clean vocal track. Is it possible to record the guitar on my hard drive and then play that track back thru the VL3D and have the VL3D use that input to do vocal correction and harmony. Or does the unit only work using the guitar signal directly?
Thanks
Mick
Hi Mick. I feel your pain. The way you take the guitar track out of the vocal is to turn the guitar input to off. Roll the knob to off is what I meant. The downside is you don't hear your guitar. However, the fix for that is to record your guitar rhythm, if needed, into RB. Then roll the knob back and just strum for the needed chords. You won't hear it but DigiTech will and will make the harmonies accordingly.
Another idea I have, but haven't tried yet, is to record the rhythm onto a track in RB/PTW and output just that track to the pedal where your guitar would plug in. (BTW this will require two soundcards, or a multi-port soundcard) In that way you can just sing and, when the harmony is needed simply step on the switch to turn the needed harmony on. The track playing back to the DigiTech will, most likely, activate the harmonies to play the right notes. In this way you won't make a mistake while playing and singing at the same time. When you're recording you want the best quality in work and balance possible. So strumming a guitar and singing, tho', not difficult, can still make you boggle a bit. In this way you can simply turn on and off harmony where needed with the foot switch.
Just a thought.
Russ Anyday above ground is a good day Computer is Hp Pavillion Vision 6 Ghz quad core AMD processor 8 Gig memory 1 TB hard drive 6 GB hard drive Windows 7 Premium Loose nut behind the keyboard 
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Quote:
I looked up the manual for the Digitech vocalist VL3D, and it allow midi CC comands, and support harmony on/off, patch change, and many more that could be very useful live with RB as a midi track with CC commands could be included in a song to make appropriate program changes during a song. Having the harmony come in and even chage at specific points could be very powerful.
Hi Rob. The purpose of the midi control is to control the harmony only. To my knowledge, at least, in the products I can afford, midi doesn't have any auto start/stop to it. The only way you can do that is to have midi tracks with the harmonies set on separate tracks. But I don't know if that will activate the harmonies. I think you still have to activate them with a foot switch in order to turn them on. When on and there is no midi or guitar coming thru the harmonizers, then the harmonies will play off key. They have to be turned on and off manually some how. The way these midi controlled harmonizers work is that they read the midi chords and come up with an algorithm that lets them create harmony sounds. Sometimes the notes are off key or not proper when midi controlled. Even my guitar controlled pedal will cough up a sour note every once in awhile. Also, there is a tiny bit of lag in the harmony tracks. When used live there's no way to control that. When recording, I can use voodoo to sync 'em up. But it's not noticable when performed live like it is when recorded.
Danny and I both own the DigiTech Vocalist 4's. They only work with guitar signal going thru the pedal and when the foot switch is turned on by stepping on a pedal. I suppose that the very expensive TCHelicon ($3000 price range and up) can, thru the use of controllers, be ordered to engage and disengage when a midi signal is encountered. But the cheapo stage models, to my knowledge, don't sport that feature.
Hope that helps.
Russ Anyday above ground is a good day Computer is Hp Pavillion Vision 6 Ghz quad core AMD processor 8 Gig memory 1 TB hard drive 6 GB hard drive Windows 7 Premium Loose nut behind the keyboard
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Hi Russell
Thanks for the reply. Can you clarify what you mean by RB/PTW?
I have tried your second idea and seems to work ok. The other way I guess is to record a guitar track, then a vocal track while listening to the guitar on headphones. Then feed the vocal track into the unit and play the guitar again live into the unit so the unit adds harmony and pitch correction to the newly recorded vocal track. The other possibility is to use an electric guitar to feed into the unit while you listen with headphones to the acoustic guitar track. With the volume turned up on the electric guitar the unit can add harmonies, etc but the mic won't pick it up.
Necessity is the mother of invention as they say.
Mick
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Quote:
I looked up the manual for the Digitech vocalist VL3D, and it allow midi CC comands, and support harmony on/off, patch change, and many more that could be very useful live with RB as a midi track with CC commands could be included in a song to make appropriate program changes during a song. Having the harmony come in and even chage at specific points could be very powerful.
I just downloaded the PDF manual for this device, and it does indeed allow total control using continuous controllers, just like the more expensive vocal processors. Page 24 shows the CC commands to use for automated control of the various functions.
THis is a very cool device.. especially in conjunction with BIAB or RealBand, this would be very easy to use because BIAB is already able to send chords to a vocalist device...
To turn on the generation of vocalist chords in BIAB, go to:
OPTIONS->PREFERENCES ->OUTPUT CH ->OUTPUT CHORDS? [ ] <-(CHECK THIS BOX)
You also need to tell BIAB what channel your device expects to recieve MIDI data on
(Digitech Manual tells how to set this channel on page 21)
Once you have BIAB sending chords to the vocalist VL3D, your pitch and harmonies will automatically follow the same chords in your song.
So, for example, let's say you have done the procedure shown above, and BIAB is now sending your song's chords to the vocalist. Here's how you use CCs to turn features off and on:
1) I don't know how to do this in BIAB, so I would first save the project and open it in Real Band. The vocalist chords will still be part of the project
2) select the track that contains the MIDI chord data. Make sure the track's output is routed to the MIDI channel of the vocalist
3) go to piano roll mode
4) at the top right of the piano roll dialog is the CC list box... by default it says VELOCITY... click on it and when the list of options drops down, select CONTROL (for Continuous CONTROLlers)
5) a second dropdown list box wil appear so you can pick which controller you want to activate.
The list is populated with the standard CC list of controls, but the vocalist has its own CC definitions, and they are shown in the manual on page 24
So if you want to turn pitch correction ON, scroll down in the second listbox to CC #86
Pitch Correct On/Off 86 0 - 63 = Off, 64 - 127 = On
the bottom half of the piano roll is a grid with numbers from 0 to 127. This grid is where you enter parameters for Continuous controllers. Click on a number in this grid to assign a numeric parameter. In this case, any number less than 64 will turn Pitch correction OFF, and any number between 64 and 127 will turn it ON
Pretty easy, huh?
Likewise, to turn harmony on, select CC #88, then in the numeric grid at the bottom click any number higher than 64
Harmony On/Off 88 0 - 63 = Off, 64 - 127 = On
to select reverb type "HALL", select continuous controller 107, and click number 2 in the numberic grid
Reverb Type 107 0-Studio, 1-Room, 2-Hall
to set the reverb LEVEL, click continuous controller 108... in this case the numbers 0-127 set the reverb level... lower numbers mean less reverb, 127 means max reverb
Reverb Level 108 0-127
All the CCs in the list on page 24 use this same logic. I know this is a long post, but it should provide enough info to automate your new toy if you want to. Hope this helps!
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in case anybody skipped over the previous post because of its length...
it's a step-by step tutorial on how to use Continuous Controllers in Real Band to totally control a vocal processor (turning things off and on and changing parameters)
programmatically wherever you want the cahnges to take place in the song.
The same principles also work for other MIDIable devices, such as synths, many guitar effects, etc. Since most people on this forum are using sequncers to make music, and are often playing live with the sequenced songs, this information is VERY useful and empowering.
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I should probably have mentioned that when you insert a continuous controller command into a song, it will be inserted wherever you click in the numeric grid.
If you mess up and put a patch change in the wrong place, you can fix it in the event list (F2 opens the event list in Real Band)
But the easiest way to place the event at the right place is, after you select the type of CC you want to add, and you are ready to click in the numeric grid at the bottom of the piano roll screen, place your cursor at the measure and beat where you want the change to occur before you click the number (cursor will show as an arrow, and will clearly show where you are about to insert the CC)
Remember its a grid (horizontal and vertical location)
The vertical plane is where your number is picked, and the horizontal plane is where the timing/placement is determined. The CC is actually inserted at the horizontal location in the song where you click the numeric value.
Sorry for all the detail... some people require it, some don't. Better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
;-)
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Mick said:Can you clarify what you mean by RB/PTW?
Sure. Here's the typical terminology for PGmusic products we use.
BB=Band in a box
RB=Real Band.
PTW=Powertracks for Windows.
RI=Real Instruments
RT=Real Tracks
RD=RealDrums
Hope that helps.
Russ Anyday above ground is a good day Computer is Hp Pavillion Vision 6 Ghz quad core AMD processor 8 Gig memory 1 TB hard drive 6 GB hard drive Windows 7 Premium Loose nut behind the keyboard
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And to add one more, we also have PTPA=PowerTracks Pro Audio
John Laptop-HP Omen I7 Win11Pro 32GB 12TB SSD Desktop-ASUS-I7 Win10Pro 32GB 12TB SATA BB2026/UMC204HD&404HD/Casios/Cakewalk/Reaper/Studio One/Notion/Dorico/Noteworthy/NI/Halion/IK http://www.sus4chord.com (under rehosting/construction)
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Hi,
I am Rank: Punter with this digitech vocalist VL3d. I've read the manual cover to cover four times now and can't get the thing to do what it was doing before and am in denial that there may be something wrong with it; it's only a couple of months old and only has a few hours use on it. The problem I'm having is that I want to use it in MIDI Notes mode--if I'm not mistaken that means it will only generate harmonies that are exactly the notes I play on my keyboard--without using Music IQ. It works fine when I want to hear the mix of dry voice input plus the (wet) harmonies, but when I turn off the harmony to sing the parts in between the harmonies, it won't put out the dry voice signal without harmonies or the voice signal using the Pre-Effects without harmonies. I already tried a factory reset following the instructions in the manual and the factory reset doesn't seem to work. Otherwise, the thing seems to be working just fine. A few hours ago it was doing what I wanted it to. Anybody have any tips? Is there a midi setting out of whack or something...I hope?!
Thanks
Adam
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Quote:
...when I turn off the harmony to sing the parts in between the harmonies, it won't put out the dry voice signal without harmonies or the voice signal using the Pre-Effects without harmonies.
sounds like a problem that would be best solved with hands-on involvement. If you are not too far from the store where you bought it, you might have good luck taking it there to let the techs determine if the device is malfunctioning, or if you are doing something to cause the problem.
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